This morning....

[motheroffour]

Had a deep conversation with my H this morning.  We came face to face with some of our core issues....again.  Understanding the N influence, has really made a difference for me as I try to understand the dynamics of why we struggle together.

Anyway, during the conversation, he finally admitted that I was taking away all of his happiness.  He said that he had lost so much being married to me.  I asked him to please tell me what I have done to do such an awful thing.  He told me that his FOO and how he was with them was wonderful and happy and that he used to be so happy in life.  I make him tell the truth and I talk about problems and I make him go the therapy and I make him see the stuff he doesn't want to see.  He said that all of what I was doing and being was good and that he was grateful that he could now see how that happiness was a facade.  But that he still resented me deeply for all of it.  That it was my fault that it was all happening.

This was just huge for me.  Because I constantly feel the punishment from him if I am having a bad day or even a bad minute.  He says that it is ok that these ebs and flows happen.  But underneath it rarely is and the resentments build.  I feel it all the time. I told him that I longed for the kind of behavior that would tell me it was ok not to be perfect and how I wished that his support and love wouldn't be so contigent upon my ability maintain a happy countenence.

Yesterday, we went to my FOO reunion.  They are plenty messed up with their own non-N dysfunction.  But it was a good day and very enjoyable to see all the relatives I hadn't seen in years.  Before bed he said, "my family is just as messed up as yours.  Why can't I just go to my family events?"  I let the comment go and didn't say anything.  I felt the resentment towards me.  Like I had been forcing him into NC.  Like I was being unfair to him by keeping him from his family.

I became distant and tried to not get hurt by the confusing statement. He became angry that one statment from him could upset me.  He said I was not suppose to get upset.  I am confused because he has been reassuring me that he is choosing a temporary NC from his family so he can heal and find himself because HE can't live with the N influence anymore.  I am angry because I am not allowed to feel or react negatively to anything he does.   I called him on that  this morning and that is why the conversation started.

I just wanted to say that I am sick of being his "reason" for not being happy. I am sick of the projection of his feelings onto me as he gives me so much responsibility for the mess we are in. (side note:  he doesn't really act from a place of integrity in himself.  his is so programmed to act in the way others want him to...primarily his NM and NS....and he doesn't really know that fully yet).  Sick of the responsibility of all his happiness being on my shoulders.  Sick of his distain when his presence isn't enough to stop life from giving problems.  Sick of getting punished for not reacting super supportive when it is an element of the problem that is so painful for me. 

He tells me how much he loves me and values me and in the same breath he tells me that all of my character traits that he has just professed to love are actually the things that ruin his happiness.  I feel like I am being asked to live in Hell and then to like it because he has a beautiful smile.  I told him that is how I feel and he agreed with me that this is a huge problem and that he is trying to figure it out but why can't I just be happy and love him in the mean-time.  I told him that I couldn't because the thought of being the person who ruins his happiness is just too painful for me. 

Maybe I am venting here.  Maybe I am just so frustrated.  I don't know if I should be more patient with him.....waiting endlessly for him to come out of denial and take responsibility for himself, or whether I should leave him for good.

I just want him to grow up!  To take responsiblity for his feelings and choices and their consequences.  To stand up and find solutions to our problems. To stop putting all the pressure and responsibility on me and then resenting me or withdrawing from me when it doesn't go the way that would have worked best for him.   I don't want him to continue punishing himself for his faults ( being Dobby from Harry Potter and beating himself with lamp) like that would be enough to change things or for me to feel so bad for him that I would take care of him or continue to find solutions so he wouldn't have to feel so awful.   

--mof4

PS.  I am feeling really peaceful in myself right now. Knowing that I have done the best I could in this marriage with all of my weaknesses.  And I feel, maybe for the first time, that I am not responsible for all of the N-effects that I feel daily.

PSS.  Sorry about spilling out my dirty laundry onto all of you.  Hope it is not too smelly.

PSS.  I really do have a lot of compassion for his N upbringing and how messed up that can make you.  I just don't know how much of it I am expected to live with before I break!

[Certain Hope]

Dear Mof4,

I see many positive developments in what you've written here... both for you (especially for you!) and for your husband.

It was huge for you that your husband admitted his feeling that you're to blame for his new insights.
It was huge for him, too. How many times in his life has he been able to admit to such feelings and not had the emotional door slammed in his face?

Please understand, I am not taking his side or advocating that you should wait for him forever or advising you in any way to do anything...

I'm only commenting from the perspective of someone who's been on both sides of this particular situation.
My husband of 3 years has had LOADS of barriers to navigate and hurdles to cross in order to reach the part of me to which N had so effectively blocked access ... the part that felt safe to say what I really feel without being abandoned.
This man is torn... and I can relate to that.
I can relate to you both, at every level.
It's very difficult, but not impossible.
And I know you've been married for much longer than three years, but how long have his eyes really been open?
Mine haven't been open too long... I married my current husband in a far less than desireable position, still drinking, immediately post-N-divorce, filled with the after-effects of all that and not even yet started on the process of exploring how N'ism impacted me from childhood. Whew... it was really a risky situation.
And I have to tell you that if my husband didn't apply the patience he has to me, I'd still be locked back up tighter than a drum and back to square 1.

So I just want to say... it's not impossible... and there's grace sufficient for today's troubles alone, not tomorrow's... and you're doing SO very well.
Many times I was certain I'd break, Mof4. It's been discussions with my husband and with God, just like the one you post about here - the sort that feel like they're gonna rend your heart into shreds - but they don't. And then you have another, and another, and you just keep showing up...
see, that's what N never did for me - never showed up. Once somebody did,  consistently,
then I could choose to begin again.
Hope that makes some sense... it's all quite in a muddle in my heart, and I know all that I've said does not change N... but for a non-N, it makes all the difference.

Love,
Hope

[lighter]

MO4:

Take this with a grain of salt, I know you will but..... when someone says two things out of the sides of their mouth.....

::whispering::

they generally mean every negative thing..... and throw the positive things in just to keep you hanging round. 

To keep you confused and doubting your reality.

Maybe your H ins't an N.

Maybe he has some N traits?

Maybe he's selfish and nothing to do with N's?

Maybe taking responsibility isn't his forte, lol?

Maybe blaming you is just a habit for him?

Maybe..... your asking for fair treatment.... asking to have your boundaries respected..... is truly what is making him unhappy.  Just like he said.

I generally find that when someone shows you who they are...... it's best to believe them.  ::nodding::

Maybe you still don't understand the way you relate invites the blame?  (read that as your not knowing how to identify bs and assert yourself with authority) 

It's esp confusing when the people who are supposed to protect us are the ones tearing bites out of us for no reason that could possibly make ANY sense.  ::shrug::

In your case, your H seems to be enabling his family to take bites too.  Very confusing and complicated to figure out. 

Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about and you can dismiss everything I've said and explain your situation so I understand better: /

[motheroffour]

Ok let me see if I can address you both.....

Hope, It sounds like you see that my H is progressing and pointing out to me that more patience and validation of his feelings, even though they are painful for me, might be so powerful in his recovery from his N family system.  Am I close to understanding you?

Just so you know, I spent hours and years trying to talk him through, offering understanding, reading help books, asking him his feeling preferences, and being patient and accomidating with his process.  We have been talking about these issues since we married 10 years ago.  His denial and inexperience with reality is really a handicap.  And feel like he is constantly asking me what he should do and how he should do it.  I feel a little like his parent.  But then after all the work, the stuff that I really need to feel safe is so hard to get him to see and understand, let alone do.

But, maybe you are saying I need to change my attitude to one of understanding and acceptance of where he is today....because he is so knew to using his own eyes to see. 


Lighter,

Trying to follow you on this one.  I think you grasp the confusion factor for me.  If he hit me or yelled at me or cheated on me, that would be obvious.  I could call a spade a spade!  My action would be clear.  But, I watch him in follow what I think are patterns from his N family  ( denial of problems, not taking responsibiltiy, emotional unawareness, servitude, needing perfection in the world so he can be happy) and I try to talk him through these.  He has done much work with T and his 12 steps.  I don't want to undercut his efforts which are profound. 

To tell you the truth, I don't know what or who he is.  When I tell him that his blaming me hurts and that it is not my fault and that he needs to take responsiblity himself, he doesn't take healthy responsibility.  He puts himself down and punishes himself and verbally takes all the responsiblitiy in the world. This makes me feel pity and run to take care of him and feel bad that I made him feel so awful.  I jump in with solutions and apologies.  He never learns the lessons that would make him a more viable partner.  It is a perpetual unequal relationship.  We have spent years going around and around.  He doesn't ever have to really face the music cause I jump in and make him feel better. Or he lets himself off the hook because being either being nice or obedient to me or self punishing will take care of it.   But no action is really taken on the "blaming" that started the thing in the first place.  Am I making sense?  Probably not.  This  writing thing isn't exactly my best element. 

I hear what you are saying.  He is telling me who he is.  And truthfully, I don't think I know what he is telling me.
 
A)  Is he telling me that he is a great guy who grew up in a crazy making fam who is trying to recover from addiction and emotional absense?
.....or.......
B)  he is telling me that he loves his N family ways more than me.  And that even though I may be right and that my way is healthier, his old way was so much more fun and fulfilling.  That my way is too hard and too painful and requires too much of him


If it is A, then I am in.  I am commited. I will go the distance with him.  This is hopeful. And I can learn and grow and heal with him. 

If the answer is B, then I will continue to compete with a world I can't possibly match.  I will never be able to be what is family is for him.  He has expected it of me and I have lost my very self, not to mention myself respect.  He says he doesn't want me to be his family.  But his actions tell me to do it everyday anyway.  He says that he owes everything to me and I have literally saved him.  But he doesn't necessarily want to save himself.  I think he is fence sitting.  He is always the guy that stays safe.  No matter what!    What am I suppose to do with that???

You see he is very charming and amiable and loveable and sympathetic.  Not threatening in the least!!!  It is part of his N family persona.  Nothing remotely threatening!  Nothing wrong, here!  But when I say that there is a problem, we can't actually solve the problem and move past it.  We are stuck in his self-reproach and his resentment of me because I saw the problem in the first place.  My feelings really are never addressed.  I am kind of invisable. 

Am I unfeeling and not compassionate if I don't want to hold his hand anymore?  If I want a H that is an adult and can stand on his own and be just as viable a support to me as I am to him?  Is it so wrong for me to ask for a new family system that is our own and not have to compete with his "royal" family ?  ( I am not really addressing this to you.....it is just coming out of me.....sorry.  Hope you can understand....)

[Certain Hope]

Dear Mof4,

With complete awareness that I could be totally wrong and off-base, here's my perspective:
I'm thinking of your husband as a person who is newly freed from an addiction which is rooted in denial and only recently has been introduced to the whole concept of NPD and what it does to a person/family. Again, I could be completely wrong, but to my way of thinking, those two new developments restart the clock on the whole process.  It's like everything that went on for the previous 10 years went up to the ozone layer and *poof* it was gone.  So yes, I think he's new to using his own eyes and that he's very tempted to return to old habits of - can't we all just stay in denial and pretend like everything's fine.
I don't know what he'll ultimately choose, but choose he must - because there's no fence-sitting in this. A person is either moving forward or sliding back.

If you really believe that he is NPD, then of course none of the above applies.

But please look at what you wrote to Lighter here:

"To tell you the truth, I don't know what or who he is.  When I tell him that his blaming me hurts and that it is not my fault and that he needs to take responsiblity himself, he doesn't take healthy responsibility.  He puts himself down and punishes himself and verbally takes all the responsiblitiy in the world. This makes me feel pity and run to take care of him and feel bad that I made him feel so awful. I jump in with solutions and apologies.  He never learns the lessons that would make him a more viable partner.  It is a perpetual unequal relationship.  We have spent years going around and around.  He doesn't ever have to really face the music cause I jump in and make him feel better. Or he lets himself off the hook because being either being nice or obedient to me or self punishing will take care of it.   But no action is really taken on the "blaming" that started the thing in the first place.  Am I making sense? "

You're making perfect sense, Mof4, but what's the common denominator?  What might happen if you stopped jumpin in to his rescue?  It'll either make him or break him... and maybe that's what it's going to take?

(((((((((Mof4))))))))) I'm on your side.

Love,
Hope


P.S. on edit... tell that man the devil owns the fence.

[motheroffour]

I don't believe my H is NPD.  I do believe that he was raised in it and it is such a part of him.  Heck, if I had been raised with that much adulation and praise for doing nothing, I would love it too. 

Do I care take?  Yes.  I painfully see the pattern.  I play that role beautifully for him.  And in my own defense, sometimes I really don't.  I do give him his responsibility and walk away.  Those are usually the times I feel like I don't have a partner at all.  Lonely.  And he withdraws from me feeling that I don't love him.  Can't win.

 Thank you. I know you are with me.   

--mof4

ps.  part of my dilemma is that I really don't want a divorce.  I have not taken the option off the table.  But my religious and social beliefs are such that divorce should be a last resort.  I guess I reserve divorce for others who have endured such travesty and abuse.  I have been luckier than some.  And other times I feel that what has happened to me is enough to consider getting out.  I just can't make up my mind.
I pray about it.  The answers I get are to "wait" and to go on with my life and the answers will come.  So, I am trying to go on, in trust, with the best coping skills and practices I can, so I don't have to loose my self respect anymore.

[motheroffour]

The truth is you guys don't have to help me figure this out. Sorry, if I am making you.   Maybe I just wanted to say how confusing and fustrating the situation is.  That is all.  Just whining perhaps.  I will probably see things more clearly in the morning.

Thanks for all the support, you two.

[motheroffour]

Just an update.....

My H and I spent the day silent from each other.  Then tonight we talked really calmly.  I explained how it felt to always feel blamed when life or family or health doesn't go right and makes him uncomfortable.  He stopped and said," Oh my gosh!  I do that to you! I make you the cause of the problem. I am so sorry. "  He said it so calmly.  No theatrics and self punishment.  He really started to see how it felt to be me and how much it hurt. One of the first signs he has some empathy in there!   I told him that I had a million character flaws that I am responsible for and would love to discuss those sometime.  But that I just couldn't stand being his scapegoat or dumping ground for stuff I couldn't control or didn't make.  We talked for a long time and discussed some of what we both have been learning about N behavior and he realized that he didn't need to blame me and more importantly, blame himself for not being perfect.  He really started to see the freedom and love that comes from taking responsibility for feelings and the power that comes in self care.  He admitted he was wrong and almost felt excited about it because he saw that he didn't have to punish himself and that he didn't have to let his mistake tank his future.  He felt almost liberated!  And I felt great because I set a boundary and practiced enforcing it with lots of love and patience.  It was a really great mile stone for both of us.  The first time in our 10 year marriage where I finally felt the playing field level to equal.  And where I didn't feel unimportant and invisable.

If anyone is listening.....thank you.  Kinda feeling like a happy dance!  It is a little victory that means so much to me!

[lighter]

Oh crap, MO4.  I have to throw a red flag on the field so I'll c&p your post.  

Ok let me see if I can address you both.....

Hope, It sounds like you see that my H is progressing and pointing out to me that more patience and validation of his feelings, even though they are painful for me, might be so powerful in his recovery from his N family system.  Am I close to understanding you?

This next paragraph is what caught my attention.  

Just so you know, I spent hours and years trying to talk him through, offering understanding, reading help books, asking him his feeling preferences, and being patient and accomidating with his process.  We have been talking about these issues since we married 10 years ago.  His denial and inexperience with reality is really a handicap.  And feel like he is constantly asking me what he should do and how he should do it.  I feel a little like his parent.  But then after all the work, the stuff that I really need to feel safe is so hard to get him to see and understand, let alone do.

When someone does awful things to us, then asks us to pity them..... it's very confusing.  It's also something predator....errrr, ,I mean manipulators  do.  

But, maybe you are saying I need to change my attitude to one of understanding and acceptance of where he is today....because he is so knew to using his own eyes to see. 


Lighter,

Trying to follow you on this one.  I think you grasp the confusion factor for me.  If he hit me or yelled at me or cheated on me, that would be obvious.  I could call a spade a spade!  My action would be clear.  But, I watch him in follow what I think are patterns from his N family  ( denial of problems, not taking responsibiltiy, emotional unawareness, servitude, needing perfection in the world so he can be happy) and I try to talk him through these.  He has done much work with T and his 12 steps.  I don't want to undercut his efforts which are profound. 

Again.... the guilt he heaps on you and request for pity.  ::tapping foot::  Who would want to undermine a struggling recovering addict...... who's done big work on his 12 step program?  I must tell you..... I'd be praying at midnight with my N after his so called 12 step program meetings right now if I wasn't through with being manipulated, at all costs, for my children's sake.  I just can't do it anymore.  ::shiver::  

To tell you the truth, I don't know what or who he is.  When I tell him that his blaming me hurts and that it is not my fault and that he needs to take responsiblity himself, he doesn't take healthy responsibility.  He puts himself down and punishes himself and verbally takes all the responsiblitiy in the world. This makes me feel pity and run to take care of him and feel bad that I made him feel so awful.   I jump in with solutions and apologies.  He never learns the lessons that would make him a more viable partner.  It is a perpetual unequal relationship.  We have spent years going around and around.  He doesn't ever have to really face the music cause I jump in and make him feel better. Or he lets himself off the hook because being either being nice or obedient to me or self punishing will take care of it.   But no action is really taken on the "blaming" that started the thing in the first place.  Am I making sense?  Probably not.  This  writing thing isn't exactly my best element. 

Ummmmm, you're sending shivers up my spine with the picture you're painting.  My N spent years replacing my thoughts with his... convincing me that I needed to protect him... nurture him..... help him through his depressions.  Just let me catch that guilty look in his eye and OFF HE WENT in crisis mode about something at work or about feeling like a bad father or about fearing for his soul or about missing out on his life so he could work to make a better life for us..... and I would do everything you said you feel compelled to do for your darling husband.  I really hope I'm not going off the deap end here..... but the red flags are flying all over the field at this point

I hear what you are saying.  He is telling me who he is.  And truthfully, I don't think I know what he is telling me.
 
A)  Is he telling me that he is a great guy who grew up in a crazy making fam who is trying to recover from addiction and emotional absense?
.....or.......
B)  he is telling me that he loves his N family ways more than me.  And that even though I may be right and that my way is healthier, his old way was so much more fun and fulfilling.  That my way is too hard and too painful and requires too much of him


If it is A, then I am in.  I am commited. I will go the distance with him.  This is hopeful. And I can learn and grow and heal with him. 

If the answer is B, then I will continue to compete with a world I can't possibly match.  I will never be able to be what is family is for him.  He has expected it of me and I have lost my very self, not to mention myself respect.  He says he doesn't want me to be his family.  But his actions tell me to do it everyday anyway.  He says that he owes everything to me and I have literally saved him.  But he doesn't necessarily want to save himself.  I think he is fence sitting.  He is always the guy that stays safe.  No matter what!    What am I suppose to do with that???

You see he is very charming and amiable and loveable and sympathetic.  Not threatening in the least!!!  It is part of his N family persona.  Nothing remotely threatening!  Nothing wrong, here!  But when I say that there is a problem, we can't actually solve the problem and move past it.  We are stuck in his self-reproach and his resentment of me because I saw the problem in the first place.  My feelings really are never addressed.  I am kind of invisable. 

Am I unfeeling and not compassionate if I don't want to hold his hand anymore?  If I want a H that is an adult and can stand on his own and be just as viable a support to me as I am to him?  Is it so wrong for me to ask for a new family system that is our own and not have to compete with his "royal" family ?  ( I am not really addressing this to you.....it is just coming out of me.....sorry.  Hope you can understand....)

Ahhhhhh.... yaaaaaa.....::shaking head::

It's not A, IMHO.  

I'm teetering between understanding for sure and being confused too.  

I think that he wants you to remain in the position you're in.  

That's clear.  

I think that he does resent you, for many reasons.

I think that he'll continue to make you feel guilty and avoid getting your needs met until you break that cycle.  

He'll never do it.  

It's his job in life to keep you where you are so he can be where he is.  

It's not personal, IMO.  

It's just who he is.  

I think he tells you what he needs to.... to keep you in the relationship.  

I don't like him, btw.  I think I said so a while back.  I haven't changed my mind in fact...... I like him a lot less than I did before.  

Take it with a grain of salt.... it's just one woman's opinion.  

Forgive me if you really think I'm off track.  

It's difficult to be certain on a message board but...... the gathering of pity and caretaking he sustains from you, after he's done something irresponsible or mean......?

That's the best indicator you'll find of manipulator behavior, or so I've just read in THE SOCIOPATH NEXT DOOR.  

It rang so many bells for me the room went around and I dreamed awful the entire night.

I'm in a weird place right now though so..... remember the grain of salt and let me know what you think.  (((MO4)))  

[lighter]

Just an update.....

If anyone is listening.....thank you.  Kinda feeling like a happy dance!  It is a little victory that means so much to me!

Ummmm... I'm listening.  And I think my last post will put a damper on your happy dance.  Dance anyway.... sorry it's so salty: /

[motheroffour]

Radio announcer...."....and lighter just smacks mof4 back to reality!"   

It is ok.  I will still do a little happy dance.  It was a moment of celebration not a end of the game victory for my marriage, which is still very much on trial.  I really appreciate your candor.  Because sometime, he is so hard to read.  And I am telling you, NO ONE! would think that any of this behavior could come from my H.  But, I know you are right.  I know he has to keep me where I am so he can be where he is.  I know that he is being manipulative because that is all he has ever known.  But I also think he does it innocently.  He really isn't malicious about it.  I think he is just so unaware of his thought processes that he doesn't even know he is doing it.  Cause this is common everyday stuff to his family who are in so much denial it is scary and believe that what they do is pure christianity.  Really deluded by all of their happiness.  My H could never relate to some of the posts who talk about the N mothers and how they are the living dead.  He reverences his mother.  Respects her and loves her dearly.  Has no memory of ever being harmed by her.  No red flags or whistles have ever gone off for him until I came into his life.  And thank goodness we learned about N.  It is the first information that seems to be waking him up!  He really sees it and recognizes that he is a casualty of it.  Not sure he is aware yet of his own behavior.  But I know that he is scared that he is an N or at least tends toward it.  That is keeping him up at night.  His health is declining right now and his stress is high.

I am not asking you to like him.  I am not sure if I like him let alone love him.  I told him so this morning.  But for some reason I am staying for now.  Sometimes, and this is my scariest revelation, I think I stay because I don't know if anyone else would love me.  Other times I believe God led us to each other so we could both heal.  He really seems to be in a healing trejectory.  But, I really hate all this N stuff.  And I can't live with it anymore, either.  I explained to him today, that things really need to change.....today!  And then I remind myself, Rome wasn't built in a day.  I see he needs my patience  as well.  For now, he is getting it but with my boundaries firm!

Thanks for saying all of it.  You have voiced so many of my silent and unverbalized concerns.  You say it so much better than I.  Thanks for seeing the flags.  I see them too...when I am not "fogged in" by the confusion.  Don't know what I will do. I am so alone in my world.  Other than my T, no one believes me.  Not church leadership and not our families respectively.  They all want us to stay married.  Don't know if I am in denial or if I need to be more patient and learn to take care of myself better.  Don't know what the answers are yet.  So, I am trusting God until I know.  Until then, I may rant while I try to work it all out. 

[motheroffour]

One more question....

Help get clear on breaking the cycle.  What do you mean and how might I be missing this?

[reallyME]

moOf4,

I sure am relating to your posts!  I'd like very much if you felt comfortable with it, if we could private message and stay intouch to support each other through this stuff in the dysfunctional marriages we both live in daily. If you prefer not to private message with me though, that's ok too, and we can just talk on the board.

My situation with an N type husband, who believes that everyone on the planet thinks he is wonderful, and why can't I see it too, is very similar to yours.  I am also a mother of 4...2 of which went directions in life that broke and break my heart.

There was an incident on this trip while we were at the fair, that I want to share.  I always had a problem with holding my husband's finger while we walked, vs holding hands like adults do. I told him that I feel like a child and he is my daddy.  I dared to voice it.  He told me it was ridiculous, that he didn't see it that way and that it hurt his fingers to stretch.  Then, he suddenly squeezed my hand as hard as he could, looked right at me and calmly said "THAT is why I don't hold your hand.  I would CRUSH IT!"  I was FURIOUS and told him "YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HURT ME TO PROVE YOUR POINT!" and finally told him "fine, then walk by yourself" and I went my own way.

Later, he says to me "I'm going uptown...wanna come? You say we never walk anywhere."  I joined him and, lo and behold, he put his arm around me and then took my hand.  I didn't comment about it.  I just enjoyed the moment. (with self-absorbed people, sometimes all you have are MOMENTS.)

We went to a dollar store and I began picking some things off the shelf, which he was not happy about, so I suggested that maybe I could just not get the things, and he said "no, it's fine."  Next store I got some healthy veggies in a can and he again had a fit.  I offered again to replace them.  He again said no.

As we walked home, suddenly he says to me "ya know, dear, you just live your life full of stress.  Do you see ME doing that?  No.  I talk in a calm, cool voice all the time, but you, you just go getting all upset all the time."  I calmly asked him "what are you talking about?"  Then, he began a tirade about how "you can't even hold my finger while we're walking.  Now, what is the big problem with that? You couldn't just take it and accept it.  You HAD to complain.  That's all you do is complain."

By the time we were back from the walk, I had confronted him, cornered him about bringing up the hand-holding thing (when, remember HE was the one who took my hand after just fighting about my holding his finger, earlier in the day)...so, he had brought up a former topic that had, I THOUGHT, been already SETTLED.

I was so upset beyond words at that point, that I just gave up and walked ahead of him, staying silent the rest of the way.

[lighter]

One more question....

Help get clear on breaking the cycle.  What do you mean and how might I be missing this?

You allow him to blame, shame, guilt and otherwise force you into caretaking him and his feelings.  He doesn't have to take responsibility for himself bc you do it for him. 

He's unlikely to break the cycle, unless you become too big a PITA.  That means you'll have to be the one to require better treatment, read that as withdrawl with love from the relationship, IMHO, of course. 

At the very least, you can erect firm boundaries and absolutely require they not be tampled.  That would require that you stop doubting your feelings and motives. 

You don't have to figure out what his intentions are.  All you have to do is figure out that you're worthy and you deserve to have your needs met too. 

Once you truly begin enforcing your boundaries and banishing innapropriate behavior...... he'll make it very clear what his motives are.  There won't be any guessing...... is my guess: /

[Certain Hope]

Mof4,

Just wanted you to know that I don't feel any pressure from you... as though you expect someone else to figure this out for you.
I understand the need to pour it all out here... that's a good thing. It helps. When I pour out my responses, they come from my own  perspective, which is admittedly very limited and based solely on my own experience. That's all anyone can do here, I think.

I have a dual perspective on this... first, the family in which I was raised is similar to your husband's family in some ways, as far as the "Christian - we can do no wrong - aren't we all just so happy and good and close, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah."
But then for 15 years I dealt with my in-laws who were non-Christian - we can do no wrong - aren't we all just so close and happy and supportive of each other and if you see truth about us, then you're the wrong one, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah"
And then there was NPD-ex, who shattered every illusion.

It's been really tough for me to grow up. In fact, I feel like I've just begun the process, in my 40's, and if it were not for the destruction of my marriage to my kids' dad, followed by the in-your-face, this is gonna cost you your soul and maybe your life experience with NPD-ex, I might very well still be just a shadow of my very Nish mother. That mold is not easily broken. I still struggle with not trying to glue the pieces back together, because it's just so very cozy and familiar! I expect that your husband will struggle greatly, as well, as his entire (false) reality crumbles around him. You cannot give him a sense of self to replace that which his family stole away, but your boundaries can teach him where you end, and he begins. That's what I needed to learn... and my husband has been able to show me, by God's grace.

Anyhow, I just wanted you to know that my thoughts and feelings on all this are not coming from a traditional "Christian" perspective which often says - "you've gotta stay just where you are and go through hell in order to maintain your vows".  Yes, I know that God hates divorce. I believe that He hates it because it tears people and families apart... it hurts and destroys... but I'm divorced and God doesn't hate me. So it's not that I think divorce is some huge, unforgiveable sin. I do not believe that people should stay married "no matter what". On the other hand, I do believe that many marriages end in divorce needlessly, because people don't recognize the tactics (wiles) of the enemy at work in their homes - and because of immaturity - I think that's a major reason. And I believe that many people stay married for very wrong reasons, when a separation is called for, due to the repeated violation of proper boundaries.
I am so sorry you're not receiving the support and help which you should get from the church leadership there. I know there are so many misunderstandings and misinterpretations of God's truth out there and many are suffering under religious systems because of it.
Please know that I'm not in that camp.

I completely agree with Lighter's post here: 

Quote:  "You allow him to blame, shame, guilt and otherwise force you into caretaking him and his feelings.  He doesn't have to take responsibility for himself bc you do it for him. 

He's unlikely to break the cycle, unless you become too big a PITA.  That means you'll have to be the one to require better treatment, read that as withdrawl with love from the relationship, IMHO, of course. 

At the very least, you can erect firm boundaries and absolutely require they not be tampled.  That would require that you stop doubting your feelings and motives. 

You don't have to figure out what his intentions are.  All you have to do is figure out that you're worthy and you deserve to have your needs met too. 

Once you truly begin enforcing your boundaries and banishing innapropriate behavior...... he'll make it very clear what his motives are.  There won't be any guessing...... is my guess"

'cept I'd replace Truth Walker with PITA. He's already had enough PITAs in his life, imo.

But as with all you read here, please do take my thoughts with one of those hefty grains of salt, as well, Mof4.
None of us are walking in your shoes, but we can sure walk alongside you as you sort through all this stuff.

With much love,
Hope