Child therapy

[growler100]

Hi all- My daughter is 10.5 y/o. Her mother, who has residential custody, is a N. Not physically abusive but very emotionally abusive. Her mother and I were never married or lived together. I no longer try to expose the true mother and person. As I'm sure you all know that's next to impossible. My daughter has never talked about life with mom until recently
and I was shocked by what she told me. I'm considering therapy for my daughter and was wondering if any of you went to therapy as a child and (1) was it helpful (2) were there
bad concequences from the N parent.  Thank You
                                                                    Alan

[spyralle]

Hi Alan and welcome,

I didn't have therapy as a child but you know I wish I had.  I found out that my family werte not healthy when I was in my thirties.  I had kept everything deep inside me for so long that even now I have a problem expressing how I feel and trying to make sense of it.  If your daughter is beginning to talk about it I would find a nurturing therapist and give her a chance to express it.  I was like a pressure cooker and still am to some extent.  i kept so much stuff packed inside that I was always ready to explode.

Keep posting Alan,

there are a lot of people here who will understand

Spyralle x

[Certain Hope]

Welcome, Alan...  it's wonderful that you're involved in your daughter's life!

I can't really comment about child therapy, but I would strongly suggest that you use caution in introducing the subject to the child's mother. Perhaps once you've located a therapist (if you choose to pursue that route), you may want to discuss options with him/her regarding how to approach this N. As you are likely quite aware, her reaction could be extreme.
Take care... wishing you and your daughter the best!

Hope

[Spyrella]

Thank You for the replies-Spyrella- I think it would do her good also as I know she has alot to say, but just not to me. If that makes sense.
CB- I'm happy your kids have gained from therapy. My daughter (S) isn"t allowed to have friends at her mothers, not allowed to participate in summer activities,
not even to the pool. She has friends where I live that spend weekends here on the farm, camping, fishing, going to fairs and such. She seems to openly talk to her friends about wanting to live with me and about her general unhapiness at moms. I know this because her friends tell me, but when I try to talk to S about it
she goes blank and won"t say a word. Frustrating. I always thought her mom (after the first few months) was kind of weird. When I first met her she was happy, smiling, jovial. Had a 5.5 y/o son with ex husband. Kid always seemed happy around mom. Heard 100 stories about how horrible the ex was to her and son. Heard 200 stories about how horrible sons' stepmother was to him. I didn"t know either and her stories were so compelling and tragic that nobody could be making that up. The more I sympathized, the worse the stories got. Went down the line from ex to ex to boyfriend. All fathers of her children. The whole time she seemed so nice. The nature of her tales all centered around sexual deviation and violence. Couldn"t help feeling sorry. Yes, I learned. She has isolated her children completely. 2 oldest daughters, (J) 32 and (M) 31 have had no contact with paternal families since birth. Son (G) 17 hasn't seem paternal side for a year now. Don't know why. S says he wants to. The mothers' siblings have nothing to do with her or her kids. Her parents are dead. The mother has been working, cleaning a sorority house for nearly a year now and always takes S to work with her. The son (golden) does whatever he wants.
Hope- We share joint custody, so I don't have to inform the mother. When S was 4.5 y/o we were driving through town and she said out of nowhere "Dad, I want to live with you." I replied, "That's great Sugar, would really like that. Why don't you ask your mother if that's OK." Yeah, I learned. A week later a deputy was knocking on my door asking if I want a lawyer present for this. The mother had filed abuse charges against me for hitting her and knocking her down and holding my daughter down while she was crying and screaming when the mother had come to pick S up. The deputy, female, said don't worry, nothing will come of this. She asked if I'd thought about taking S to a psychologist and I said no, why, do you think I should. She shook her head and said yes. But would not tell me why. Deputy told mother they weren't going to persue the charge. I thought it was over. Wrong. She goes to SRS (CPS) they file protection from abuse order against me for mom and S. I get lawyer, go to court (lost visitation for 5 weeks), judge asks mom what happened and in 30 seconds contridicted her story 3 times. Judge says, "Know what, I'm just going to dismiss this." Mother walks out of court smiling. Not me. It's now on the official court and SRS records that Iv'e been accused of abuse. I belive that's all she was after. Thanks for your concern Hope. My concern lies more with my daughter than me. However, I know that I can't help her from jail or without visitation, so I try to be careful.
                                                                                                                                 Bless you all
                                                                                                                                               Alan

[isittoolate]

Alan
There are therapists for little children, who help these children deal with abuse they haven't even recognized. They unconciously/subconciously 'pick up' on things that could cause them fear, fear of abandonment and other things to carry into their adulthood.

If this is not looked after, she will be on this board on 25-30 years wondering what the hell is wrong with her, thinking something happemed a long, long time ago but doesn't know what it is, because she cannot remember, begging her N mother to love her, not knowing N mother never did and never can. Further to that she will likely choose the wrong man to marry and the cycle repeats. YOU nip it in the bud!!

There is a special way the chiild therapists work with the children--- loving and supportive, and then..........

...you continue the love and support, the interest, the fun, learning about her world by playing "ring-around-the-rosie", playing dollies, by doing that she knows she is a child and this is her world, and you are in it and  love her. She should never have to wait to be invited into your world, to speak. When we become parents, we "become children again"

I know this from my life and I am now figuring it all out at age 68.

I have a 43 year old daughter who I "suddenly abandoned from being in a car crasch" and away for One year. She has this fear of abandonment--- and to top that of I had left her father when she was 2½ -- happened to her twice. She is in therapy too.

Little children know. They know but they cannot express their feelings! My 2½ year old put on her squall jacket and just walked out the door. I asked where she was going, and she answered, "To find Daddy." My heart broke and I went to the door to watch her as she just walked away, down the sidewalk and never looked back. (It sure would be interesting to know what she would have done had I not gone to retrieve her and have a talk about daddy's absense.

My besy wishes to you and your daughter in your quest for healthy mental lives.
Izzy

[Hopalong]

Oh Alan, your daughter is so lucky that you heard her. You listened and believed her.

I also feel that taking her to a kind, skilled child therapist with a wonderful reputation would be a good idea. You should set up getting-acquainted appointments on your own first with several of them, and after you have met and talked with them, make a regular appointment for her. Then, you take her and  go for coffee while she's there.

I think it's a wonderful idea to get her there ASAP. At 10 1/2, she's still enough of a little girl to be receptive to help. Adolescence is bearing down, and if she already has a positive association with a kind therapist, what a difference that could make.

I'm glad you're here.

Hopalong

[Certain Hope]

Alan,

What you described of N's reaction from years ago is pretty much how I imagined her reacting now, if she senses that she's under any threat of being "outed" in the course of S's therapy. But forewarned is forearmed...
if you're not already doing so, I think that now would be the time to begin documenting each and every exchange with N and with S, with dates and times, names of "witnesses"... an activity log of sorts.
From my experience, there simply is no "non-threatening" manner in which to present such a thing to N, unless N somehow gets glory from it all.
So I expect that N will try again to have you removed from the picture if she senses that her control over S is weakening... and - in my opinion - S needs you most of all.

God bless and keep you.

Hope

[growler100]

Hi to all - Thank you for your help and support. I sit here and want to explain my daughter and mines' situations with her mom, but I don't know how to with out writing a book.
I can describe mine, but very little of my daughters. I have seen little blips over the last 12 years between Nmom and my daughter and her siblings. All were 1-on-1 with a child and no one else but me there. These blips for the most part left me thinking "Huh, what the heck was that about?" These blips were all weird and only a couple I now realize were mental abuse to the child. It was like an inside joke I guess and I wasn't on the inside and didn't understand. When the Nmom was pg, I would tell her of my hopes for our child and she would become put-off and tell me she wants all her children to be the same. I didn't understand then, but I do now. Nmom quit school had 2 kids by 18. 2 fathers. Daughters J and
M. J quit school had 2 kids by 18. 1 father who has always had custody. M quit school had 2 kids by 18. 2 fathers. Son G 17 to be senior this year wanted to quit school when freshman as he was failing 3 classes at end of year. Stayed in school. Don't know how he is doing now. Hope he makes it. Started his first job this summer 4 weeks ago at McDonalds
and was fired after 2.5 weeks for stealing a customers cell phone. Had it in his pocket when manager dialed the number to see where customer left his phone!

Hope- After the abuse charge I took Nmom to court in attempt to get court ordered Psychological eval. for Daughter. Moms' lawyer got that changed to Parenting skills classes at
county mental health. I attended 5 classes and expressed some concerns about S. Nmom made call to set first appointment and told Psychotherapist that she thought psychotherapy
could "mess with S mind" and was ambivalent about facilitating a mental health intake or evaluation for her daughter. Nmom rescheduled first appointment and then never called or showed up. Went back to court Judge was not happy with Nmom. Ordered Psych. and Parenting Evaluations on Nmom and I. Ordered intake and evaluation for S. Nmom brought 2 daughters in to vouch for her, therapist would not allow me to present anyone whom could attest to my relationship with my daughter. S was never evaluated and Nmom received a shinning review as testament of her daughters. There was no retaliation. I suppose she knew she had everything controlled and didn't feel threatend.

If I do take S to a therapist, no doubt there will be severe hell to pay as it will be out of her control.

Please don't become bored. I'm here for insight and if you have questions please ask.

                                                                                                                   Bless you all
                                                                                                                                 Alan

[finding peace]

Alan,

I just wanted to say that it is very clear how much you care for your D, and it really, really touches my heart. 

There are no easy answers with an N - and boy does she sound like one. 

I might try seeking out a therapist who specializes in children, and making an appointment to go see them.  Explain the situation, but when you do, it is really important that you keep it as neutral as possible.  Stick to the facts (my worry here is that if you express any kind of negative emotion against the mother, it may be used against you later in court if it ever came to that).  Explain your worries, with the focus on your D's emotional health, and ask their advice on what to do.

If you end up taking her to a T.  Brace yourself for the backlash, as I am sure that there will be one given your description of her.  I would not be surprised if she tried to take this to the courts to punish you - so anything you can do now to prepare for that eventuality would be good (like hiring a really good lawyer, documenting any and all interactions by recording conversations [if this is legal in your area], and/or having a third party present so that she cannot lie and accuse you of violence against her).

I did not have therapy as a young child, but did in my late teens/early 20s - it literally saved my life.

My prayers are with you and your daughter.  Please keep posting and let us know how both of you are doing.

Peace

[aguest]

Alan, first - you are such a caring and responsible father!  Your daughter is lucky to have you!

Second - I had some counselling as a child, teen and young adult.  I think it helped immensely to feel heard and believed.  I'm sure it made a difference, in a positive way, in my life and I would highly reccomend you find a therapist for your daughter (preferably one with knowledge of N-ism and Ns).   It can be explained to Nmom that your daughter wants someone private and unrelated to talk about her pre-teen and teenage problems with.

Third - Are not the CPS the most useless bunch of #$%@&*#? around?  They don't look for the truth and their investigation consists of doing all they can to proove that what they have been told is true (while they try to make themselves look like they are protecting children).  And that judge!!  Very helpful of he/she to just dismiss the case.  Did it not dawn on him/her that a person who makes such allegations and goes as far as a court room and then can't get they're story straight has a problem?   He/she sees no obligation to protect the child from that?  Great system!! (Not!!)

Best to you Alan!  Keep trying and most of all being a support for your daughter.  I agree that documentation of every detail, from now on, is extremely important.  If the CPS gets another complaint, they will come in blazing and you will need that documentation.  If you have a friend you trust, having the person inital with the date, every so often, as a witness to the timing of your writings is also helpful (no one would be able to say you made it all up one night or any such thing).  Also, keep receipts and staple them to the pages (if your daughter said something while you were eating lunch at a restaurant, for instance - keep that receipt.  It is proof you were there).

Is emotional considered abuse under the laws where you live?  If so, you might need to take action before N gets a chance.  Get your child into therapy, get a written report from the therapist, keep accurate records of every useful detail to support your case, (you can even write a detailed account of everything your daughter has told you and everything that has happened up until now) and once you believe you have enough evidence, you might decide to make your own report to CPS, to protect your child from further emotional abuse.   Getting good documentation is essential, whether you choose to make a report or not because if CPS gets another report about you, you will need solid documentation to disproove their allegations.

[Certain Hope]

Alan,

I'm sorry to hear that the system let you down before. Sadly, I think that is all too typical a scenario, because N knows how to play the system, which is already sorely overworked.
The judge ordered an evaluation for S and I think that it was your attorney's responsibility to see that the judge's order was completed.
So, at this point, if you choose to pursue therapy for S, I think it'd be very wise to have an attorney at the ready... one who completely understands the history of your dealings with N and is prepared for an onslaught of ridiculous, nonsensical allegations. Hell hath no fury like an N defied. She'll challenge you at every point you can think of... and some which would never occur to you or any other reasonable person.

My youngest - my son - is 11. He lived for 3 years under the shadow  (in fact, that's what he called N - the shadow)of my NPD-ex (not his father). Thankfully, my son is full of imagination and thoughts and emotions and interests...  and because of N, he also knows what it's like to have someone try to suck the very soul out of you. C was 7 when the shadow left our home. Within those first few days afterward, he said to me, "Mom, I know what "N" wanted... he wanted to try to steal our hope."

So Alan, please be sure to let S know that there is hope.

And I hope that you'll keep posting here... knowledge helps to bring all the subtleties of N into the light.

Hope

[growler100]

WOW - This is all becoming so COMPLEX and I don't even see myself as a real victim, more as somewhat collateral. I have a few stories about the SRS and the Judge. The bottom line is ( according to my first lawyer, from that county). The courts standing rule is that children will have residential custody with the mother unless she is a convicted ax murderer. I appear before that Judge 4-5 times a week and I'm not going to make him mad at me. After the abuse charge I got a lawyer from my county who was on the County Child Advocacy
Board and was highly thought of by several people I talked to. Explained my situation and my desire to fight for custody. He was all gung-ho asked him if he had appeared in other county court before. Said no. Told him the Judge wasn't father friendly, he said shouldn't matter. After first hearing trying to get court ordered Eval for S, he immediatly began asking if I couldn't work out some kind of an agreement with the mother. I hope that explains the Court I have to deal with. And the fact that Lawyers don't like to lose before they start and that lawyers don't like to P.O. Judges. The documentation stuff sounds good. I tried that when S was very little and I still tried to talk to her mother. I wrote a log of the       
things her mother said to me for about 2 weeks and they sounded so rediculous I didn't even believe them. An example would be- Went to moms' to pick up S (2 y/o) walked in and
her son G (8 y/o) ran up and grabbed me, PLEADING "Don't cut her hair off! Don't cut her hair off!" Asked him what in the world he was talking about. He said "Mom says your going to cut S hair off!" I assured him I wasn't going to cut S hair off! If you haven't figured this out, G had when I met him, and slill does today as I understand a OCD, I guess, where he plays with his and other peoples hair. Askd mom why she would tell G that and she looked me straight in the eye and said "I didn't. I don't know where he came up with that."
A question I would like to toss out. #1 daughter J (golden) I would never turn my back on. #2 daughter M (scape-goat) Have been buned by, so don't really trust. I figure the only way i will be successful in therapy or court is if another child rolls over on Nmom. #2 over the years has on occasion tried to tell me about Nmom, nothing very accusitory but things like "you have no idea of what it was like for us girls (J&M) growing up" - "I have no family because of the way my mother is" - On and on but never telling me what was so bad. She even wrote me a 12 page letter 7 years ago starting out "PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE,...... Don't let my mother know about this letter. She went into some detail about her mother and herself and G and S and NM treatment toward them. Thing is some of the stuff she said , I knew for a fact was a lie and the handwriting changed through out the letter like it was written by both M and NM. Does this sound possible?
Back to the present- Haven't had contact with M for years. About 9 months ago M and her kids (4) stopped coming to moms' S tells me. Last thing M said to mom was "MY PROBLEM? MY PROBLEM IS MY FAMILY!" No contact since. S misses them and mom said "they can come see us anytime they want" Last month I took S to M house for a surprise visit. Mostly to give M a copy of Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers. She told me she was done with her mother, that her mother owed her 4,000 dollars but her mother said she didn't because she bought diapers for M baby. (Years ago)
Do any of you think it's possible to get M to roll over on NM, or at least talk to a therapist honestly, or will she go straight to NM with what she knows?
                                                                                                                                              Bless you all
                                                                                                                                                            Alan               

[Certain Hope]

Alan,

My thought is that M (age 31) definitely could benefit from this board, for instance, if she's interested in exploring options for recovery from N-exposure.
Apparently she's already applied the principle of "no contact", but has she done this before with her mom and then returned to the same familiar pattern?

Does M seem to feel an attachment to her sister S? Has she expressed concern for the wellbeing of her siblings who are still in the home?

Personally, I don't like the sound of encouraging M into therapy, even if you were to cover the cost, with the objective of encouraging her to roll over on her mom.
Please don't take offense, but I think it's important to recognize that she's been used for the gratification of others throughout her entire life, you know? I mean, that's what N set her up for.
There's no telling how she'll react to an invitation to look more deeply into the damage which has been done...
denial? rage? depression?  Please just be very cautious.
 
You've given M a copy of some info re: N Mothers. Maybe you could ask her whether she's interested in learning more?
At some point, you may even want to consider referring her here to this board...
but whatever you do, I hope you'll hold in your heart the knowledge that M and all of her siblings have suffered under this for a very long while now.
I'm just not sure that she's in position to be of support in your situation....  and she may not be equipped with the tools for that for quite some time.
In fact, at this point, I can picture M placing an angry call to N to say, "Aha, Mom! Alan is gonna get you good now!" ...and, next thing you know, you're bein sued for liable or harassment... or who knows what...
That's just the way of N     


Hope

[growler100]

Hope -Great insights and questions. Asking me things helps alot as my story is like a tree with a thousand branches, I can't explain one branch without reffering to ten others. I spied
on M and G myspace pages until they went private. The conversation was "I miss you G" "I miss you M" On and on. Never once a "Tell S hi and I miss her too". When we popped in the other day S went staight to her Neices and Nephew to play. M did not act happy to see S. Even less happy to see me. Tried talking to her about the papers and her mom. She never even looked at the papers, just held them. What she did talk about was how she wanted to "emancipate" G because her mother was so mean to him and never let him do anything. She said "Mom let us run all over when we were kids." (J&M) Never once mentioned S or that she needed to be "emancipated". Most likely why they both had 2 kids and quit school by 18, just like mom. S has always talked about how G gets to do whatever he wants and spends half (?) the nights at friends and brings a few friends home to spend the other nights. She doesn't even get to have friends. Mom tells G and GF and S she is going to take them to the movies tomorrow and the next day G and GF decide they don't want to go to the movies but rather go to GF house. Nmom says OK and haul them there. S asks Nmom, "Can we go to the movies?"--"No, Mommy can't afford it."

So, to answer your question, no, I don't think there is a connection. I also think G is filling M full of crap, allthough I didn't tell her that.

#1 J has been a vile, vulgar, I won't say worthless, dope head from our first meeting. She and Nmom have always been best buds. Not M/D--Best buds.

#2 M used to tell me that she wasn't like her mom and J. She didn't do drugs and drink and that she tried to do the best for her children. That was several years ago and after seeing her, she looked way too old for her age and maybe she really did have a million invisible spiders crawling on her. My guess is meth. She is like her sister and mom, needing man after man to support her and her kids. I have never met the one she lives with now but I can direct you to many alternative dating websites where they have ads for her to "Fullfill my mans' fantacy" by having sex with multiple partners while he watches and films. I don't care if that is her thing, but next to her naked pics are pics of her in a naughty nurse uniform taking her young sons temp. or pics of the "family " next to nudes of her.

Am I giving too much Info? Or is this one of the results of what she has been through? I think the ass is using her, or maybe she is a willing participant.

                                                                                                                                                        Bless you all
                                                                                                                                                                        Alan

                                                                                                                   

[Certain Hope]

Alan,

I'd say that both J and M are reaping consequences from two sources...  their mother's lack of ... well - lack of everything parental - nurturing and discipline and guidance... as well as their own choices along the way.
And I certainly understand your fears for S's future... very valid fears.

It's difficult to imagine this whole scenario taking place with out a parent who's addicted to something...  alcohol, drugs...
I don't know. Maybe you need a private investigator to gather more info on N.

My own fears in what you've described are on behalf of M's children, as well.  Whether M is being used or is a willing participant,
those photos you mentioned sound to me like ample reason for investigation into those kids' welfare.

I do get the picture, Alan. Some of the dynamics you've described between M and G... with S being out of the loop... sounds like typical "teenage" stuff (except M is 31  ). Sounds like they both are envious of S... like maybe they consider her the "golden" one.
Whatever's going on, it's certainly far from a healthy environment for a little girl and she definitely needs help to be able to overcome the influences under which I'm sure she's already struggling. If she's the compliant child, she has loads of questions and comments to which she doesn't even know how to give voice. S needs her place and permission to speak.

Hope