Child therapy

[growler100]

mof4- thank you- This realization of Ns is new to me and scaring the piss out of me. My friend that I spoke of, during our conversation, asked if I remembered saying(I don't),"Be nice to your Mother, maybe you'll need a kidney some day","I would rather DIE THAN GET A F....ING KIDNEY FROM MY MOTHER" I was thinking to myself, "This, after 3 years in therapy?"
I'm sure everyone here understands this, it just makes me sad.

Over the years 99% of S complaints have been about mom lying, which I'd always known of. I always told her "You can pick your nose, You can pick your friends but you can't pick your family. Your mom is the only mom you'll ever have and you don't have to trust her or believe her but you have to love her.

Please tell me I didn't make things worse.

The friend also said the therapist won't say, "Yes, your mother is a N" I understand that the therapist can't do that, but got the impression that friend needed that to be a starting point to heal or recover or get better. Got the impression therapy was about how do you feel now.

Is this a good approach by the therapist?

[motheroffour]

To tell you the truth, Alan, I am new to the N realization as well.  And I have been scared at times.  But you have less control than I do.  That is scarier.  My children aren't harms way the way yours are.  And I am so sorry for that.  That is why I say educate yourself as much as possible.  Then you will be able to know what to say to her.  You want her to respect the authority of her mother.  All children, I think need that lesson.  Maybe she will need a more specialized focus for how to still respect her mother but to still be able find healthy coping skills.  Sounds like getting custody would be a battle.  But, maybe it is worth it, depending on how destructive this mother could be.  If she was getting sexually assulted, wouldn't you break down the doors to get her out?

Again, I am no authority and have so little formal education on this stuff. I just know how I would have wanted my dad to have helped me.

mof4

[growler100]

mof4- Thanks for the post- I know what your saying, but you have compared something that is extreemly complex to something that's not. Both are horrifying, but both can not  be "fixed" with the same degree of ease.

I am on here for Info, advice ,help, knowledge and support. I feel out of place on here as my situation seems so different from everyone else.

Fighting many battles to win the war is one thing, to lose the first battle and lose the war is another. I must be cautious.

                                                                                                                          The best to ya     Alan                                                                                                                               

[Certain Hope]

Hi Alan,

I didn't want to just drop out of this discussion with you, but still... I really cannot comment re: therapy.

You mentioned that you have the impression that your friend's therapist is about "how do you feel now?" and you ask whether that is a good approach by the therapist.

I think that's a good approach for a Dad.

And I could not agree more with all that CB posted to you here this morning.

Most of all, I believe that you hold the keys to all that your little girl may have bound within her. Your love and tender attention and kind interest in who she is (how she feels, what are her dreams) is what can make all the difference.

Hope

[Hopalong]

Dear devoted Dad Alan,
Everyone is offering such wisdom. My child was once taken (Iat age 6) to a sweat lodge by her father and soon to be stepmother, where she had to sit naked in a tent with adults of both sexes, was allowed out only after remembering how to pronounce a very long Indian word, and wandering around outside under the supervision of two young adolescents until she fell asleep in a field "on a blanket beside a baby somewhere" and came home covered in huge welts from insect bites, including on her genitals.

That does not compare -- it's just an illustration. Parental anxiety, we GET. And we know what Ns are. We can hear you.

I echo CB...please do see a lawyer.

And I'd suggest another step, I know it's inconvenient and radical but I feel this strongly that you can put in place some coping thoughts and skills that can save your daughter's future, and you are so engaged and committed that I think there's a chance you might consider it.

I would either:
1) move to a halfway point that cuts those mileages in half for your visits, even though it doubles your daily commute all the rest of the time, or
2) find a genuinely charming B&B or pleasant hotel where you can stay with her those weeknights, if one exists. (And I understand you are not in an area where it may).

I feel enormous empathy for you in trying to do what you can. It's like fishing with a broken hook and a prayer and very dark water. But I also am inspired by your fathering power and determination.

love
Hops

[growler100]

To you all- You've given me a lot of good food for thought. Keep it comming!

Hope- Your impression that M and G appeared envious of S has been bugging me. I have been trying to organize what I know about their family dynamic.

I know that J and Nmom gang up on M. They have done this in front of me a few times years ago and I have seen it several times from the sideline since. Nmom takes and takes from M. Nmom gives and gives to J. I have never seen anything else. They were both "adults" when I met them.

G was 5.5 when I met him. Looking back I see now that his Nmom controlled every aspect of his being.

S I don't really know anything for fact as we were never a family unit. I have never seen S and Nmom in their real lives together.

I have talked to 1 of Nmom exBF after me and G put on the same "show". When Nmom was dating now husband, I saw the same show again when I picked up and dropped off S at her house. G was 11 then.

If G could manipulate adults thoughts and actions at that age at his mothers request, I'm thinking S could too.

S talked freely about G and idolized him until she was about 7. From then until about 9 her relationship seemed to decline. It went from idolization to he's mean to me to not saying anything about him. From 9 on I get the feeling she doesn't really like him. Never mentions his name unless I ask about him. I try to keep up with his life and ask general questions and usually get no answer or empty answers or she offers things like the cell phone. It's like she doesn't know anything about her brother at this point. I know she's 10 and he's 17, but I would think living together she would have something to say about G.

S has told me that G and Nmom argue a lot and maybe 4-5 months ago she said G told Nmom that she was "Cold-hearted" and S wanted to know what that meant.

S has  showed very little  normal emotion for her Nmom to me, good , bad, happy, sad.

I now this is skimpy info, but any thoughts on dynamics between Nmom, G and S?

                                                                                                             Happy day to all   Alan
 

[growler100]

Hi all- This ties into my last post I think.

Since we started exchanging S  at a half way point 5 years ago, this has puzzled me.

Nmom by herself in car- Walks S to my truck says good bye, sometimes "give mommy hugs and kisses." Dropping off- stays in car, doesn't even look at us until I'm putting S in her car.

Nmom with someone I don't know in car- It's a gross display of affection both times with a lot of "Princess" "Mommy loves you" "Mommy missed you" Nmom nearly runs to my truck.

Nmom with husband in car- Not gross display, but more what I would consider normal.

Nmom with J in car- Same as by herself.

Nmom with M in car- Same as with husband in car.

Nmom with G in car- same as with husband in car.

I get the "show" for stranger and husband.

Why a show off affection in front of M and G but not J?

                                                                           Maybe I'll be struck by lightening today and figure this all out         Alan

[Certain Hope]

Alan, re: the show of affection...

I think it's because J is viewed by mom as her "extension"... the one with whom she is most "herself" (whoever that is)... so there's no need to play-act. For the others, depending on how much she wants to impress them, she goes more deeply into the loving mommy role.

I've seen my mother switch "on" and "off" like this for years.

Creepy stuff.

Hope

[growler100]

Hope, I reallty appreciate your help.

Is it possible that G has figured out his "real" mother? Maybe a few years back, when he started doing what he wanted and began rebeling against his Nmom? That is when he started spending a lot of nights away from home and bringing friends home. Maybe because he discovered that shielded him from his mothers behavior? G is a big boy about 6'4" and maybe she can no longer control him mentally or physically. I know back about the time his father left the picture. G told friends on myspace that he was moving. He never moved but now he doesn't have a father or that option to move. I also know that around the time M and Nmom seperation started S said G was at his friends house and they went to see M.
Nmom found out and from what I gather Nmom about blew the roof offf the house. I explained to S that adult siblings shouldn't have to sneak around to see each other.

It seems the Nmoms' clutch on S has increased at about the same rate it's decreased on G.

I always figured G got his way because he was favored.

M did say G told her he realized he would be on his own in a year and that he wasn't going to get any help from his mother.


                                                                                                                         Plausible??????   Alan

[Certain Hope]

Alan, you're welcome... I'm just wingin it at this point, really.

Growing up, my family life was all about control and lack of communication... not so much drama, with all the lies and such.
I was the compliant child in my family, with only 1 brother, 10 years older. He was/is the flamboyant, extroverted one who challenged all authority... and he left the home when I was 10, so I have very little memory of him there, other than the occasional temper tantrum he'd pitch, straight down on the floor, kicking and screaming...  yeah, that was rather unforgettable. I'd say he had our mother figured out pretty well... enough to know that he needed to get away.

Anyhow, I have experienced enough teen angst and rebellion with my own children to know that a certain amount of that is typical... and most teens are expert at identifying and targeting parental weaknesses   So yes, I think it's entirely possible that G has mom's number.
As a live-in witness to her behavior, and at his age (and physical presence/size) she may be intimidated by him and so she lets him run at will. But I'm not so sure he's the favored one... sounds like J fills that role in this scenario.
Seems to me that G is the odd one out, as the only son... and it sounds like he decided some time ago not to join his mom's fan club.
If he had, he wouldn't be saying that he expected to be on his own soon.

And, I'm sorry to say, it makes sense to me that S is the final pawn on mom's chessboard. From your description of how she behaves when her current husband is in the car, it doesn't sound like she wears the pants in that arrangement, but her need to control is bound to latch onto someone. When I think about S, I remember the sense of isolation I felt at home... because I was 10 when my brother married and left (not that having him around was any great bonus.. lol). But then I didn't have a place to go on weekends or anyone asking me how I felt about things... or what I might enjoy doing, either then or with my life...  and I think - gee, it sure woulda been nice if someone had ever suggested that I actually could have a life  So I'm glad that S has you.

Hope

[growler100]

Hope and everybody on here-When you wing it to me, it's like having a cheat sheet handed to somebody who doesn't know the answers. I know I'm on here dredging up what you've been through but I know it's going to help me help my daughter.


I've read a lot of the threads and have thought about posting but don't really feel I should. Maybe one exception would be the the bra, hair,clothes and other things thread.
My daughters Nmom has made her wear a bra since she was 7.5 or 8. Sometimes a sportsbra, sometimes a training bra, most of the time a 32,34,36 A or B that look like wadded up
towels under her shirt. She is now in what I would call the "bump" stage. Very few of her clothes fit and most are 10 sizes too big. "That's why I have a belt, Dad."

You all have me wondering if I'm going to have to teach her about personal hygiene.

And sex.

                                                                May be a lot of flowers with bent petals on here, but together you make a lovely garden        Alan

[Certain Hope]

Hi Alan,

I'm not sure how much "Health" education S has received in school to this point. My son is entering 6th grade this year and will have his first class of that sort. If you're not sure, you could ask her. By the way, how are her school grades?
But yes, I think that S will need much more info and help than the scattered, willy-nilly, inconsistent and confusing variety offered by N.

Here's a thought...   http://grownupgirl.net/cart/

You could take a look there at the books/kits available and consider which you might like to present to S...
and I think the sooner, the better.
And please don't be afraid about fumbling this... you can get help as necessary from a female friend.
Keeping it non-chalant and positive, always with the door open for questions and discussion... that seems like the main thing to me, because N tends to either ignore or blow up out of all proportion when it comes to this sorta stuff. Aim for calm, concerned normalcy and you'll make an impression that'll carry S through alot 

Hope




Hope

[Hopalong]

That's a great idea, Hope.
If S can have her own bookshelf and her own library at Alan's, it's going to be more her space.
(Just be sure to mix in FUN books like Harry Potter or find out what she loves...)

Hops

[Certain Hope]

That's a great idea, Hope.
If S can have her own bookshelf and her own library at Alan's, it's going to be more her space.
(Just be sure to mix in FUN books like Harry Potter or find out what she loves...)

Hops

That's a lovely picture, Hops. I don't know whether S enjoys reading, but I can't imagine anything cozier or more... contented... than a little girl with her own book nook   

Love,
Hope

[growler100]

Hope and Hops (kinda sounds like a dysfunctional frog doesn't it?) Grades? S finished 4th with a 3.88 GPA. (First year they use actual grades here) I'm hopig she continues to do well. Because of her other family I have expressed the importance of education to her. I have always asked if her mother does "homework" with her and it's always been "no."
Not even ABC cards or math flash cards. Even spelling list that were sent home, mom would have her go over the word the morning of the test before she went to school. I explained to S that was great for short term recall, but you didn't learn the word. In 4th, this past year, she asked her mom for help with math and mom said,"I don't get it." S loves to read and she has several Scholastic Reader books and maybe some of you have noticed this too, the grammer in a lot of those books "sucks" for a child learning to read. One of S big joys is when I get a new Readers' Digest Condensed Book because she knows she will get to read with me in my bed at night and partake in a big bag of Peanut M&Ms. I have always known that S didn't have any personal posessions at her mothers' (everything is "ours") (Is this common?) So at our house, you could say that she is fully "complemented" with her own stuff. Yes, she has books, bookcase and fun bookmarks!

I had S today from 8am to 7pm. To give you an idea of our time together we started with Biscuits & Gravy and Banana Cream pie (It's alway good to have fruit with breakfast) (Right?) Went fishing until before lunch. (Been taking her fishing since she was 2.5) (We keep Bass, Catfish, Bullheads and release in our ponds at home.) Sand I like salads, so went to a local greenhouse and got tomatos and cucumbers to go with lettuce, cheese, potato salad, cottage cheese, Ranch for her and Thousand Island for me. I showed her this Board and told her that I'd been talking to several grown ups who had Ns in their lives and that they had really helped me understand what that was like. I told her that i had a thread on here where I had been talking about her and her family, but didn't show it to her. I did read her some select posts from the "Learning about sex from Mum" thread.
Mostly on clothes ,hair and bras. I talked with her in general terms about mom,sisters and brother and how they all interact. All of this ate into her swimming pool time about 1 hour and it didn't bother her at all! I think for once  that I have been able to talk to her from a point of understanding and not just saying there's something wrong with Mom.
She actually was interestd in what I had to say and what you all had to say to each other. It sort of took the "You don't have a clue what your talking about,Dad." aspect out of the conversation. She still got 2 hours at the pool.

I told her that I had three questions I wanted her to answer real fast. "Do you love your Mom?" Yes  "Do you want your Mom to love you?" Yes  "Does your Mom love you?" No

She looked shocked to hear herself say that. I had her ask me the same questions and I answered yes to all three. We talked about M and how she had kept coming back to mom and being hurt. (She has seen this and realizes what is going on but doesn't know why. I explained that J, M, and G were like her, they all loved Mom, wanted Mom to love them but weren't getting what they wanted and needed.

 For supper we grilled hamburgers and had corn on the cob. S shucked and cleaned the corn, set the table, poured the milks, got all the stuff out of the fridge, put the burgers on
the buns, tomato, relish,ketchup.

I was outside grilling and when I came inside between flips , she had the table all set and had done a very thorough job of it (not typical), she said with a big smile on her cute little face, "I did a good job didn't I, Dad?" I said, "Why yes, I believe you did!" After we ate ,she said that I had fixed a great supper and I told her that she fixed most of it. After reveiw we agreed it was a 70%-30% effort in her favor!

She always sets the table and we always fix our meals together and it's always fun. I would say the meals were always good , but I sorta remember something about some stuffed green peppers, maybe a few other things!

My point being, for some reason she took exceptional pride in what she'd done and went fishing for a little extra acknowledgement, which I was more than happy to do!

I believe that all of you haved helped me work with S on her level and terms for a change, and I sincerely thank you.

                                                                                                                            Bless you all    Alan