Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?

[Meh]

Bones, I think you might like this:

So I get the "opportunity" to go to the food bank as part of my weekly living-my-life routine at this point.

There is a line that is outside and people have to queue up for around 60 minutes or so give or take a few. Even if it's raining or I have also been out there in the snow. Generally it's not something people enjoy but you know they do it.

After I had been standing for quite a long time and was very slowly inching towards the entrance door of the food bank a man came and got in line right in front of me. I stood there for a few seconds thinking to myself "Okay so what if I say something to him about it or what if I say nothing". I decided to say to him "I don't know where you are supposed to be in line but I know that you haven't been standing in front of me for the past hour". Of course he started arguing with me, he even told me that I wasn't being polite to him. He started getting all puffy chested and had this cocky physical posture like "I'm a man". He had all these trendy tattoos on his neck. I just thought to myself "this guy is a snotty arrogant male-bar-fly".

I'm generally mousy and quiet but really have been trying to get over it. Figure this is a good chance to work on my skills.

He was arguing so much that the guy in front of him said come on man "It's only the foodbank, you don't have to get angry"
People just start sewing out words that don't matter and don't make sense...as if they can talk their way through anything.

My blood was starting to boil a little but I was going to let it go because in the end it's not worth it somehow I always feel like I'm the one responsible for creating the issue if I try to stand up for myself. We got up to the place where a female volunteer checks the person in so they cant go through multiple times. When it was his turn to check in ahead of me he started up the argument again trying to explain to the woman why he should be in line in front of me. Now I was going to let it go but since he brought it up again--I responded verbally. (not feeling voiceless now)

So another guy volunteer came over trying to be a mediator, I just stood my ground stating that the guy who cut in front of me hadn't been around at all and the man that I had been standing behind the whole time confirmed the same thing.

The guy who cut in front of me finally said something indignant "HE just couldn't take it anymore". All the while he was the person causing the problem and getting pissed off about it. He said he was going home and he left!! He was trying to say that he had been to the food bank hours earlier that morning. I didn't care because he's an adult he is still responsible for holding his own place in line. All of this just because he didn't want to go stand at the end.

So the mediator that works at the food bank was saying to the guy as he was walking away that he didn't want him to leave because "he wants to make sure everybody gets the food". Then the food bank worker looked at me and tried to explain that "some of the people we serve here have emotional problems". I looked at him right in the eyes and I said "I have emotional problems also".
The worker looked at me for a brief second like he really "saw me" then he walked away exasperated and with a slight smile on his face. 

The female worker who checks people in just cracked up laughing. She politely checked me in as usual smiling the whole time.

I guess I was supposed to act like the reasonable, mature, responsible, classy, understanding, mild-mannered, NICE adult and let the jerk cut in front of me because he has "emotional problems".

He wasn't developmentally delayed or anything. He actually was smelling like alcohol and according to him he drove there.

It's really petty but I have to admit I felt pretty triumphant. I think this is what it must feel for Narcissistic people who somehow know how to push buttons and pull strings and always get their way.

I actually feel like I have to get in touch with my inner 2 year old to be able to even try to stand up to people when they do this sort of stuff. The little girl that can say "MINE". Not the adult part that somehow has come to believe that nothing is "MINE".

In the end it's related to self - protection. The one that says I belong here and I have a right to fight as much as everybody else does.  I wish I had understood this years ago.

[BonesMS]

Bones, I think you might like this:

So I get the "opportunity" to go to the food bank as part of my weekly living-my-life routine at this point.

There is a line that is outside and people have to queue up for around 60 minutes or so give or take a few. Even if it's raining or I have also been out there in the snow. Generally it's not something people enjoy but you know they do it.

After I had been standing for quite a long time and was very slowly inching towards the entrance door of the food bank a man came and got in line right in front of me. I stood there for a few seconds thinking to myself "Okay so what if I say something to him about it or what if I say nothing". I decided to say to him "I don't know where you are supposed to be in line but I know that you haven't been standing in front of me for the past hour". Of course he started arguing with me, he even told me that I wasn't being polite to him.

I'm generally mousy and quiet but really have been trying to get over it. Figure this is a good chance to work on my skills.

He was arguing so much that the guy in front of him said come on man "It's only the foodbank, you don't have to get angry"

I was going to let it go because in the end it's not worth it somehow I always feel like I'm the one responsible for creating the issue if I try to stand up for myself. We got up to the place where a female volunteer checks the person in so they cant go through multiple times. When it was his turn to check in ahead of me he started up the argument again trying to explain to the woman why he should be in line in front of me. Now I was going to let it go but since he brought it up again--I responded.

So another guy volunteer came over trying to be a mediator, I just stood my ground stating that the guy who cut in front of me hadn't been around at all and the man that I had been standing behind the whole time confirmed the same thing.

The guy who cut in front of me finally said something indignant like HE just couldn't take it anymore. All the while he was the person causing problem and getting pissed off about it. He said he was going home and he left!! He also smelled like alcohol. He was trying to say that he had been to the food bank hours earlier that morning. I didn't care because he's an adult he is still responsible for holding his own place in line. All of this just because he didn't want to go stand at the end.

So the mediator that works at the food bank was saying to the guy as he was walking away that he didn't want him to leave because "he wants to make sure everybody gets the food". Then the food bank worker looked at me and tried to explain that "some of the people we serve here have emotional problems". I looked at him right in the eyes and I said "I have emotional problems also".
The worker looked at me for a brief second like he really "saw me" then he walked away exasperated.

The female worker who checks people in just cracked up laughing.

I guess I was supposed to act like the reasonable, mature, responsible, classy, understanding, mild-mannered, NICE adult and let the jerk cut in front of me because he has "emotional problems".

He wasn't developmentally delayed or anything. He actually was smelling like alcohol and according to him he drove there.

It's really petty but I have to admit I felt pretty triumphant. I think this is what it must feel for Narcissistic people who somehow know how to push buttons and pull strings and always get their way.

Bravo and Brava, Starlight!!!!  That is FANTASTIC that you asserted yourself!!!!  I'm so proud of you!!!!  WAY TO GO!!!!!  YIPPEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Meh]

I know it's funny right! He cut in front of me after I had been waiting an hour and then he was telling me that I'm impolite for pointing it out to him!!! 

[BonesMS]

I know it's funny right! He cut in front of me after I had been waiting an hour and then he was telling me that I'm impolite for pointing it out to him!!! 

   Sounds like what an N would do!

[BonesMS]

I don't think I will EVER understand the politicians on the LOCAL level in my community!!!   

Last night, I was attending a meeting where several constituents were expressing concerns about slumlords and other criminal elements taking advantage of loopholes in the law to conduct illegal and dangerous activities.  These constituents were asking the local community politicians about how to address these issues and close the loopholes.  Instead of answering this constituent's direct question about a situation happening in his neighborhood, the politician responds with:  "I wouldn't use the word 'loophole'.  That is not the correct word!"

ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?     Here is a constituent describing what he is seeing on his street, in his neighborhood, in his community, raising concerns and asking what can be done to address this BEFORE it gets any worse and all the politician wants to do is scold  for "not being politically correct" and play word games instead?!?!?!?  WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[BonesMS]

Today's Dear Margo seems to be about quite a few N's:

http://www.creators.com/advice/dear-margo/you-do-not-have-to-answer-every-question-that-is-asked.html

[sKePTiKal]

It's really petty but I have to admit I felt pretty triumphant. I think this is what it must feel for Narcissistic people who somehow know how to push buttons and pull strings and always get their way.

I actually feel like I have to get in touch with my inner 2 year old to be able to even try to stand up to people when they do this sort of stuff. The little girl that can say "MINE". Not the adult part that somehow has come to believe that nothing is "MINE".

In the end it's related to self - protection. The one that says I belong here and I have a right to fight as much as everybody else does.  I wish I had understood this years ago.

Yay!!! Star, this is GOOD. It's the basic chunk of understanding - the platform to build a great structure on. It's also a PITA while you're going through it - because you don't want to be accused of "starting something", just because you spoke up for what's right and yourself. Sounds like you're doing really well. I know, if it weren't for me learning how/when to let inner 2 yr old say "mine"... a lot of people would currently be taking advantage of me and I'd be miserable. (At least for the moment, I can pretend no one is taking advantage of me - I don't know that for a fact! LOL....)

One thing though. You're right, I think, that Ns are kinda addicted to always winning - and then lording that over everyone else and bragging about it. But to feel this yourself - when you worked for it, even when you had the support of others like in this situation - is really OK. I think we have to learn to allow ourselves that feeling; enjoy it in the moment; without equating ourselves with the Ns of the world. We're really not like them, just because we're capable of those feelings -- it doesn't mean we think we're more perfect and that everyone else is less than. That's a propaganda type of brainwashing idea; my mom used that one on me a lot. It's total BS. While Ns may not be capable of that kind of "other awareness" and putting their "win" into perspective... we certainly are.

But having that kind of "other awareness" - empathy - doesn't mean we have to always give way, excuse, make up for, fix - the people in situations who want to trample everyone else's rights or the rules of civil behavior. And there's still room in "practical tookit" for retreat, avoiding, being silent, etc. We just don't want to always use the same tool for every situation... and the real trick is learning which tool is called for... "in the moment"... in that situation. I'm still figuring that out...

Pardon the interruption Bones! Now, about that political correctness...

[BonesMS]

It's really petty but I have to admit I felt pretty triumphant. I think this is what it must feel for Narcissistic people who somehow know how to push buttons and pull strings and always get their way.

I actually feel like I have to get in touch with my inner 2 year old to be able to even try to stand up to people when they do this sort of stuff. The little girl that can say "MINE". Not the adult part that somehow has come to believe that nothing is "MINE".

In the end it's related to self - protection. The one that says I belong here and I have a right to fight as much as everybody else does.  I wish I had understood this years ago.

Yay!!! Star, this is GOOD. It's the basic chunk of understanding - the platform to build a great structure on. It's also a PITA while you're going through it - because you don't want to be accused of "starting something", just because you spoke up for what's right and yourself. Sounds like you're doing really well. I know, if it weren't for me learning how/when to let inner 2 yr old say "mine"... a lot of people would currently be taking advantage of me and I'd be miserable. (At least for the moment, I can pretend no one is taking advantage of me - I don't know that for a fact! LOL....)

One thing though. You're right, I think, that Ns are kinda addicted to always winning - and then lording that over everyone else and bragging about it. But to feel this yourself - when you worked for it, even when you had the support of others like in this situation - is really OK. I think we have to learn to allow ourselves that feeling; enjoy it in the moment; without equating ourselves with the Ns of the world. We're really not like them, just because we're capable of those feelings -- it doesn't mean we think we're more perfect and that everyone else is less than. That's a propaganda type of brainwashing idea; my mom used that one on me a lot. It's total BS. While Ns may not be capable of that kind of "other awareness" and putting their "win" into perspective... we certainly are.

But having that kind of "other awareness" - empathy - doesn't mean we have to always give way, excuse, make up for, fix - the people in situations who want to trample everyone else's rights or the rules of civil behavior. And there's still room in "practical tookit" for retreat, avoiding, being silent, etc. We just don't want to always use the same tool for every situation... and the real trick is learning which tool is called for... "in the moment"... in that situation. I'm still figuring that out...

Pardon the interruption Bones! Now, about that political correctness...

Thanks, P.R.

[sKePTiKal]

"I wouldn't use the word 'loophole'.  That is not the correct word!"

Bonesy, you know what this is, don't you? This is the game of "he who controls the definition, controls absolutely". It's also a self-delusion on the part of the speaker. There used to be a saying (pardon my French): If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.

And underneath all of that bluster, is a whole lot insecurity, an abyss of no real solutions/creativity/knowledge or skills - a clinging to status quo as if it will save him/her and fear that change, compromise, and a quasi-belief that seeing another's point of view is always "bad" -- is always "losing" -- is the same thing as being weak or not having "power". (Power is commonly misunderstood, to my way of thinking). You're going to hear a whole lot more like this over the next 6 months (from both "sides"... sigh... why do we have to have sides?? uuuggghhhhhh..... can't we just talk about ideas without an "us" and "them"???)

There's a technique that might be useful to you, Bones. It takes a lot of practice, and some courage, and a whole lotta persistence. But you'll have the opportunity to practice, if you're getting involved in local politics. When these types of things come up - it's useful to speak up, and restate the original speaker's "problem" or "request" in purely mechanical, functional, or process-oriented terms. (remove as many of the personal, david vs goliath, us & them words as possible). Then, ask what result is desired or needed. Then restate the issue, the goal again. That's the beginning of an action plan. Yeah, this is difficult. Sometimes, the words just start coming out of my mouth before I know I know what I'm saying. Sometimes it dawns on me - like I can "see" exactly how to get through to the people deflecting, dismissing or discounting an issue presented to them. Sometimes it takes me a month or so, too! And I have to repeat myself, over & over... and then one day, lo & behold, it comes out of someone elses' mouth - as their idea. I don't care as long as the idea has "traction", is practical, simple and benefits the majority of people.

And it's taken way longer than that and hours-long discussions with my "other side of the aisle" hairdresser to begin to really digest and understand (so that I can say it) what the deal is with reinventing definitions - and why. I really didn't want to believe that this is really what was going on... but yeah, sad to say, it is. Hype, propaganda... it's no different than what we were so conscious of in the 60s and early 70s. It only SEEMS worse - because it's everywhere in all the media - and there are so many imitators and parrots and people yelling about things that really don't even need to be contentious or debatable! Except -- there are egos on the line.

My new "hobby"... is finding ways to discover areas of agreement in the ideas and helping the other side see that they don't "lose" anything by agreeing. One person at a time. But sometimes, you have to pry the cold, dead, incorrect (and I can prove it) ideas from their not willing to exert their thinking-muscle minds...

[BonesMS]

"I wouldn't use the word 'loophole'.  That is not the correct word!"

Bonesy, you know what this is, don't you? This is the game of "he who controls the definition, controls absolutely". It's also a self-delusion on the part of the speaker. There used to be a saying (pardon my French): If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.

And underneath all of that bluster, is a whole lot insecurity, an abyss of no real solutions/creativity/knowledge or skills - a clinging to status quo as if it will save him/her and fear that change, compromise, and a quasi-belief that seeing another's point of view is always "bad" -- is always "losing" -- is the same thing as being weak or not having "power". (Power is commonly misunderstood, to my way of thinking). You're going to hear a whole lot more like this over the next 6 months (from both "sides"... sigh... why do we have to have sides?? uuuggghhhhhh..... can't we just talk about ideas without an "us" and "them"???)

There's a technique that might be useful to you, Bones. It takes a lot of practice, and some courage, and a whole lotta persistence. But you'll have the opportunity to practice, if you're getting involved in local politics. When these types of things come up - it's useful to speak up, and restate the original speaker's "problem" or "request" in purely mechanical, functional, or process-oriented terms. (remove as many of the personal, david vs goliath, us & them words as possible). Then, ask what result is desired or needed. Then restate the issue, the goal again. That's the beginning of an action plan. Yeah, this is difficult. Sometimes, the words just start coming out of my mouth before I know I know what I'm saying. Sometimes it dawns on me - like I can "see" exactly how to get through to the people deflecting, dismissing or discounting an issue presented to them. Sometimes it takes me a month or so, too! And I have to repeat myself, over & over... and then one day, lo & behold, it comes out of someone elses' mouth - as their idea. I don't care as long as the idea has "traction", is practical, simple and benefits the majority of people.

And it's taken way longer than that and hours-long discussions with my "other side of the aisle" hairdresser to begin to really digest and understand (so that I can say it) what the deal is with reinventing definitions - and why. I really didn't want to believe that this is really what was going on... but yeah, sad to say, it is. Hype, propaganda... it's no different than what we were so conscious of in the 60s and early 70s. It only SEEMS worse - because it's everywhere in all the media - and there are so many imitators and parrots and people yelling about things that really don't even need to be contentious or debatable! Except -- there are egos on the line.

My new "hobby"... is finding ways to discover areas of agreement in the ideas and helping the other side see that they don't "lose" anything by agreeing. One person at a time. But sometimes, you have to pry the cold, dead, incorrect (and I can prove it) ideas from their not willing to exert their thinking-muscle minds...

Thanks, P.R.

I was so aggravated last night at what I witnessed that I was speechless!!  I'm sure my facial expression said it all!!  Thankfully, the person who was speaking up about the problem defended his use of the term:  "loophole" and repeated to the politician that the definition of "loophole" FITS what is going on in his neighborhood and that the "loophole" NEEDS TO BE CLOSED!  PERIOD!!!!!

[BonesMS]

I happened to catch the tail-end of this last night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcesZ9os4LI

And the mother was NOT happy when Judge Toler supported the daughter-plaintiff in divorcing her alcoholic mother.  Judge Toler went so far as to tell the mother that she had NO right to do what she did to a CHILD!

YAY, Judge Toler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BonesMS]

The last letter in today's "Dear Abby" sounds OH SO FAMILIAR!!!!

http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/?uc_full_date=20120505

Unfortunately, I don't think Abby gets it about what this letter writer has been dealing with all his life with her!

[BonesMS]

Just a few of my pet peeves:

(1)  I'm VERY aware of my physical limitations so please permit me to putter in the Community Garden AT MY OWN PACE!  Don't bug me about being slow.

(2)  Don't tell me it doesn't matter how I plant things then go behind me and rip up everything I've done because it's NOT according to the way YOU like it!

(3)  When I need to stop and catch my breath, don't nag me to get right on something that very red-hot second!

(4) Don't tell me to plant something according to a written plan then suddenly change your mind about it after I've done the work!  I don't like having my time and sweat wasted!

I'm just feeling tired and bitchy right now!!!!!!

[Meh]

It's a full moon.

It's slow on the board.

It's cold outside here.

I feel b*tchy also.

Oh, Bones, Someone showed me how to do needle felting a couple of weeks ago. Gave me a needle to do it with. I started making funny little dolls. Then I got sort of burned out on it because it takes a long time. One of them is a guy with a bluish green beard and a dark green hat. I was trying to make them look like gnomes. Oh, one is like a red fox but sort of looks more like a bear and I made wings for it but haven't sewed them on. I like making stuff but I don't really have a lot of interest in the finished product. Once I've figured it out I sort of need to move on.

[BonesMS]

Thanks, Starlight.

I just got home a little while ago from participating in a CERT Olympics where I was playing a disaster victim...moulage make-up, etc.  (I told the make-up artists to have fun and just go for it and they had a ball making me look gross!)  Each team that was being tested were supposed to do a head-to-toe assessment on each victim they find in the scenario and they were supposed to discover the open compound fracture that was hidden under my shirt sleeve.  Almost every team missed it because they refused to look at it after I gave them several blatant clues!  (It was a good teaching moment after the scenario was finished.)  At one point, I encountered one inDUHvidual who persisted in behaving like an absolute TOTAL IDIOT even though he was being tasked to respond as a member of CERT.

No matter what instructions the team leader was giving him, he would REFUSE!  To make matters worse, he kept trying to force everyone in the scenario to focus only on him because he was convinced he's a comedian!     Finally, while still playing the role of injured victim, I asked him, point blank:  "What are you doing here?  If you are not going to follow the instructions of your team leader, WHY are you here?"  He just snickered and proclaimed that he doesn't do anything.  I used my being in character to tell him that (a) he's an idiotic moron and (b) GET OUTTA MY FACE!  He continued to do the opposite of what the team leader instructed him to do until the team leader finally got fed up with him and threw him out!

I commented about whether or not this guy was deliberately putting on an act e.g. refusing to put on protective gear, being oppositional to the team leader, behaving like a buffoon and interfering with everyone else.  The other members told me:  "Oh no!  This is NOT an act!  He's been acting out that way since the moment he arrived this morning!"  I told them I have a diagnosis for that idiot.....Narcissistic Personality Disorder!  Their response?   "YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"  I also told them that if anyone has taken a picture of him behaving the way he was, then the caption should read:  "EPIC FAIL!"

GEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!