Child therapy

[growler100]

Hope - The pics with kids didn't qualify as child porn, only tastless. The other day her kids seemed fine, only M had changed. As far as the mom and drugs and alcohol, I can't say.
I did meet her in a bar. She did ask me shortly after meeting if I did drugs. Told her no. She couldn't believe that I had never taken a bunch of pills and went on "vacation" for a few days. Only saw her drunk once when I had S (2 y/o) and she dropped S and G also off at my house. She was to pick them up at 7:00 pm and didn't show up till 11:00 pm. She said it was her birthday and the people at the bar threw a party for her. I had already put the kids to bed. She wanted to hang out at my house for 2-3 hours and drink coffee before she took them home. She didn't appear to be in that bad of shape so I said since their already asleep why don't you go on home and come get them in the morning. She jumped up, grabbed them out of bed and roared off. I have never seen her appear high on drugs but that's another of those subject where I have had alot of blips from others. You must understand that the only time I have seen her for the past several years is pick up and drop off and I rarely talk to her then.

The PI thing might work or it might be alot of money down the drain. I think all I would catch was her cheating on her husband who lives 125 miles away.

Do you think it's possible that S could be misleading me? I don't think so but I'm not real sure of much anymore.

                                                                                                                                Bless you all
                                                                                                                                               Alan

[Certain Hope]

Alan,

I may be missing something here, but in your first post...you said that you were shocked by what S has told you
recently about her life with mom.

But I only see this one comment from you about what S may have told you (from your reply #15)

Quote:  S has always talked about how G gets to do whatever he wants and spends half (?) the nights at friends and brings a few friends home to spend the other nights. She doesn't even get to have friends. Mom tells G and GF and S she is going to take them to the movies tomorrow and the next day G and GF decide they don't want to go to the movies but rather go to GF house. Nmom says OK and haul them there. S asks Nmom, "Can we go to the movies?"--"No, Mommy can't afford it."

Has S told you something else besides this?

Hope

[tayana]

Alan,

I did not have therapy as a child, although I wish I had.  My parents don't believe in that sort of thing, but I would have benefited greatly from it.  I am considering taking my son, who is 10, to a therapist.  He and I lived with my nmom since he was born and the experience was very negative for both of us.  He has some real self-esteem issues, as do I, but I want to wait to see how our new living situation affects him before starting therapy.  He doesn't like change all that much, so I don't know how much therapy will help him.

As for myself, I did see a counselor as a young adult, although my parents don't know about it.  I was in college and away from home at the time.  I found the experience very helpful.  He was the first person who gave me an idea that the things my nmom told me weren't quite right.  When I started seeing him, I was barely eating, had lost about 12 pounds in two weeks, and he threatened to put me in the hospital if I didn't eat.  I made an effort to avoid that.  I wasn't quite suicidal, but I was really depressed.  He did help me find some direction and help through a really dark time in my life.

I do work with a therapist now, and I find it very helpful.  I am looking for a good one for my son while waiting to see what sort of changes I see in him now that we are no longer under my nmom's constant control.  I have seen some positive changes, and I see things we have to work on.  It's really hard for me right now because I have so many issues that I have to deal with as well as what my son has going on.

Best of luck to you.

[growler100]

OK - CB - I'm single, have been for years. Came across M ad 4 yrs. ago after she divorced. Have tracked her ad name since. It's a way of keeping in touch with out the other knowing.
I don't know that a PI won't find much. I don't have money to throw around on speculation. I do know that when I met her she told me she couldn't have kid because she had a hysterectomy after her sons birth. 2 months later she is pg and I ask her about the hysterectomy and she says the doctor wanted her to have one but she didn't. I didn't really care as I was nearly 40 and this was my only child. She seemed nice at the time , just a little weird. To shorten this story- when my daughter was born, I filled out the birth certificate registration card and gave S her first and middle names and left the last blank. Put down that I was the father. Gave the card to the mother and told her it would be nice if she had my last name. One month later I had received insurance paper on S Pedi. bill as I had put her on my insurance when she was born. All bills previous I paid out of pocket. Mom says , "I don't think you can do that." I said "what?"  She said, "put her on your insurance." I said, "Sure I can." She said, "But she doesn't have your last name." I said, "That doesn't matter, I'm on the birth certificate as the father." She said, "No your not." That was the first big slap in my face and if I must admit it, It has pretty much been a bobsled ride to hell from there. Over the years I have found 4 other guys who were having sex with her at the same time I was. She was telling 2 of them that they were the father. It's all about SCAM, SCAM, SCAM with her. That is why I think I know what a PI will find. I had a crazy job when she was born but I spent 1-3 hours every day with her at her moms. Mom was fine with that but I could never take S outside where we could be seen by anyone. When S was 1.5 y/o I quit my job. filed for a DNA test to prove paternity. Yes, Mine. Joy! Go to court first thing mom does is wave her hand to judge. Tells judge I haven't seen S for 2 years. (Bear in mind S is only 19 mo at the time.) Tells the judge that I have never done any thing for S. (Bear in mind that I paid for everything concerning S to that point.) Tells the judge that S has a 700.00 ER bill that I refuse to pay from 3 mo. ago. Tells judge S got her arm caught in shopping cart at K-Mart and went into great detail about the crying and screaming and everyone trying to help and firetruck and ambulance arriving and how they saved S and how she was so upset she almost forgot to pay for her purchase and how the K-Mart manager wanted S and mom to go in the ambulance to the hospital and have S checked out but she said no, that she would take S to the hospital. Judge asked why I wouldn't pay the bill. I said that I didn't know anything about it
I then said that if something happened in the store, K-Mart would pay the bill anyway. The judge told me to shut up and sit down. Judge ordered me to pay 700.00 bill and I was fine with that. Asked mom if she had paperwork from hospital that I could have. She said no. Went to hospital, bill was 160.00 from when S was 9 mo. old. ER report says- ( month old who was apparently in a shopping cart and got her left leg and foot caught in between the wire mesh of the shopping cart, with some effort was extricated.
PHISICAL EXAM- Vitale signs stable, afebrile. Generally well developed, well nourished white female, happy, playfull. Very much in no distress. Exam is focused to the lower extremity. Showes mild erythmia to the medial and malleolar regiom of the ankle. Range of motion is intact. Direct pressure on the malleolar region produces no pain. Mother quite satisfied with care given. I called K-Mart and talked to the manager. He looked on their daily log for that date and had no entry of this incedent. She didn't know what happened to her child, where it happened, how it happened or what it cost to fix. She did know how to piss a judge off at a father. The problem is when you can't prove she is lying until 3 days after you've left court. The judge ordered mediation to work out a visitation schedule. Our mediator was a college intern,  about 21, who was engaged and looking forward to being married and having children. In Kansas, court and mediation are two different horses, What is said in each can't be co-mingled. Mom told mediator that she loved me and since S was born spent every weekend at my house trying to get me to bond with S, but that I was mean to her and made her cry. Guess how that went. She plays people like their fiddles. Yes, I can go on and on.

Hope- S has always told me snipits. Now I am going to write book for you! No, not tonight. I'm tired. See you all tomorrow. Please don't doubt my intentions on this board. They are all good and they are all for S. I will never be able to relate to any of you on your level and I'm trying to prevent my daughter from being able to either. Your help is greatly appreciated.              Bless you all     Alan

[Certain Hope]

Okay, Alan... just reviewing the facts concerning S here...

She's isolated from friends, alone in a house with a mom who consistently lies, and a 17 yo half-brother with ocd who was fired from his first job for stealing.
Mom takes S to work with her, so there's no outside contact with anyone but you and those friends she gets to see while you have visitation.
When you try to talk to S about her desire to live with you, "she goes blank and won't say a word".

Just a few of my thoughts...

First, I'm not sure what difference this makes, but it seems to me that mom's description fits "Borderline Personality Disorder", with plenty of histrionic stuff tossed in... her description of the drama at Kmart when S was 9 months old, her lies to the mediator about how she tried so hard to get you to bond with newborn S... it just all sounds quite BPD to me.

And it sounds like S has now been sworn to silence... but under what threat?

At what age does the Kansas court begin to consider the wishes of the child in matters of residential custody... and are you prepared to have S live with you full time?

Mom has cut the fathers of her other children out of the picture completely, but she's allowed you to remain in contact...
do you suppose she's keeping S so close to her (taking her along to work, keeping her from friends) in order to shelter her from what she thinks "went wrong" with her other children?  Or are you just the only dad who fought for his rights?

She wants all of her children to be the same.
Or does she?
I kinda doubt it.
Maybe she just can't/won't face up to the mess she's helped to create with the other kids but has no clue how to prevent it from happening to S. It's as though mom is trying to reinvent her own life through S... a sort of last ditch effort to do it right.

And you have hopes and dreams for S... your only child.

And then there's S, who needs to find her own voice so that she can be who God made her to be... which doesn't revolve around either redeeming her mother's lost opportunities or fulfilling her father's dreams, no matter how positive those may be.

Well, I don't know how useful you'll find any of the above, Alan, but I do see that, at some point, you'll have to make the decision whether to make an all-out effort to gain full residential custody of S... or make the best of the visitation you do have with this little girl and continue offering her as many opportunities as possible to be herself.

One suggestion... you may find some helpful resources through your local domestic violence center. Those folks take emotional abuse quite seriously. They may be able to connect you with a counselor who can relate to S at the level she needs right now. I'll be praying.

Hope

[motheroffour]

Hey Alan,

Been reading this thread and I don't suppose I could add anymore wisdom to the discussion other than to say that if I were your daughter, I would want to find a place where I was safe.  Safe from manipulations and judgements and threat.  A place where I was understood and valued....meaning my personality, my pain, my feelings, my ideas.  A place that didn't have shame and blame and proper balance of responsibility.  I think that I could have benefitted from therapy when I was young and in pain.  But it was only a piece of the puzzle.  I wonder if your own education and your own ability to be a "counselor" for her might play a more profound role.  A therapist can teach and support.  But can't be a parent and can't give the kind of day to day attention to the situation like a parent can.  I don't know your sweet D and don't know her specific needs but if I could change anything in my past, it would be to have one of the adults in my life (wouldn't have mattered who), create an environment that I could trust to be "clean" from all the confusion and mixed messages. A place that had an environment that would have told me I was loved and valued and needed and that taught me wisdom and helped me to focus on healthy growing up stuff instead of taking care of the adults in my life and blaming myself or thinking it was my fault.    If I could have oriented myself to THAT and felt like I had a person and a place that was mine, I wouldn't be in so much pain today.  Then, I think I could have dealt with my mother's dyfunction in healthier and more self-protective ways.  Instead, I felt like I had to dismantle myself in order to make everybody happy. And no one was working towards my needs.  (Not saying it well. Hope you get the idea.)

One more thing, the more that you can stay free of the N influence with boundaries and detachment, the better for your daughter.  The N's seem to get so much control.  Like with the courts.  She knows how to work the system and the people in it.  If you can become one of the people, she can't "work" then you become all the more "safe" for your D.



Much love and concern for your sweet girl,
mof4

[growler100]

Hope - I have looked at BPD symptoms in the past and again today. Some I'm sure don't apply, several I don't have a clue, but the ones I do see are also crossover to NPD. When I first started trying to figure out what I was dealing with, I thought Pathological Liar, (with a very vivid imagination) but that didn't seem to fit with other quirks that I'd seen or heard.
I then moved on to Sociopath and Psychopath and I recognized more symptoms but not enough, (at least that I new of) and my feeling was "naw, that's not it". These searches were off and on over the years whenever she did something really weird. What brought me to NPD started in May this year. My Bday is May 6, the rural FD has a BBQ fund raiser every year
and for a few years now I have had S on that day and we have gone. She and I love BBQ, and it's more of a huge rural community picnic. She has a blast playing on the trucks and running around with the kids while the adults visit. This year the BBQ was on May 5, starting at 5:00 pm. I didn't have S that weekend but would have her all day for my Bday. Had S
Tue. before BBQ, when dropping her off I asked mom if I could have S Evening of BBQ instead of Bday as S enjoys the BBQ. Mom asked S if she wanted to do that. S said "yes". Mom asked when it was and I said it started at 5:00 and that I would like to pick her up around 4:00 - 4:30. Mom said, "I'll have to think about what time works best and let you know."
( In the 12 years I have known her, she has never made a normal quick decision, it's always "I'll let you know", "I'll have to get back with you on that", on and on.) 2:30 pm May 5
the phone rings, caller ID says it's the mom-Me-Hello Her-S DOESN'T WANT TO BE WITH YOU! Me- Why is that? Her- SHE JUST DOESN'T! Me -I thought we had plans, can I speak to her? Her- NO Me - why not? Her- she's at J house and I called her to see if she wanted to go to the BBQ and she said no. I said "fine" and hung up.Next Tues. I had S and asked her why she didn't want to go to the BBQ. All I got was a blank stare and no answer. I said mom told me you were at J house playing with A & H (S neices) 14 & 13 and that she called and asked if you wanted her to pick you up to go to the BBQ and that you said "no".Another blank stare. I asked,"Your mother did call didn't she?". S said "Yes, she just asked if I was having fun and to give the phone to J." She looked a little sad and said, "I forgot about the BBQ." I told her that was OK as long as she was having fun. Asked if G spent the weekend at J house too, she said no and that J had a really bad headache so she stayed in her bedroom all weekend.

May 22- Tues. dropped S off, reminded mom that S had dental check up May 25 at 3:00 pm ( mom has never taken any of her kids to the dentist, so I take S), it's my weekend starting 4:30 on the 25th, so I tell her that I need to pick S up at 2:30. She says, "I'll call and let you know". May 25- 2:15 pm, haven't heard from mother, so I call her. I remind her of the dentist appointment. She says, "SHIT, THAT'S TODAY? S said it was next Friday." She drops S off and we make it on time only to find out that we both need a filling.

May 29- Tues. dropped S off. Reminded mom that S had dental appointment June 1 2:00 pm (mine was at 3:00 pm). She gave me a dumb look and said, "You have her Friday, that's when your vacation starts." (9 days, 1st week of June beginning the Friday before at 4:30 pm) I said , "Yes, but her appointment is at 2:00, I'll have to pick her up early."
She said, "I'll have to call you."

June 1- Mom calls 1:00 pm, asks, "When are the appointments?" I tell her 2:00 and 3:00. She asks, "Which one is S? I say it doesn't matter and that S usually goes first. She says, "OK, I'll take S at 2:00." I tell her fine and figured that she wasn't going to let me have S until 4:30. (This would be typical) I get to dentist at 3:00, hoping S and mom would be there and that mom would leave S with me then. Nope, gone. Get done. go to the drop off/pickup place at 4:30, no mom and S. Waited awhile called her cell, someone answered and hung up, tried several more times, no answer, left message that I was at the Junction. (exchange point) Waited 45 min. (the grace period). Headed for home madder than hell!
Half way home she calls- Me-Hello Her-(laughing)"YOUR WHERE!?" Me-I was at the Junction but I'mon the way home now. My vacation was suppose to start today. Her-"That's what I thought too, but then S reminded me it doesn't until next week so I checked the paper work and she was right." Me-No, it starts today. Her-"Well, I'm sure it's next week. I'll
check the calander again and if I'm wrong I'll bring her right out to your house. Let me check and I'll call you right back." She never called back. I tried her a few times but her phone was shut off.

Blaming S, so blatantly, is something new. I was maaaaad and started searching for a reason she was doing that. Somewhere along the way I came across Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers and it was like, BINGO! It covered everything that I had witnessed over the years and some that I suspected. This was June 3.

June 5- Tues. Picked up S. Told her that I found something on the internet that might help her understand her mother. Got home and as I read and explained, her eyes were as big as silver dollars.

Hope - This is when she started telling me about her life with mom. As I read  each section I would talk to her about it as most of the wording is way over her head, some over mine too. When I would get done I would ask her if mom was like that at home. Her response to the majority of the characteristics was "Uuuh, huh" (Yes)

2 Highlights were (1) She screams and yells at S and G a lot and says she is going to break their things. (In 12 years I have never seen her raise her voice to any of her kids.)
I asked S why her mom did that and she said, "I don't know" I asked were you doing something wrong? She said, "No." (2) Bathroom thing- when I got to that I just asked her if her mom ever looked at her poop or pee. She looked kind of shocked and said "no". I said the reason I'm asking is because when G was about 8 I was at moms' house sitting at the kithen table with her when G and one of his pals came blasting in the house and G went straight to the bathroom and closed the door. Your mom jumped up from the table and went in the bathroom, poor G was sitting on the pot and his pal started laughing and yelled," D (mom), WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!" She never said a word, closed the door and stayed until they both came out. G never said a word and his pal and I just looked at each other. Mom sat back down and we went back to talking. It was weird, but to G and mom it seemed natural. About 3 years ago, mom called one morning and said she was tking S to the Dr. I asked why and she said that she thought S had a urinary tract infection. I asked why she thought that. She said that S pee smelled funny. I asked if she smelled her kids pee. She hung up. She did take S to the Dr. and she had a mild sinus infection. When I got the insurance paperwork there was a 30.00 charge for urinalysis lab work that the insurance wouldn't pay because it was a sinus infection diagnosis. The mom insisted the Dr. do a urinalysis test. After I explained these to S ,I asked if her mom watched her go to the bathroom. She said , "No.............she always comes in the bathroom." I asked her if mom always goes in the bathroom with G and she shook her head "Yes".

I would tell more but I've been here long enough!!!!

In Kansas the court will listen to a 12 y/o at the Judges discretion.

I doubt that I would ever get custody. In Kansas the law says that emotional and physical abuse are equal. It's all about the Judge, if he can't see the damage it doesn't exist unless a 3rd party professional can convince him/her. If S went to therapy and the therapist went, "Holy cow, I've got to get this kid out of there!!!!! JUDGE, JUDGE, JUDGE" The Judge
would take a look at the mom and her other 3 smiling, complacent, compliant kids and go, "No way, there must be a mistake here."

My concern is for S and less for custody right now.

"
mof4- Thanks, It's like I always tell S, "Your a super duper daughter, the best one I have!" She grins and says,"I'm the only daughter you have!" I say , "So, if I had 10 you would all be super duper daughters, the best ones I have!" I try not to be a "therapist" but I always try to explain things to S when they occur.

                                                                                                                                 Thanks for your help   Alan

[Certain Hope]

Alan,

I get it. I know it's an awful lot to try to type up and communicate, but what you've posted here certainly allows mom's patterns to become glaringly obvious. The control freakery is definitely abundant throughout 

Re: the possibility of your gaining full custody... those three smiling, complacent kids may not be such great witnesses if your lawyer came to court prepared with character (or rather, lack thereof) evidence on each of them, but the whole thing would no doubt become a war of monumental proportions, during which your energies and *all your other resources  could become so sapped as to render you of little support to S - which is what she really needs. Engaging N in battle becomes such a consuming project  So yeah, revolting as I find the whole situation, I do get it.

With S already approaching a turning point in her life in so many ways, at her age... preparing to enter mid-school soon, I imagine, not to mention puberty... I think that Mof4 said it best, as far as what will most benefit S.  I'd just be very cautious not to let the N word out of the bag, because as she does grow and begin using her voice, her mom will trace that directly back to you.

CB mentioned techniques that her sons learned, to deal with N games. I don't know what those are, eactly, but sure sounds like they'd benefit S ! 

Just wishing you both the very best, Alan,

Hope

[motheroffour]

Alan,

Just one more thought with regards to therapy......

I think if you do pursue someone, I would be very picky about who I chose to see.  One that is for kids, yes, but I would even research what their approach or school of thought is and then explore their therapy methodology.  I think there are some spectacular therapists out there but I also think therapy can mess with a kids head and do even more damage.

--mof4

[growler100]

HI - Hope & mof4 -I have a friend, female, who I worked with for 5 years. We became friends and and still are tho we haven't worked together for 8 years. She and S are friends and we have all done many things together over the years. She was fresh out of college and her parents were divorced. I don't know for how long but she and her younger brother lived with their dad. She would often be upset at her mother and things her mother said and did. I always figured it was some kind of fight thing between M/D going through the kids.
She always talked highly of her dad.

I called her a few days ago and when she answered, I asked if I could ask her a personal question. Sure. How are you getting along with your mother? I don't. Have you ever heard the word Narcissist before?..........yeah. do you think your mother is a Narcissist? Yes. I think S mom might be too. DUUUUU!! I could have told you that! I told her I was thinking about taking S to a therapist. She said I don't know if you knew but I've been seeing a therapist for 3 years. Coulda knocked me over with a feather! We talked awhile until she had
to go to work, but I asked if she would be interested in spending some time with S, give her someone she could relate to that she knows and likes. She said sure.

I would appreciate opinions on this. Should I be there or would that be uncomfortable for S. This wouldn't be "therapy", but like 2 people finding somthing in common to talk about.


Another question. Is facination with death something related to Ns?

[Hopalong]

Alan,
I would give S private space with her friend...and with a skilled superb child therapist, weekly without fail.

I don't know if I'm right or wrong about this but I have a hunch that beyond the basics, her safety, and any overt issues you need to deal with....you might need to back off from asking S too much about her mother, and from discussing her mother's disorder in much detail with her. She needs relief from all the tension, and being transferred between her crazy mother and a father who's subtly grilling her might mean she has nowhere to turn, inside. That could be why she goes blank.

It just sounds like terrible internal pressure to me.

Again, I don't know if I'm right. But part of me is thinking your daughter is caught between a rock and a very hard place. Her mother is toxic but she loves her...and she loves you. Her psychic survival is at stake right now. If she's fragile, she might need you to help her relax and be serene and FORGET the drama when she's with you.

And you're a lawyer, right? Perhaps you might be bearing down too hard on your daughter's most vulnerable places in her pysche with your questioning...is that possible? It might be hard to realize how overwhelming it might be for her.

DO keep communicating and loving...I just wonder if there could be a boundary issue. It sounds both so grave and so potentialy invasive...is your daughter still laughing? Taking pleasure in life?

I'm hoping for strength and calm and much wisdom for you, and some ease for your daughter's broken heart.

Hops

[growler100]

Hops- Thanks for the post, but shame on you for calling me a dirty name! NO, I'm NOT a Lawyer!!!!

I'm self-employed as a welder and steel fabricater.

My times with S are Tues. after school till 7:30pm, during summer 8:00am till 7:00pm  Every other weekend 4:30pm Fri. till 4:30pm Sun. 1 week (9 days) June, July,August

This makes it hard to schedule some thing like therapy on a regular basis, unless therapists work on weekends. I doubt the mother would take her on her time.

Talking to S about mom or even mentioning mom has had a visible stress on her as far back as 2y/o.  Even now, I can ask," what do you want for supper"  I'll rattle off 5-6 things.
(I like to cook) She'll say, "no,no,no,no." I'll ask, "Well, what's your favorite thing at moms',I'll make that." She freezes up and won't say a thing. That is her reaction to many questions of this nature. I had favorite foods, games, toys, activities, on and on when I was a kid. It seems like she doesn't and that worries me. Surely asking stuff like that wouldn't stress her, but it seems to.             
                                                                                        Thanks for the help    Alan

[Hopalong]

Hi Alan,
I like lawyers..I think.
I like welders and steel fabricators better, though. 

Hmmm. I think therapy has to be Tuesdays, right after school. And then y'all have a nice supper together. Or bowling. Kid needs some laughter and stress relief.

Jeez. That really is a frustrating thought, that weekend parenting automatically is an obstacle to therapy for a child.

You hang in. Hope I did help...not sure, but I hope to.

Hops

[growler100]

hops- I get what your saying- You must be from the big city where every thing is readily available. For me it's 25 mi. to school, leave school by 3:25 drive 30 mi. to closest town that I MIGHT find therapist in. Hour long session(?). 20 mi. back home, nuke a dinner, say hi, load up and 11 mi. to drop off. mi. is miles. Welcome to Kansas.   Alan
                                                                                                                                                                           

[motheroffour]

Alan,

You sound like you have good people around you that understand the N perdicament.  I am happy for you.  Sounds like a hopeful situation!!

best wishes to you and your D.
mof4