Giant children and their huge toys

[pennyplant]

I dreamed of just that this morning.  My mind must be working out a way of putting the Ns into perspective.  We talk here of the Ns and how they are frozen at a childlike stage of emotional development.  If we are finally able to disengage from them, it is then possible to put their behaviors into some kind of perspective that we can, well..... according to my dream.... we can get out of the way of.  Far, far, far out of the way.  Some of their "toys" are huge and have the potential for great harm in and of themselves.

If anyone goes to see a movie called "Waitress" you may notice a perfect portrayal of an N (the character of Earl) plus several mini-Ns.

I ran into one of my Ns a month ago.  I attended a day-long conference held at a local church.  My husband came along to act as my "spotter" as we figured she would attend.  She did.  The group which held the conference would be giving her an award at a separate meeting that night and so she would be soaking up the supply all day long.

As soon as we spotted her, we made moves to avoid her.  I disengaged and let my husband be the lookout while I concentrated on the conference and pretended I had self-confidence.  The keynote address was given in the sanctuary, a huge place with several hundred pews to sit on.  We sat on the far end near the back and settled in.  I didn't see N anywhere out of the corner of my eye and tried to relax.  Then suddenly there was a great deal of turbulence directly behind me.  No talking, just turbulence.  I thought, with a sinking feeling, Oh, it must be her.  Then I heard someone come up to them and say, Oh, you must be representing the County.  And a man answered.  So, I thought I was wrong.  My N would have talked up a storm and entertained with jokes and patter so as to impress the person who asked if she were representing the County.  So, I relaxed.  My husband glanced back, though, and then wrote me a note.  "Sue is right behind you."  I whispered back, "Well, that explains the wave of evil I sensed a minute ago."

She sat there, directly behind me, for a solid hour.  She did not say one word to her companion the entire time.  Not talking is completely out of character for her.

I began to get this image in my mind:  A little girl squatting on the stairs after bedtime, out of the viewing range of the grown-ups, and giggling to herself with hands over her mouth, so she doesn't give herself away.  Relishing the forbidden-ness of being up past bedtime and fooling the grownups.  Hee hee hee, they don't even know I'm right here listening to them.  Only she's not really listening.  She is paying attention to the rush she feels from being so naughty and not getting caught.

I certainly would not have expected her to speak to me as I have put out just the opposite message for years--stay away from me.   But I would have expected her to speak to her companion and maybe let me know in that way that I was in her "territory".  The sneakiness perhaps should not have surprised me as much as it did.  But thinking of her as a four-year-old with a little game or toy--now that makes sense.

My other N used to pretend to kill or injure me with his karate moves.  He also likes to show off his memory by reciting state capitols and characters from cartoons and favorite childhood commercials. 

Yesterday my neighbor N went to a spot I had been standing in not two minutes previous and gathered sticks for his little bonfire.  He shouted back to his wife for several minutes from that spot making sure he got the right sticks and making sure she knew he would bring back the good sticks for their bonfire.  Such a little boy! 

Such earnest, frightened little children making sure they still exist by making noise that all can hear including themselves.

It has taken me such a long time to stop being so frightened inside for long enough to disengage and assess accurately what is actually happening with these very stunted people.

I think this post is not really a thread because starting threads is a responsible activity and I'm not quite up to that responsibility these days.  I'm not ready to offer advice or leadership in this area and am not sure I will be!   Lately I have kind of doled out my spare time towards more self-centered healing--reading and thinking and practicing new skills of being myself and then trying to interact with others in a genuine way.  It takes all my energy sometimes.  It feels so different from before.  Disappointing at times.  Very good at other times.  Once in awhile I feel real and not like an impostor.

So, I just had this thing I wanted to say this morning.  It was too big to stay in my head.  Maybe it will give someone else food for thought, or a little laugh--as you imagine brightly colored giant toys flying through the air and landing on houses and in yards and making loud crackling noises while people run away and seek shelter and worry about meeting the big children from space who are throwing their big toys!  That's what I dreamed of this morning after going to bed thinking of Ns.

Yes, progress is being made.....

Pennyplant

[Ami]

Dear Penny,
  It helps to think of them as 'kids". It helps to take the intimidation out of it. Penny, could you elaborate on what it feels like to be "more real" for you?. I am going through this now. I am so happy about it.
 I would like to hear your thoughts about this,if you care to.                             Hugs to you  Ami

[Stormchild]

Pennyplant, this is a fantastic post.

Your imagery is so vivid, I can see exactly what you were experiencing, feel what you were feeling.

The sense of being stalked [her sitting right behind you] - my bet would be that you are right, that she slipped in silently hoping you wouldn't notice her presence, kept quiet to conceal herself, hoping to catch you talking about her - this assumes that she knows you know she's an N, that there's been some overt dissension between you on that issue specifically.

There would have been a lot of N supply for her in creating a scene, and such a rush for her in making difficulties for you on Her Special Day. Good for you and your husband, how you handled everything.

There are a lot of Ns in churches. Peck talks about this in People of the Lie, too. They love the trappings of respectability, and since many churches are authoritarian, the members of these churches are discouraged from critically examining the leadership. Perfect N hunting grounds.

That business of Ns moving into places immediately after we vacate them - the stick gathering fellow - yes, I've seen that too, it's like an animal marking territory. They have to pee on top of your traces.

I've seen that at work and in my personal life as well. Some of it, the stuff that is more destructive than harmless if they 'get away with it', can be addressed by laying bait in places where you don't care if they pee - when this is possible.

I've done that at work and once in graduate school with women who were very obviously 'after' something that I was working on accomplishing - they weren't after a specific thing, they just wanted to take something away from me - it was the taking away that was the payoff, not the thing being taken.

So I set up decoy things and pretended to be interested in them, and these women went after them, and I let the decoys go and went back to the stuff I was really interested in. The Ns got what they wanted, they thought, and I got them out of my hair.

I think the 'cleverness exhibitions' are a similar form of peeing, really. So much unhealthy competitiveness...

And I agree, awareness is the key to transcending this stuff.

Well said, well done, well thought -- well lived! ((((()))))

[Hopalong]

PP..
wonderful, illuminating anecdote, thanks for sharing it. You are sooo aware.
(Part of me, the always-in-hindsight-part, wonders what it would have been like to quietly get up and move seats...) 

And no worries about not following up or "leading" a thread. You know you can post and scoot. You have no obligations here, not even to answer questions (especially when you've been clear that you're not up for it).

So glad to hear your voice and the wonderful self-healing work you're doing.

hugs
Hops

[pennyplant]

Hi Ami,

I will try to explain what "feeling real" feels like to me. 

Every day of my life, within my memory, I have always behaved in whatever way I perceived to be correct from the point of view of others or what I thought others would require of me.  I made myself smaller and permeable and completely flexible.  I had no anchor within myself.  And I always did this quickly before people could be disappointed in me.  I was hyper-vigilant.

Now....  What is different?

I go slower now and give myself time to decide what my response in situations will be based on what I prefer or am good at.  When I do this I feel solid inside and like I physically take up the proper amount of space.  Perhaps that sounds odd but it does seem to be a physical sensation with me.

Sometimes the response that feels correct or natural to me is a disappointing one.  For example, I don't do well with calling people on the phone unless I know them very, very well or have a specific reason for calling.  This has gradually developed into something of a phobia.  I rarely call people just to chat and I hate to call people I don't know.

Well, I am in the position today of feeling obligated to call someone I don't know in the next couple of days.  I just don't want to do it.  It's a long story, but I just don't want to call this person.  And I feel disappointed in myself for a couple of reasons.  One is, I got myself into this situation by jumping into it without thought (old habits are hard to unlearn).  I forgot to give myself time to think and make a good decision.  And I feel disappointed because I haven't been able to conquer this particular fear.

Yet..... I feel real because I am letting myself feel this disappointment and not talking myself out of it.  I'm sitting with it.  I may well feel better tomorrow and be able to make the phone call and have my thoughts all gathered, etc.  I feel real because I'm disappointed in myself but not beating myself up about it as I would have done even just a year ago.  I'm learning that I am complex and that is okay.

So, feeling real to me means learning about my complexities as a person and feeling as generous towards myself about them as I would feel towards another person.  Extending the same open-mindedness to me, a real person, as I do to others.

At first feeling real felt boring and empty.  Once I let go of the circling thoughts, fantasies, and reprimands that were once the major part of my thought process, I didn't always know what to think about.  Often I try to just think about what I'm doing at the moment.  And it was boring and empty to think about washing my hair, or writing out a check, or sorting mail.  I could fully understand why most people do disruptive things to generate a little excitement into the day or they drink too much to feel better for awhile.  But I made myself do the boring things and think about them while I did them.  I made myself be present.  And that seems to be contributing to feeling "real".  And that helps me to feel comfortable taking up space and breathing air.

I don't know if this is how it feels to you or if it even answers the question.  And it's still a work in progress, of course.

It is still quite new to me to "feel real".  Comfortable, at ease, worthy.  When it occurs, I like it.

By the way, I am also another person whose life fell apart at 14.  It was an accumulation of things for me. And possibly for those who victimized me at that age.  I think that part of me is 14 still.  It explains a lot at any rate!

Stormy, Hops, I may be back in a couple of days.  Thanks for reading and commenting.

Pennyplant

[Stormchild]

(((((Pennyplant)))))

No obligation!

You know, you do create awesome posts, though. It's nice to hear from the gypsy part of town again. There's always something thought provoking going on there.

[reallyME]

Pennyplant,

Thank you so much for not keeping your thoughts to yourself but rather, sharing them with your friends on this board.  It helps people more than you realize, cause, every time you post, we post, and we finally feel HEARD and like we EXIST again too.

You said:  Once I let go of the circling thoughts, fantasies, and reprimands that were once the major part of my thought process, I didn't always know what to think about.

I just want to say, after my last episode with X, i came away from it, not knowing anymore who I was, especially without X.  I went through the same thing you have...that feeling of "if I don't talk to X every day, if there isn't some crisis going on with X, if I'm not getting blamed for something and having to come up with a defense, if I'm not trying to look just perfect like X's family and X want me to...if all of that has just ended, WHO THE H*** AM I?  Gosh, how WELL I remember that empty, lonely feeling! 

I literally began to start doing two things:

I began journalling like this:  take a piece of paper and write columns on it for FEELING, WHEN I FELT IT, HOW IT FELT, WHAT I WANTED TO DO, WHAT I ENDED UP DOING.

Doing this, I quickly learned my "trigger patterns" concerning X.  i began to see that certain activities, songs, situations, would remind me of X, and I was able to gradually learn to distract myself from those things, because I STARTED SEEING WHAT I WAS DOING...that is the KEY, my friends....Dr Phil says "you can't change, what you don't acknowledge."  I began acknowledging that I was stuck in a cycle of needing X in my life and getting used to all the drama and crisis surrounding X.

The other thing I did, was I told myself that, if I had to survive (prayed for God to TAKE ME HOME AFTER THE X SITUATION OF REJECTION AND FACE TO FACE DEVALUING, but, of course I didn't die, so I had to face life and begin living again)...since I had to continue LIVING and wanted to do so as MYSELF, rather than an X-clone, I needed to conduct a desperate search to find out who I used to be before X.

I began literally taking one SECOND at a time, then, when I could live through a second and survive, I tried on MINUTE, then I tried for 2, 3, 5, 10, 15, 30...I LITERALLY had to re-learn how to exist and live each millisecond of the day, without letting the pain of losing X, stopping ME from wanting to live.  I was very suicidal, so this was the HARDEST thing I have ever endured...but, ya know what?...after a while...after deciding to find out again, what hobbies I enjoyed, what beliefs I had, what goals I wanted to push toward...after a long long while, one day, I looked back and said "wow!  I dont' even remember feeling lost and alone.  I don't recall what it felt like to miss X so bad that I didn't want to live and breathe without her.  One day, I FOUND ME!!!  really ME.

~RM

[pennyplant]

Wow, Laura, what an excellent description, both of how it felt to lose yourself and the process you used to regain yourself.  I'm impressed as well with your self-discipline.  I'm not that disciplined and do my journaling and list-making very haphazardly.  But what I have been doing has worked for me and your method is so very good for you and probably many others as well.  We do have the moment by moment, minute by minute, hour by hour, and so on, in common, though.  I think it makes the changes and learning less overwhelming.

You know, I didn't realize during those times, that I had lost myself by being so involved emotionally with these Ns.  It is only now that I have gained so much distance and growth that I can compare and understand just how little of me was left.  And it wasn't only with Ns.  I lost myself with just about everyone I came into contact with.  It was my complete approach to life, for my entire life.  That was certainly a dead-end path.

This new way is harder, I think, but better also.  I'm committed to becoming my true self.

Thank you, Laura, for your reply.  I think it will help many, many people who need something concrete like this to work with.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

  , Stormy--when I used to work for the N (who hid behind me in the church at the conference) we moved our office to a new building one year.  She was constantly going over there to check on the remodeling and bringing us along and I used to joke about us going over there to pee in the corners!  I knew how territorial she was but, at that time, it was still funny to me.  She was a little shocked at first that I came up with that metaphor, but then she embraced it.  Typical, huh?

So, she is aware that I know what she is.  Yes, I believe she does know that I know.  I have seen behind her mask.  And I spent enough time with her on a very constant and consistent basis to know exactly how she operates.  And I also know it is very hard to explain to others what that is like to spend that much time with that kind of person.  Much of it sounds trivial and ridiculous.  To outsiders.  And those she has an easy time of entertaining and charming.  She cannot fool me!  Ever!  And she knows that.

The competition aspect--I have always thought of myself as competitive.  But I am re-thinking that.  In fact, my natural response often is to retreat from competition.  Possibly what I thought of as my competitive side was actually me feeling threatened or like I was about to lose something more than just a contest or game.  For example, as a junior high and senior high school student, I ran for student council all the time.  I didn't necessarily want to hold office.  I wanted to be voted for.  I wanted the most votes because then I would know that people liked me.  I never did win an office, though.  But I kept hoping.  There is a difference between wanting to be a member of student council and wanting to win votes.  I didn't know that then, but I do now.

I think with Ns, it is similar.  They have to have it all because otherwise they are nothing.  Or they don't know what they are if they don't have it all.  The terror of not knowing, not being.  Fortunately I'm not so afraid of not knowing or not being anymore.  So, I can go through this.  We can go through this.  They cannot.

PP

[pennyplant]

(Part of me, the always-in-hindsight-part, wonders what it would have been like to quietly get up and move seats...) 

The thing with me is, I was already being triggered by her before I even got to the conference.  I suspected she would probably be there and I was considering not even going because of that.  At first the coast was clear and I was starting to relax.  Then my husband spotted her and I immediately got the urge to run as fast as I could.  My stomach tied itself in knots and my blood pressure increased and I just felt ill.  She does trigger PTSD in me.  In fact, I was just about panicking.  My husband was a good support.  He hated for my day to get ruined by her but was willing to either take me home or stay.

I decided to play it by ear moment by moment and make up my mind once I knew whether I'd have to spend the day with her or not.

When I say I was pretending to be self-confident, well, that was exactly what I was doing.  I sat there with self-confident posture, body language and facial expression.  I forced myself to listen to the speaker and just sit in my own skin.  When she slithered into the pew behind me, I truly did feel that wave of evil.  But since I could pretend I didn't know it was her because I was paying attention to other more important matters, I was able to maintain my body-language.  And I gave myself the option to leave at any time that I thought I might be in a position to lose my dignity.

Once we broke up into groups for the various workshops, I saw that I was heading in an opposite direction from her and knew then that we had picked different tracks and I would be safe the rest of the day.  That is when I decided to stay.  It turned out well.  On our way to the workshops, I met up with a lady I know who we had helped one winter night when her husband fell in their driveway.  I had never known if she realized it was us or not, but that day, she made sure to thank us and talked about it.  That was good to hear.

Anyway, it has occurred to me I could have just turned the tables on her that day and looked right at her as we got up and said, "Oh, hi Sue!  How have you been?"  I know for a fact that she pretends I left her employ on good terms.  I have always supposed that she pretends like that so no one will believe me if I say bad things about her.  Another friend who knows the situation thinks she actually feels very guilty about it.  We do know Ns have guilt, but they cannot allow themselves to acknowledge it.  So, my friend may be right.

But I don't want to engage in anything at all with her.  Not even to make a point.  Even though she is not a relative or family member, I pretty much have to go no contact with her as much as is possible.  She triggers me badly.  Like I described above, I get physical symptoms if I spend time with her or even hearing of her.  Maybe because the people in my past who have hurt me or frightened me the most have been peers not family.  It will be a long time before I can conquer that aspect of society.  If I even want to.

I just think there are better people for me to try to have in my life.  And Ns can't change so why would I bother with her?  No reason I can think of.  Regular people are challenging enough for me.  It may take me a lifetime just to figure that out!!!  The Ns can have all the toys.  I don't want what they want.

Hops, I have been way behind on the threads these days but have been reading yours about your daughter.  Glad you're able to talk about it.  Maybe just that alone will help, plus all the kind responses.  It's such a complicated thing to want so badly to understand our most important relationships.  A day at a time, I guess.

PP

[CB123]

When I say I was pretending to be self-confident, well, that was exactly what I was doing.  I sat there with self-confident posture, body language and facial expression.  I forced myself to listen to the speaker and just sit in my own skin.  When she slithered into the pew behind me, I truly did feel that wave of evil.  But since I could pretend I didn't know it was her because I was paying attention to other more important matters, I was able to maintain my body-language.  And I gave myself the option to leave at any time that I thought I might be in a position to lose my dignity.

Yay, Pennyplant!!!!  I can just SEE you!

CB

[pennyplant]

Yes, yes.  The movie was very good at showing that what might seem like little, trivial, quirks of personality are really just their version of a bullhorn going MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

They all heard about him and sort of figured why she was unhappy.  But when they saw the behaviors themselves, they knew he was bad for her.

The blaring of the car horn, EVERY SINGLE TIME he pulled into a driveway or parking lot, really cinched it for me.  And yes, when he made her promise she would never love the baby more than him.  He was just so empty and infantile.  The movie portrayed this so well, I have to believe the writer knew a person just like this.

PP

[Hopalong]

Thanks, PP...
there is no overstating what a huge step that was for you.

I am beyond impressed and your dignity is untouchable, no matter what.

Good for you.

(And thank you for your kind thoughts for me too.)

One thing I love about this board and the people here is that we're never bored with each other
(or if we are we're nice enough to hide it!) 

I just appreciate so much, all-a y'all, how you can write about just anything, subtle shifts or titantic fights or
simple insights or just anything that's about our lives, our growth, and our struggles...

and someone will respond, care, and have a comment. Even just a "I hear you."

It's a marvel I'm grateful for every day.

hugs
Hops

[reallyME]

I am thinking about Earl saying that the woman promised not to love the baby more than him...a situation involving 2 Xes.

One X went out of town and the other X was visiting me.  When the second X found out about how close I was with first X, she asked me if I was going to forget her when first X came home.  I promised I wouldn't...I kept that promise up until I realized that second X was trying to get first X to ditch me and hook up with her. 

Eventually, I left second X, stayed with first X and did well till the DEVALUATION process began and ended with eventual replacement and abandonment.

[Bella_French]

Pennyplant, this is a fantastic post.

Your imagery is so vivid, I can see exactly what you were experiencing, feel what you were feeling.

The sense of being stalked [her sitting right behind you] - my bet would be that you are right, that she slipped in silently hoping you wouldn't notice her presence, kept quiet to conceal herself, hoping to catch you talking about her - this assumes that she knows you know she's an N, that there's been some overt dissension between you on that issue specifically.

There would have been a lot of N supply for her in creating a scene, and such a rush for her in making difficulties for you on Her Special Day. Good for you and your husband, how you handled everything.

There are a lot of Ns in churches. Peck talks about this in People of the Lie, too. They love the trappings of respectability, and since many churches are authoritarian, the members of these churches are discouraged from critically examining the leadership. Perfect N hunting grounds.

That business of Ns moving into places immediately after we vacate them - the stick gathering fellow - yes, I've seen that too, it's like an animal marking territory. They have to pee on top of your traces.

I've seen that at work and in my personal life as well. Some of it, the stuff that is more destructive than harmless if they 'get away with it', can be addressed by laying bait in places where you don't care if they pee - when this is possible.

I've done that at work and once in graduate school with women who were very obviously 'after' something that I was working on accomplishing - they weren't after a specific thing, they just wanted to take something away from me - it was the taking away that was the payoff, not the thing being taken.

So I set up decoy things and pretended to be interested in them, and these women went after them, and I let the decoys go and went back to the stuff I was really interested in. The Ns got what they wanted, they thought, and I got them out of my hair.

I think the 'cleverness exhibitions' are a similar form of peeing, really. So much unhealthy competitiveness...

And I agree, awareness is the key to transcending this stuff.

Well said, well done, well thought -- well lived! ((((()))))

LOL! Oh Stormchild, you have such gift for articulating the finer, more complex aspects of their dynamics. I have to thank you for this post:) I know that `feigning disinterest' has been a defense I have used with N's. I've just never seen it put into words before.

I am so happy to have met you and to be reading your words.