Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?

[BonesMS]

Dear Bones,
  It is sweet how you answer everyone's posts.
  The potato salad and being late with the "phony excuse" is MY MOTHER  -- all the way. My M was not violent,but she did those types of things all the time.
   She was meeting someone at the subway station to go  to Boston to hear a lecture. My mother did not show up until much later. The person went to the lecture alone. Then ,my mother showed up much later . My mother thought the person was a jerk for getting upset. My mother did not know why the person "over reacted". She did not know why the person didn't like her.Her explanation was that the person was just a "jerk".
  If it was not so sad, it would be really,really funny.
It is sweet that you want to help the mother. the mother sounds very decent.       Love  Ami                             
 
   

Thanks, Ami!

Mom is a decent person in spite of being in the late stages of Alzheimer's.  I can't help but wonder what "friend" does to her own mother whenever I'm not around to say:  "Hey!  Now wait a minute!"

Bones

[BonesMS]

Thanks, Hope!

Ironically, she puts on the pseudo-stupid routine whenever anyone corrects her.

Bones

Dear Bones,

You're welcome!

Reading your last posts and thinking back to your previous mentions of this friend, I can really sense her anger toward...no, hatred of... her family.
Her plea to add celery to the heirloom potato salad sounds like a childish attempt to rewrite history... and very sad.
I feel so sorry for her and for her mother.

I wanted to say also, that I don't believe boundary invasions are always NPD behaviour, by any means... and that blank look of your friend sounds to me like an act of splitting - dissociating - which I've think implies something else going on with her... within her.

When I was a little girl, my matron aunt was always wanting to fix this or that on me, to tend to me, as I realize now, as she felt herself to have been neglected... and she could be very pushy and invasive. I think she identified so closely with me at that point, that she really thought we were the one in the same. Maybe that's what's happened on occasion with you and your friend... like at your graduation... she couldn't stand to see herself doing the things you were doing and was desperate to correct them/ you.
Anyhow, aunt lived with her mother, my grandma, all of her life, acting out her numerous resentments in a very passive-aggressive manner and consistently denying accountability, all the while defying her mother (and anyone close to her) in the most ridiculous ways. Grandma disliked clutter, so aunt would heap it in every corner of the common space they shared, especially catalogs, all around their little kitchen nook table, while she had a huge bedroom (my grandma's was a closet, in comparison) with a huge desk and floor space in which she could have kept these piles. But no - they had to be prominently displayed for the purpose of aggravating her mother. That's just one example of a kazillion.
She was always late, too. Always. And so very childish... would set her eyeglasses down in the middle of a stairway or give a young child in the family some treasured possession with which to play. All of this begged someone to say, "uhh... that's not wise", so that she could replay her "you can't make me grow up" routine. Toward the end of my grandma's life, aunt chose to get some vengeance by uncovering grandma's weaknesses in a very deliberate manner, speaking with relish of grandma's incontinence and other daily issues of a woman in her 90's.
It was really pitiful to see... and your friend reminds me of her.
Dunno whether that helps any, but just thought I'd share it

With love,
Hope

Thanks, Hope!

This "friend" also complains often about her supervisor...referring to her as "The Nazi"...because the supervisor holds her accountable for her actions on the job.  I thought it was highly ironic when she started complaining about how her supervisor was telling her to take a class in Time Management, given that she often ignores deadlines and schedules to do what she wants, which negatively impacts others.  I also notice that she tends to attach "strings" to gifts.  She gave me an item to store a jigsaw puzzle on and told me it was a gift.  Then, she attempted to take it back for a refund because "after all, she had paid for it".  I informed her that a gift is a gift...PERIOD!  She backed off.  She also demanded that I "let her finish my puzzle" FOR me...to which I said "NO!  I will work on my own jigsaw puzzle at my own pace, NOT hers, in my own home!"  She again attempted to "remind" me that SHE had paid for it!  She again got reminded of her statement to me that it is a GIFT.  It's hard to know what to make of this.

Bones

[BonesMS]

Hi Bones,
This sounds almost like a neurological deficit of some sort, or a little PTSD-ish (you mentioned it happens when people are yelling at her). I wonder if it could be:

Mother told her "NO", the recipe doesn't need those other ingredients....leave it.  A minute or two later, "friend" asks her mother if she wants celery.  Mother, again, told her "NO, the recipe does not need it."  This was repeated over and over again for about 30-45 minutes until Mom started yelling "NO means NO!"  And yet, "friend" kept repeating the same question acting pseudo-stupid.  Finally I chimed in with "What part of the word "NO" do you NOT understand?!?!?  Mom has said 'NO, she does NOT need celery!  Please STOP!!"  "Friend" gave us both the blank stare and the glazed eyes.

I have a close friend w/PTSD who often does a blank uncomprehending stare. Sometimes she appears unintelligent although I know she is not. She tells me that she has to work hard to process verbal information. When she's tired, she can barely speak coherently.

Hops

This "friend" did admit that when she gets wound up and excited about something, she doesn't listen very well.  At the same time, I feel that should not give her permission to invade and violate my physical space.

Bones

[Certain Hope]

Thanks, Hope!

This "friend" also complains often about her supervisor...referring to her as "The Nazi"...because the supervisor holds her accountable for her actions on the job.  I thought it was highly ironic when she started complaining about how her supervisor was telling her to take a class in Time Management, given that she often ignores deadlines and schedules to do what she wants, which negatively impacts others.  I also notice that she tends to attach "strings" to gifts.  She gave me an item to store a jigsaw puzzle on and told me it was a gift.  Then, she attempted to take it back for a refund because "after all, she had paid for it".  I informed her that a gift is a gift...PERIOD!  She backed off.  She also demanded that I "let her finish my puzzle" FOR me...to which I said "NO!  I will work on my own jigsaw puzzle at my own pace, NOT hers, in my own home!"  She again attempted to "remind" me that SHE had paid for it!  She again got reminded of her statement to me that it is a GIFT.  It's hard to know what to make of this.

Bones

She sure sounds like a unique individual, Bones  I don't know what to make of it, either.

Was she wanting to take the puzzle board back for a refund because she knew that you hadn't yet finished the puzzle?
That's so odd... like she was trying to hold you to time constraints on that when she doesn't honor genuine deadlines herself.

My aunt could never get along with anyone at work and she never cared about how her tomfoolery impacted others, either.
Maybe this is some strange combination of complexes that's not yet been given an acronym 

Then again, I get that blank look, too... if someone yells (which thankfully doesn't happen in real life anymore).

Love,
Hope

[BonesMS]

Thanks, Hope!

This "friend" also complains often about her supervisor...referring to her as "The Nazi"...because the supervisor holds her accountable for her actions on the job.  I thought it was highly ironic when she started complaining about how her supervisor was telling her to take a class in Time Management, given that she often ignores deadlines and schedules to do what she wants, which negatively impacts others.  I also notice that she tends to attach "strings" to gifts.  She gave me an item to store a jigsaw puzzle on and told me it was a gift.  Then, she attempted to take it back for a refund because "after all, she had paid for it".  I informed her that a gift is a gift...PERIOD!  She backed off.  She also demanded that I "let her finish my puzzle" FOR me...to which I said "NO!  I will work on my own jigsaw puzzle at my own pace, NOT hers, in my own home!"  She again attempted to "remind" me that SHE had paid for it!  She again got reminded of her statement to me that it is a GIFT.  It's hard to know what to make of this.

Bones

She sure sounds like a unique individual, Bones  I don't know what to make of it, either.

Was she wanting to take the puzzle board back for a refund because she knew that you hadn't yet finished the puzzle?
That's so odd... like she was trying to hold you to time constraints on that when she doesn't honor genuine deadlines herself.

My aunt could never get along with anyone at work and she never cared about how her tomfoolery impacted others, either.
Maybe this is some strange combination of complexes that's not yet been given an acronym 

Then again, I get that blank look, too... if someone yells (which thankfully doesn't happen in real life anymore).

Love,
Hope

Thanks, Hope!

I'm glad I'm not alone in this!  It's just frustrating, though!

Bones

[Certain Hope]

Dear Bones,

It is very frustrating. I wish I'd had a resource like this board when I was struggling to deal with my aunt... but she's gone now.

I felt very sorry for her always... she was so miserable, and for nearly all of her last 25 years of life, she was ill with one thing or another.
She gave many gifts to her nieces and nephew... and to my children. She had a knack for finding the most special, precious items... always, only the best. Pretty little trinkets and decorative stuff... things that we could never have purchased on our own.

Thought of something else with her regarding boundaries to share with you. I didn't realize what it was about at the time, but years ago, when my oldest girls were very small, she stopped by our house with my Grandma to visit. The kids were chatting with their Great-Grandma when suddenly - Aunt stood in the middle of the room & pulled off her wig to show them her baldness (she'd been undergoing chemo for one of her many cancers). She kept trying to bend down to give my little girls a better view, while they just stood there, mouths hanging open...    I think she even shocked my Grandma, because it took a bit before finally she said to Aunt, "Time to put your hairpiece back on"  very firmly. And I saw the expression whisk across aunt's face... rage. Then the blank look.

With what I now know, I'd say that she was furious with her own mother for not giving her medical concerns enough attention. But I also know that it never would have been enough attention for her... she was bottomless well. Very sad.

Love,
Hope

[Tweety]

Bones,
Hey congratulations , Sorry I'm a little late to this post.( no its not on purpose  lol lol
Bravo for all your accomplishments.
 If I had a nickle for everytime I had said "What part of No don't you understand" Id be rich. Thank you for sharing all this. Something for me to think about. I too have seen that blank look. Very interesting. PSTD , maybe...wanting to be the center of attention, definitely. Underlying jealousy/competition absolutely.
Again... way to go
Much luck  and best wishes in your field!!!!!!!!!!!
Love Tweety

[BonesMS]

Dear Bones,

It is very frustrating. I wish I'd had a resource like this board when I was struggling to deal with my aunt... but she's gone now.

I felt very sorry for her always... she was so miserable, and for nearly all of her last 25 years of life, she was ill with one thing or another.
She gave many gifts to her nieces and nephew... and to my children. She had a knack for finding the most special, precious items... always, only the best. Pretty little trinkets and decorative stuff... things that we could never have purchased on our own.

Thought of something else with her regarding boundaries to share with you. I didn't realize what it was about at the time, but years ago, when my oldest girls were very small, she stopped by our house with my Grandma to visit. The kids were chatting with their Great-Grandma when suddenly - Aunt stood in the middle of the room & pulled off her wig to show them her baldness (she'd been undergoing chemo for one of her many cancers). She kept trying to bend down to give my little girls a better view, while they just stood there, mouths hanging open...    I think she even shocked my Grandma, because it took a bit before finally she said to Aunt, "Time to put your hairpiece back on"  very firmly. And I saw the expression whisk across aunt's face... rage. Then the blank look.

With what I now know, I'd say that she was furious with her own mother for not giving her medical concerns enough attention. But I also know that it never would have been enough attention for her... she was bottomless well. Very sad.

Love,
Hope

Thanks, Hope.

Also, with my "friend", I couldn't help but notice that she refused to even acknowledge me as I got out of their car...refused to look in my direction or even speak.  I just let it go and went about my business.  I just didn't like the feeling of being physically violated after she had been told "NO".

Bones

[BonesMS]

Bones,
Hey congratulations , Sorry I'm a little late to this post.( no its not on purpose  lol lol
Bravo for all your accomplishments.
 If I had a nickle for everytime I had said "What part of No don't you understand" Id be rich. Thank you for sharing all this. Something for me to think about. I too have seen that blank look. Very interesting. PSTD , maybe...wanting to be the center of attention, definitely. Underlying jealousy/competition absolutely.
Again... way to go
Much luck  and best wishes in your field!!!!!!!!!!!
Love Tweety

Thanks, Tweety!

You are very kind!

Bones

[Bella_French]

Lol, I wanted to punch her after reading your post, Bones. Not that I would, but thats how I felt.

Yes, I think the ability to commit boundary violation can be a trait anyone can have, for any number of reasons. But she sounds like a weirdo. She seemed to do things you asked her not to do *right after you asked her not to do it*. That's what I find weird, to the point where I wouldn't feel very comfortable with her as a friend.

Maybe the others are right, and she was jealous..that sounds like a good explanation.

Can you get rid of her somehow?

[Certain Hope]

Also, with my "friend", I couldn't help but notice that she refused to even acknowledge me as I got out of their car...refused to look in my direction or even speak.  I just let it go and went about my business.  I just didn't like the feeling of being physically violated after she had been told "NO".

Bones

Dear Bones,

I know this one. Enforcing your "no" made you invisible... you ceased to exist in the eyes of the person by whom you refused to be violated, with whom you would not... meld.  Maybe this is some primitive, instinctual response, I dunno, but my dog has this behavior...  when she's wanting to do something about which I'm determined to set firm limits, she simply tunes me out & gives me her back. When I try to turn her head toward me to make eye contact, she will look any other direction but at me. A toddler will do the same thing. It's a very passive form of defiance which says, "you're not the boss of me."
Umm... back to dogs - they have no sense  or consciousness of self, right? A dog looks in the mirror and thinks she's seeing another dog. Seems to me that's what is going on with these people who are unable to see those with whom they feel close as... "other". I imagine you become invisible any time your opinion or view differs from hers. That's how it is with me and my mother.

Love,
Hope

[BonesMS]

Lol, I wanted to punch her after reading your post, Bones. Not that I would, but thats how I felt.

Yes, I think the ability to commit boundary violation can be a trait anyone can have, for any number of reasons. But she sounds like a weirdo. She seemed to do things you asked her not to do *right after you asked her not to do it*. That's what I find weird, to the point where I wouldn't feel very comfortable with her as a friend.

Maybe the others are right, and she was jealous..that sounds like a good explanation.

Can you get rid of her somehow?

Thanks, Bella!

I have made no attempt to contact her since I arrived back home and she has not communicated with me....which is fine by me.

Bones

[BonesMS]

Also, with my "friend", I couldn't help but notice that she refused to even acknowledge me as I got out of their car...refused to look in my direction or even speak.  I just let it go and went about my business.  I just didn't like the feeling of being physically violated after she had been told "NO".

Bones

Dear Bones,

I know this one. Enforcing your "no" made you invisible... you ceased to exist in the eyes of the person by whom you refused to be violated, with whom you would not... meld.  Maybe this is some primitive, instinctual response, I dunno, but my dog has this behavior...  when she's wanting to do something about which I'm determined to set firm limits, she simply tunes me out & gives me her back. When I try to turn her head toward me to make eye contact, she will look any other direction but at me. A toddler will do the same thing. It's a very passive form of defiance which says, "you're not the boss of me."
Umm... back to dogs - they have no sense  or consciousness of self, right? A dog looks in the mirror and thinks she's seeing another dog. Seems to me that's what is going on with these people who are unable to see those with whom they feel close as... "other". I imagine you become invisible any time your opinion or view differs from hers. That's how it is with me and my mother.

Love,
Hope

Good point!

If this "friend" is unable to respect the boundaries of other people, then she is NOT a friend!

Bones

[Certain Hope]

Good point!

If this "friend" is unable to respect the boundaries of other people, then she is NOT a friend!

Bones

Exactly, Bones. She is probably not a person with whom you (or anyone else, I don't suppose) will be able to share the level of trust and intimacy which we all need for nourishment.
I'm in the midst of recognizing this within some of my own relationships.
You've defined some of her behavior as unacceptable and told her so, as I have with a couple of friends. What's next?
For me, it's to feed these folks with a very long-handled spoon, lest I get my arm chewed off.
Practically speaking, that means I keep them in my prayers and love them from a good safe distance, free from the repercussions of their lack of boundaries which can assault anyone nearby with overflowing anger, interference, sabotaging behavior, and any number of other negative consequences.

Hope

[Overcomer]

Do you think N people have a sense of entitlement hat makes them think they are exempt from normal courtesy?  I know my mom is always tugging at my shirt or licking her finger to wipe something off my face.  The last time she did that I grabbed her arm and said DO NOT SPIT ON MY FACE!