The N Parent and Curses

[lighter]

Dear Steve,

Your therapist must be amazing. 

Seriously. Wow.

But the credit for the epiphany goes to you, because you were open to healing.

Hops

Yup yup yup, Hops.

Bears repeating: )

[Catherine]

Hope,

Thank you so much for that link.  I ordered the book and DVD.  I am trying so hard to not hold resentment in my heart towards my mother.  All i have ever wanted from her is her blessing (not necessarily approval....just her blessing...that's it).  However, i know she knows this b/c i have told her this is what i need.  Her reply is that she will not give it to me until I do what she wants.

It is so hard for me to move on when she is holding onto this like her life depended on it.....she dangles it in front of me like a carrot on a stick.  The last time i spoke with her, calmly, she ended up raging at me - refused to speak or listen to a word i said.  I wrote her a letter but her heart was very hard.  SHe returned it to me with a lot more verbal abuse written on the front of it...it just made me more angry and bitter.

I feel like it is 1 step forward and 3 steps back with her.  I go a period of NC with her so i can regroup my thoughts, soften etc.  Then i see her, quietly, humbly, and she rips me to shreds with her ...MEANNESS...i have no other words.  Its like speaking to the devil.  She hates it when i am meek. Hates it when i am strong.  Enjoys speaking in riddles...."you figure it out what you did to me....i'm not mad...i don't know what you are talking about"  etc.

I think she is purposely withholding the blessing b/c it gives her power over me.  I hope the book tells you what to do when a parent is so sick in the head they will not/can not give it to their children.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Catherine,

You're so very welcome.  There are chapters about homes that withhold the blessing, as well as "When a child misses the blessing", "Learning to live apart from the blessing".  I do believe this will help... for me, too... as I relate to my own children, one of whom in particular has not received my blessing for some time.
I'm so glad you brought this topic here. I don't read all of the threads, but this one I kept looking at...  thought, well... I won't have anything to offer there... but now I get it. Of all the reading I've been trying to sit myself down to do, and sometimes it's not easy to maintain focus, I think this is the one I'm supposed to read next myself. So thank you! And thank God... He's pretty amazing.

Love,
Hope

[Catherine]

I was reading giving the Blessing to your own Parents:

"..........Hardest of all, Helen admitted the anger and hatred she had carried towards him for years and asked for his forgiveness. ...For 15 yrs Helen's father had denied the burning conviction of his wrongs against his daughter. He asked her to forgive him for being such a terrible father and lamented over all of the pain he had caused in her life..."

Is this type of reconcilliation even possible with a N parent?

The last time i apologized to my mother, she accepted my apology but never once apologized for anything she did. Not one thing.

[Certain Hope]

I've only ever apologized to NPD-ex. Whether I needed to or not, I did... because I thought that was right. Actually, I think what I apologized for was for not being perfect...  He "accepted" and "apologized" in turn. Gee, that accomplished alot. Forever after, he used that as a weapon against me... so no, I don't see a reconciliation with a truly NPD person as possible, at least not in terms of that person suddenly becoming who we always wanted them to be.

But dealing with our own issues of unforgiveness is what frees us, I'm thinking... regardless of how the other responds?

I'm caught up short here, Catherine. It has never occurred to me to apologize to my parents and I really cannot imagine their reaction. I hadn't read that excerpt yet... but wow, there's some food for thought. If we know that apologies don't always lead to reconciliation... but we also know that we've carried hatred and bitterness in our hearts toward someone... maybe our freedom comes in shedding that? I'll be reading this book over the next few days. That's for sure!

Love,
Hope

[Certain Hope]

Dear Catherine,

Today I've been reading in The Blessing book that I have here...thanks again for inspiring me to finally read it!
Just thought I'd share a bit... 

In Hebrew, the word translated "curse" means         -         "to consider something of little value or worth".
"Like mist or steam, it's something of so little weight that, like a worthless irritation, it's to be brushed aside".

This surprised me... and based on that definition, I see that's what NPD does - curses everyone with whom it comes in contact.

The first consequence of being cursed that's discussed here is that we learn to be hopeless... immobilized in facing the future.
Instead of actively trying to solve our problems, we can become passive, dependent, and depressed. Sounds too familiar.

By shouldering curses from the past, we get stuck in this sort of learned hopelessness.
So then the first step toward reversing the curse and learning to be hopeful comes from making a wholehearted commitment.
The author here speaks of a man whom he'd counseled, who made a true commitment of his life to Jesus Christ... to be the person - the husband and father - that God wanted him to be. This clear, definite commitment (which this man actually put it into writing) was the key to sorting out the inner confusion left behind by having received those curses.
Now I believe that a commitment to Christ is the best one that any person can make, but of course there are many who don't share that view. So I guess the thing is to take a close look at where our commitments lie and zone in on one that's firm and unshakeable...

But I really like the way he talks about learning hopefulness... and it makes sense to me that this all begins with making a commitment.
Of course, there's  more to come after that, but this is where I am for now... defining that commitment further and clarifying what all is part of it. Anyhow, that's a bit of what I read today. Hope it helps.

Oh, the Scripture reference to this part is 2Corinthians 5:17
"If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;
old things have passed away;
behold, all things have become new."

I hope you've had a good day!

Love,
Hope

[Ami]

Dear Hope,
 I would like your opinion . I am trying to form some model where I can 'live" comfortably in my skin.
 My mother made me doubt my realty so badly. It is so, so so hard for me to trust myself.
 I realized from a  Bible teaching  that the only part of us that has God in it is the spirit. The other parts are the "flesh". The flesh will never get"good" until we go to heaven. So, if we feel or think "bad" things, that is just the flesh and does not make us a bad person.. Our responsibility is to act in accordance with the spirit? What do you think? I am asking this b/c I was made to feel so guilty and worthless for what I thought or felt . What do you( or any one else) think of this?      Love  Ami

[Certain Hope]

Ami,

I can tell you my own experience with some of this and that may help you to form some opinions...

As long as I can remember, I have felt inept, clumsy, incompetent, and just generally like an oddball.
The lesson I received from my mother was that she is the only person in my life worthy of trust.
In my attempts to prove her wrong, I married some extremely un-trust-worthy men and only succeeded in confirming that she was absolutely right.
From that context, I can relate to what you say about doubting your reality... because I created a false reality
for myself, out of my determination to NOT accept what I saw as my mother's graceless, loveless existence.

Then I met NPD-ex-husband and thought surely he was a gift from God. Oh, he was so emotional. 
He was a gift alright... he gave me an object lesson, in living color, of the meaning of the words -
the devil often appears as an angel of light!

Then I met Jesus.
 
HE said that I could be born again and made new.
HE said that I didn't need to lean on my own understanding, but only trust Him and follow in His steps.
HE said that He would give me a new spirit and a new life, that I would be a new creation in Him,
that all I had to do was give up on my own efforts to make myself right and receive His gift.
That's what I did.
I received Jesus and He gave me the Holy Spirit.. the Comforter, you know? Our Paraclete, Advocate, Teacher...

So here is the model on which my new life is based, first out of Colossians 3:
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above,
where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
I hope you can see... that was the best news I'd ever heard, Ami... that I have died and my life is hidden with Christ in God.

And this, from Romans 8:
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

And then, you know, in John 8 we read about that truth which makes people free... well, I saw that's Jesus - He is The Truth.
The new spirit which is received by those who call on His name is His Spirit.
That's why we read further along in John 8 and see that "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

And in 1Corinthians 2:
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world,
but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God..."

So, as you've said here... it's walking in that Spirit which allows us to overcome the flesh... the will and emotions... and to renew our minds to the truth of Christ. It's about identifying with Him and not with our earthly families or with our own flesh.
As new spiritual creations, we have a new spiritual family... we've been adopted

But I have lots of feelings float through, Ami... especially now that I'm consciously trying to be aware of them.
Maybe you've heard this old quote from Martin Luther... I'll paraphrase:
You can't stop the birds from flying over your head,
but you can sure keep them from building a nest in your hair!
So yes, I see that it's my responsibility to pay attention to which feelings I allow to hang around and get nurtured, developing into thoughts. When I start nursing the wrong feelings into thoughts and maybe even into actions... then pretty soon I have alot of nasty, bitter roots taking ahold. Thank God He is eager to receive our repentance and strengthen us by His grace!

So you're right - for a person who is born from above, made a new creation in Christ, feeling and thinking bad things does not make them a bad person.
Look at all the letters the apostle Paul wrote to people he called "saints". He writes plenty of correction of wrong things in those letters, but he doesn't address the letters to "the sinners at Corinth" or "the sinners at Ephesus".

The main thing is... God would never cause you to feel worthless, Ami.
That sort of condemnation is from the father of lies.
The value of something is often determined by the cost someone is willing to pay for it, right?
Take a look at the cost God paid to buy you back, to redeem you... then you will know your true value.
Once you see what really happened on the cross, no one will be able to convince you that you're worthless.

Love,
Hope

P.S.  I don't trust myself, Ami... I trust God in me. I trust Him to guide me and protect me... including from myself.
You see, I recognized that I had been my own worst enemy.
For me, I had to come to the point where I knew I couldn't trust myself in order to look up and see the One I can trust, always.








 

[Ami]

Thanks so much,Dear Friend                               Love     Ami

[jordanspeeps]

Hello everyone,

It's been a long while since I last posted.  I'm around, but I usually keep my correspondence to a few friends by PM.  I'm in a whirlwind nursing program that won't allow me much time to do anything other than breathe and sleep 5 hours a night, but I have a brief break here and when I have a minute I can't help but come and see how my friends here are doing.  This thread jumped out at me.  N'ism and curses, (particularly generational ones), are subjects I am extremely sensitive to as I come from a long line of N women who are/were also happened to be healers and religious leaders. 

Several years ago, after a long run with what I considered to be "bad luck," I proclaimed in desperation, "What is wrong with me, am I cursed!"  This statement opened a floodgate of emotions and realizations.  The researcher in me took this question to the library and the internet to find out what I could about curses, evil, and what have you.  It was then that I stumbled across Peck's "People of the Lie" and began to make this evil/narcissism connection.   It rang true through my spirit.  I made the connection that Nism in it's most malignant form was the devil at work, murdering spirit and good will.  I saw in my Nmother and Ngrandmother a lifetime of these dark-hearted intentions and slights to their children and grandchildren that could easily be mistaken for love and concern. (Isn't it the devil's way to convince us that he/evil does not exist?) The epitome of politeness covering up the venomous, hateful motives.  The psuedo-love shown to me as a child was a house of cards flailing apart with each divinely-guided revelation. My next research question: "Did this evil begin with my grandmother or does it go back further than that? What happened way back when to cause my family to be cursed this way?"

This then took me to an online family tree maker where I began to research the particulars of my matri-lineal heritage and I began to find that I have a rich North Carolina Cherokee pedigree and that my grandmother's grandmother was a pure Cherokee medicine healer. It was the custom of the time, I found, for children born under auspicious conditions, say in the caul-amniotic sac, or sunny-side up-face staring upward upon delivery from the birth canal, or in the case of my own mother, in a spring-time snowstorm, to be removed from his/her parent and placed in the woods to test his/her spiritual power.  If this infant is able to survive away from the tribe and in the elements for several days, then this child is truly a "special gift" to the tribe and is to be exalted to a high position such as healer, tribe leader, etc.  (I can't help but wonder how many children died during this testing b/c they just happened to have these rare, but explainable circumstances).

Now, I should also slow down to point out that according to psychology, Nism itself is the result of a breach in bonding between mother and infant.  Lack of empathy on the part of the parent causes the child to develop in a VERY early stage of development certain defense/coping mechanisms adapted for N survival.  It becomes ingrained moreso in the sub-conscious than in the conscious mind, that survival for the N is a matter of self-preservation above all else, necessitated, I believe by those initial days as an infant without a human face to connect with, without love to sense, and a warm bosom to be comforted by.  This was the fate of my grandmother's grandmother, who indeed raised my grandmother, and also the fate of my own mother who was raised by her paternal grandmother after being rejected by her mother.  The theme of parental rejection in baby-hood was prevalent in the family. 

Another theme was the oppression and pain my ancestors had to endure during the "Trail of Tears" and the forced migration that left many Native Americans broken in spirit.  The Nism of the government during that time was cast upon the historically peace-loving people leaving a legacy of bitterness and hatred toward the white man. But like in any scenario of abuse, retaliation tends to be misguided and instead of lashing out towards their oppressors, many of the tribespeople lashed out toward their own, creating a divisiveness among and within the once-friendly tribes.  Neighbor against neighbor, brother against brother, parent against child.  This is the way evil works.  Resilience allowed my own ancestors to survive these times although they incured much psychological damage.

Another unfortunate family theme, one all to close to my own childhood experiences, is incest.  I'm not sure where it began, but evil has many ways of affecting a family.  Incest was and is rampant in my mother's family and part of the neglect and lack of empathy of N motherhood is that nothing is done about the little girl's and boys complaints of inappropriate touching.  The desire to see evil perpetuate keeps the should-be protectors quiet about the reports of rape and dehumanizaiton.  To be raped by a stranger is it's own horror but to be repeatedly raped by a "loved one" is a hell that never stops burning.  I recently approached my grandmother about what she knew of the pedophilia and sexual deviance in the family.  Her response to me was, "I hate you."   

With this as my past, I have made a decision, one that has been two whole years in the making/planning, to cut myself off completely from my toxic past.  My only connection will be the book I'm writing, my catharsis for a long journey.  And as for curses, for myself and my daughter, the buck stops here. Curses can indeed be broken.  Knowledge, positivity and a willingness to change the course from it's current path are paramount. This is not at all easy. My seven year old does not know my side of the family well.  I will never allow her to stay alone with them but I try my best to fill her with love and esteem.  A beautiful, beautiful girl is she. I rebuke the negative spirit that wishes to devour her goodness and taint my family's right to happiness.  And may she never personally know of the curse to our family.

Best to everyone
Tiffany

[JanetLG]

Tiffany,

That was such an interesting post. I hope you can take positive things from such a strong family heritage.

I have been researching my family tree, and have found that my NMum's female line has 'strange' women in it, (probably N, although I can't be sure of some  of them) going back to the 1850's.

My grandmother was 'given as a servant' to her own grandmother at birth, as 'payment' for her own mother having the cheek to leave home and get married! So my grandmother grew up feeling unloved (in fact, being only seen as a servant, not part of the family). Her own siblings disowned her.

When my grandmother had three of her own children (my mother was the third), my mother was 'sent away' for two months around the time of the fourth child being born. So my mother came back to a family where she wasn't 'the baby' any more, and the whole family dynamic had changed. That might have started her N-ism, IMO.

Weird.

Janet

[Certain Hope]

My seven year old does not know my side of the family well.  I will never allow her to stay alone with them but I try my best to fill her with love and esteem.  A beautiful, beautiful girl is she. I rebuke the negative spirit that wishes to devour her goodness and taint my family's right to happiness.  And may she never personally know of the curse to our family.

Best to everyone
Tiffany

Amen, Tiffany. Amen - let it be so.

I agree with all you've written and appreciate so much that you've taken the time to share this.

About this:
"I made the connection that Nism in it's most malignant form was the devil at work, murdering spirit and good will."
Yes. Innocence must be destroyed - that is the mission of malignant Narcissism, inspired by the father of all lies.

Love to you and blessings on your studies and to your family,

Hope

[guest101]

Hello everyone,

IThe researcher in me took this question to the library and the internet to find out what I could about curses, evil, and what have you.  It was then that I stumbled across Peck's "People of the Lie" and began to make this evil/narcissism connection.   It rang true through my spirit.  I made the connection that Nism in it's most malignant form was the devil at work, murdering spirit and good will.

Peck changed my whole perspective.  I always knew evil existed but I have seen it face to face!  I have seen it at work!  I know what you mean. 

 

I'm not sure where it began, but evil has many ways of affecting a family.

I firmly believe that many people are hosts to evil spirits which are affecting their every interaction with others. 

I rebuke the negative spirit that wishes to devour her goodness and taint my family's right to happiness.  And may she never personally know of the curse to our family.

This is a powerful, powerful statement.  You are a wonderful mother and your daughter is blessed to have you.

It really warmed my spirit to read your post at this time in my life.

I recently told my therapist that when confronted with the evil that exists in my family, the knowledge of it with my eyes wide open I am horrified.

She told me it is wise and appropriate to be horrified when confronted with evil.

I was concerned that she might think I was some kind of fanatic, seeing evil spirits lurking in every corner but she assured me that she didn't get that sense at all.

she affirmed my belief.  she said:

Evil exists and it can take over and destroy lies if we let it.

[guest101]

correction:

My therapist said:

evil exists and it can take over and destroy LIVES if we let it.

God and the spirit of truth destroys lies.

[Leah]

author=Certain Hope link=topic=5290.msg82886#msg82886 date=1186017407]
Ami,

I can tell you my own experience with some of this and that may help you to form some opinions...

As long as I can remember, I have felt inept, clumsy, incompetent, and just generally like an oddball.
The lesson I received from my mother was that she is the only person in my life worthy of trust.
In my attempts to prove her wrong, I married some extremely un-trust-worthy men and only succeeded in confirming that she was absolutely right.
From that context, I can relate to what you say about doubting your reality... because I created a false reality
for myself, out of my determination to NOT accept what I saw as my mother's graceless, loveless existence.

Then I met NPD-ex-husband and thought surely he was a gift from God. Oh, he was so emotional. 
He was a gift alright... he gave me an object lesson, in living color, of the meaning of the words -
the devil often appears as an angel of light!

Then I met Jesus.
 
HE said that I could be born again and made new.
HE said that I didn't need to lean on my own understanding, but only trust Him and follow in His steps.
HE said that He would give me a new spirit and a new life, that I would be a new creation in Him,
that all I had to do was give up on my own efforts to make myself right and receive His gift.
That's what I did.

I received Jesus and He gave me the Holy Spirit.. the Comforter, you know? Our Paraclete, Advocate, Teacher...

So here is the model on which my new life is based, first out of Colossians 3:
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above,
where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
I hope you can see... that was the best news I'd ever heard, Ami... that I have died and my life is hidden with Christ in God.

And this, from Romans 8:

1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

And then, you know, in John 8 we read about that truth which makes people free... well, I saw that's Jesus - He is The Truth.
The new spirit which is received by those who call on His name is His Spirit.
That's why we read further along in John 8 and see that "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

And in 1Corinthians 2:
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world,
but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God..."

So, as you've said here... it's walking in that Spirit which allows us to overcome the flesh... the will and emotions... and to renew our minds to the truth of Christ. It's about identifying with Him and not with our earthly families or with our own flesh.
As new spiritual creations, we have a new spiritual family... we've been adopted

But I have lots of feelings float through, Ami... especially now that I'm consciously trying to be aware of them.
Maybe you've heard this old quote from Martin Luther... I'll paraphrase:
You can't stop the birds from flying over your head,
but you can sure keep them from building a nest in your hair!
So yes, I see that it's my responsibility to pay attention to which feelings I allow to hang around and get nurtured, developing into thoughts. When I start nursing the wrong feelings into thoughts and maybe even into actions... then pretty soon I have alot of nasty, bitter roots taking ahold. Thank God He is eager to receive our repentance and strengthen us by His grace!

So you're right - for a person who is born from above, made a new creation in Christ, feeling and thinking bad things does not make them a bad person.
Look at all the letters the apostle Paul wrote to people he called "saints". He writes plenty of correction of wrong things in those letters, but he doesn't address the letters to "the sinners at Corinth" or "the sinners at Ephesus".

The main thing is... God would never cause you to feel worthless, Ami.
That sort of condemnation is from the father of lies.
The value of something is often determined by the cost someone is willing to pay for it, right?
Take a look at the cost God paid to buy you back, to redeem you... then you will know your true value.
Once you see what really happened on the cross, no one will be able to convince you that you're worthless.

Love,
Hope

P.S.  I don't trust myself, Ami... I trust God in me. I trust Him to guide me and protect me... including from myself.
You see, I recognized that I had been my own worst enemy.
For me, I had to come to the point where I knew I couldn't trust myself in order to look up and see the One I can trust, always.

[/quote]


... it's walking in that Spirit which allows us to overcome the flesh... the will and emotions... and to renew our minds to the truth of Christ. It's about identifying with Him and not with our earthly families or with our own flesh.

WOW!  Amen!  Carolyn and Ami

Walking each day in His Spirit and in His Truth.

Leah