Author Topic: my continued self-discovery or the most reflexive post ever  (Read 2109 times)

roses in her eyes

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my continued self-discovery or the most reflexive post ever
« on: September 04, 2007, 01:46:56 PM »
After only a week since discovering about NPD and how it explains so very much about almost everything in my life, my quest for self-discovery and happiness continues unabated. Which is not to imply that I'm not still emotionally frazzled right now. I visited my NPD sister and her family this weekend and found that my awareness of her sickness and its exhibits throughout her house and in her children changed little--but explained more--of what I was feeling.  Particularly, the palpable feelings of acute stress with just being there: headache, loss of appetite.  Otherwise, I was able to recognize her symptomatic behaviors consistently and when one of her comments to me happened to bump up against reality, I wouldn't waste much energy trying to explain the rationale from any sane person on planet Earth's perspective and would just shrug my shoulders and play along. I still couldn't help feel a profound sadness for my nieces, though.

I couldn't even write before now, I felt so badly, especially when reading about other's problems on this board that make mine seem almost trivial. I'm glad there are other people here to offer emotional support, because I just don't have much to spare right now.  So thanks to everyone who has provided some support to me. At the very least I hope by sharing my experience it may provide future benefit to others.


Moving on to my next subject of self-discovery: In my desire to further understand how my career has been affected by my NP, I started to look into the Myers-Briggs personality profiles and other similar models.  I quickly performed a self-evaluation and found the resulting type's description to be highly accurate for me.  Almost spot on in so many ways,  It seems to explain me extremely well. But is this personality typical of someone with an NPD parent? Or is merely an example of my experience when combined with having an NPD parent?  In other words are they correlated or am I just reflexively demonstrating my own self-discovery? (as you will see when you read the following)






Profile by Sandra Krebs Hirsch and Jean Kummerow

INTPs are known for their quest for logical purity, which motivates them to examine universal truths and principles. They are constantly asking themselves and others the questions 'Why?' and 'Why not?' Clear and quick thinkers, they are able to focus with great intensity on their interests. They appreciate elegance and efficiency in thought processes and require them, even more so, in their own communications. They may be seen as unwilling to accept what everyone else regards as truth. While often low key in outward appearance and approach, the INTP is 'hard as nails' when challenging a truth. INTPs do not like to deal with the obvious. They are at their best in building conceptual models and developing unusual and complex ideas.

 

Living

As children, INTPs are inwardly focused, often enjoying their won thoughts more than the company of others. They are full of questions, sometimes voiced, most often not. INTP children often challenge and even stump their elders. They enjoy fantasy, mysteries, inventing, thinking and doing things that may be somewhat atypical for other children of their age, and they sense their uniqueness early on. If INTPs are fond of books or games, it is likely that their choices will be the current rage. If and INTP is fond of music, it is likely to be of and unusual sort.

INTPs tend to either respect and go along with society's rules, or to question and rebel against them. Their response to these rules depends on how the rules might affect them. When INTPs do not like the rules, they are quick to find the flaws in the rule makers' thinking, regardless of their status, position in the hierarchy, or renown.

As young adults choosing careers, INTPs either set a course and work toward it quietly yet forcefully or continue to resist and rebel against society's expectations and irrational rules. They may either focus in depth on a major interest or move from one interest to another without showing others - friends, colleagues, and bosses - their reasons why. It is the process, the quest, that has been most interesting to them. Once they have found the answer, they do not often share it because the answer is obvious, and documenting the obvious is redundant. This attitude includes a tendency not to response or speak up in groups, because the INTP feels that what he or she was going to say seems so obvious that no one would want to hear it. As INTPs mature, they continue their quest for logical purity, but now it includes more balance in their activities.

 

Learning and Working

The INTP is a relentless learner in areas that hold his or her interest. They often seem 'lost in thought,' and this characteristic appears very early. INTPs enjoy the life of the mind and the learning process, regardless of whether that process takes place in a formal sense. They are often characterized as life-long learners.

In school, well-rounded INTPs work on their assignments with a great deal of inward energy and interest that is usually not apparent to others. They tend to connect unrelated thoughts. As learners, they are able to find logical flaws in the thinking of others. They analyze these flaws and find ideas for further study. They go to great depths in their analysis.

In taking exams, they prefer theorectical questions. When INTPs view a test, teachers, or subjects as irrelevant, they may respond as follows: 'I know what I need to know about this topic; I may even know more than my teacher. The teacher made this test, and this test is dumb. Therefore, my teacher is dumb, and I will not do the test.' Because of such reactions, the INTP's academic record may include successes or may be filled with failures.

INTPs contribute a logical, system-building approach to their work. They like being the architect of a plan, because of the scheming and thinking involved, far more than being the implementer of that plan. Implementation tends to be drudgery. They are content to sit back and think about what might work, given their view of the situation. INTPs may ignore standard operating procedures. The hours that they spend are not what is important to them, but rather the completion of their thought process. When their projects are of interest to them, they can become mesmerized and may even work through the night. when their projects are not intriguing, their work is considered drudgrery, and the INTP finds it difficult to stay motivated.

INTPs usually find a place in their work for using their logical and structured thinking. They enjoy work that allows them to abstract, to generalize beyond the data, and to build models. Flexibility is desired because INTPs like to 'do the job when they want to do it and as they want to do it.' They also prefer occupations in which the hierarchy is minimal and not important. This attitude seems from their firm belief that, to be legitimate, a hierarchy should be built on the competency of individuals who are logically placed according to their talents.

Some occupations seem to be more attractive to INTPs: biologist, chemist, computer programmer, computer system analyst, lawyer, photographer, psychologist, researcher, surveyor, writer and other occupations that allow them to use their logical thinking in appropriate ways.

 

Loving

For the INTP, love has three distinct phases: falling in, staying in, and getting out. These phases relate to their thinking preference and its need for order and sequence.

An INTP characterized falling in love as a stage of complete loss of rationality that may last a year or less. When an INTP falls in love, he or she falls hard - an all or nothing phenomenon. At this stage, INTPs are likely to be very lively, almost giddy, in their new love. The experience rushes over them and carries them along. They do not structure or control it but simply enjoy and experience it. They do many loving things and they are curious about their loved one and are able to overlook his or her flaws. They may bravely ignore the realities of distance, weather, and time to be with the loved one.

As relationships progress to the staying-in-love phase, INTPs begin to evaluate their structure and form. They may withdraw at this point because they are moving toward their more customary inward style. Outward demonstrations of affection lessen, and the giddy state changes. Interactions are more matter of fact, perhaps even impersonal. INTPs take their commitments to their partner seriously; however, they may not discuss these commitments at any length with their partner or with other people, because their commitments seem so obvious to them.

Falling out of love, which may not always occur, results from an analysis of the real expectations and needs of the relationship. Often an undefined line is crossed that neither partner knows about ahead of time. However, the INTP knows after the line has been crossed, and then the relationship deteriorates or ends. If INTPs recognize their emotions and needs as valid, they are able to sever relationship ties fairly cleanly. However, if they misjudge their own needs and those of their partner, the breakup can be messy, perhaps affecting other aspects of their lives for a long time. If the INTP shares some common interests with the former loved one, the relationship continues but on a different level. When INTPs have a reason to continue relationships, they do.

Profile by David Keirsey

INTPs exhibit the greatest precision in thought and language of all the types; they tend to see distinctions and inconsistencies in thought and language instantaneously. The one word which captures the unique style of INTPs is architect-the architect of ideas and systems as well as the architect of edifices. This type is found in only 1 percent of the population and therefore is not encountered as frequently as some of the other types.

INTPs detect contradictions in statements no matter how distant in space or time the contradictory statements were produced. The intellectual scanning of INTPs has a principled quality; that is, INTPs search for whatever is relevant and pertinent to the issue at hand. Consequently, INTPs can concentrate better than any other type.

Authority derived from office, position, or wide acceptance does not impress INTPs. Only statements that are logical and coherent carry weight. External authority per se is irrelevant. INTPs abhor redundancy and incoherence. Possessing a desire to understand the universe, an INTP is constantly looking for natural law. Curiosity concerning these keys to the universe is a driving force in this type.

INTPs prize intelligence in themselves and in others, but can become intellectual dilettantes as a result of their need to amass ideas, principles, or understanding of behavior. And once they know something, it is remembered. INTPs can become obsessed with analysis. Once caught up in a thought process, that thought process seems to have a will of its own for INTPs, and they persevere until the issue is comprehended in all its complexity. They can be intellectual snobs and may show impatience at times with others less endowed intellectually. This quality, INTPs find, generates hostility and defensive behavior on the part of others, who may describe an INTP as arrogant.

For INTPs, the world exists primarily to be understood. Reality is trivial, a mere arena for proving ideas. It is essential that the universe is understood and that whatever is stated about the universe is stated correctly, with coherence and without redundancy. This is the INTPs final purpose. It matters not whether others understand or accept his or her truths.

 

Career

The INTP is the logician, the mathematician, the philosopher, the scientist; any pursuit requiring architecture of ideas intrigues this type. INTP's should not, however, be asked to work out the implementation or application of their models to the real world.

The INTP is the architect of a system and leaves it to others to be the builder and the applicator. Very often therefore, the INTP's work is not credited to him or her. The builder and the applier gains fame and fortune, while the INTP's name remains obscure. Appreciation of an INTP's theoretical work frequently comes posthumously-or the work may never be removed from library shelves at all and thus lost.

INTP's tend not to be writers or to go into sales work. They are, however, often excellent teachers, particularly for advanced students, although INTP's do not always enjoy much popularity, for they can be hard taskmasters. They are not good at clerical tasks and are impatient with routine details. They prefer to work quietly, without interruption, and often alone. If an organization is to use the talents of an INTP appropriately, the INTP must be given an efficient support staff who can capture ideas as they emerge and before the INTP loses interest and turns to another idea.

Our "architect" is not merely a designer of buildings. There is the architect of ideas (the philosopher), the architect of number systems (the mathematician), the architect of computer languages (the programmer), and on and on. In short, abstract design is the forte of the architect and coherence is the primary issue.

 

Home

INTP's take their mating relationship seriously and usually are faithful and devoted-albeit preoccupied at times. They are not likely to welcome constant social activity or disorganization in the home. In all probability, the mate of an INTP will initiate and manage the social life. If left to his or her own devices the INTP mate will retreat into the world of books and emerge only when physical needs become imperative. INTP's are, however, willing, compliant, and easy to live with, although somewhat forgetful of appointments, anniversaries, and rituals of daily living unless reminded. They may have difficulty expressing their emotions verbally, and the mate of an INTP may believe that he/she is somewhat taken for granted. As a parent, the INTP is devoted; they enjoy children, and are serious about their upbringing. The home of an INTP parent is usually calm, low-key in discipline, but well run and ordered.

INTP's deal with the environment primarily through intuition, and their strongest quality, the thinking function, remains relatively hidden except in close associations. Therefore, INTP's are often misunderstood, seen as difficult to know, and seldom perceived at their true level of competency. They are inclined to be shy except when with close friends, and their reserve is difficult to penetrate. They are very adaptable until one of their principles is violated. Then INTP's are not adaptable at all! They may have difficulty in being understood by others because they tend to think in a complicated fashion and want to be precise, never redundant in their communications. Because their feeling qualities may be underdeveloped, they may be insensitive to the wants and wishes of others, often unaware of the existence of these wants and wishes.

 








teartracks

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Re: my continued self-discovery or the most reflexive post ever
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2007, 02:09:54 PM »





Hi Roses,

The Briggs Meyers test rang very true for me too.  I'm INTJ female.  But is this personality typical of someone with an NPD parent? Or is merely an example of my experience when combined with having an NPD parent?  In other words are they correlated or am I just reflexively demonstrating my own self-discovery? (as you will see when you read the following)   I've asked myself the same question.  When I first learned that I was INTJ, I had two immediate first thoughts.   One, well, that explains a lot.  Two, no wonder my mother treated me the way she did.  I was too challenging for her.  Then I thought, No, that can't be true because she treats everyone the same way (except chosen males in her circle and even they are not totally exempt depending on her whims).  Gradually since studying the personality thing, I've come to embrace my uniqueness and different outlook and to enjoy being me.   

I was very moved by your original post and wished you would put it on the Members Stories board.  But of course, that is your decision.   I enjoy the way you write and how precisely you are able to make a point.

tt

roses in her eyes

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Re: my continued self-discovery or the most reflexive post ever
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2007, 03:41:38 PM »
Thanks, tt, for answering my question.  And your compliment about:  "...how precisely you are able to make a point." was what I was alluding to when I stated the reflexive nature of my post, since it is in fact completely consistent with the INTP personality as described; as is this very self-referential analysis and so on and so on into infinity!

It's really quite a helpful discovery. (It's interesting, tt, because although you described a similar strong identification with your INTJ personality and because you'd think INTP would be pretty similar to INTJ; I was surprised to not really identify that strongly with an INTJ description when I looked one up.)

It's helpful in that I've always felt unique in certain ways about my aptitudes and abilities and I've been okay with it. Considering INTP is the rarest of the 16 types and constitutes only 1 or 2% of the population, it underscores that I'm different. There's different-bad and different-different. (Maybe one day I'll find different-good, but I've always been okay with different-different.)  The different-bad totally stems from the pernicious feeling I've always carried that something just feels wrong, particularly with my family, but also with how I feel about myself and I didn't know exactly what it is.

This knowledge has helped me start to understand that I am unique without my NPD family and that as much of my pain has been ABOUT my uniqueness and the utter inscrutability it must have presented to my NM.  It also gives me a better appreciation of my unique perspective and abilities as NOT being inextricably linked to the abuse I've suffered.  It shaped the nature of the interraction, but it didn't cause me to be this way. The abuse would have taken a different form if I were different, but it still would have come.

The fact that I've been utterly left on my own to discover my own personality should be familiar to everyone with a NP or two, no doubt.

teartracks

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Re: my continued self-discovery or the most reflexive post ever
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2007, 12:53:42 AM »




Hi Roses,

Otherwise, I was able to recognize her symptomatic behaviors consistently and when one of her comments to me happened to bump up against reality, I wouldn't waste much energy trying to explain the rationale from any sane person on planet Earth's perspective and would just shrug my shoulders and play along. I still couldn't help feel a profound sadness for my nieces, though.

You're making much faster progress than I did.  It took me years to get to the place where  I could accept that it was what it was and let it be.  More power to you if you can process the process quickly. 

Just for fun I won't tell you who she is, but the board has an active participant who is also, INFP.  I bet if you try you'll recognize her by the way she writes.  You INFP's are a much kinder, gentler folk than us INTJ's.  How do y'all do that?

This is a little story indirectly related to your having asked your M for money after your job loss.  My FOO were dirt farmers.   I don't want to be ungrateful, but over the years my Nmom credited herself with giving us food, clothing and shelter.  She was indeed a hard working woman and I think her only selfness came from tasking, and sadly, competing with everyone around her for the best worker spotlight.  But where I was going with the story is that one day not long ago, I got to thinking of how our life really was on the farm.  From the age of six we were put to work.  No more consideration was given us kids than was given to the mule that pulled the plough, and the wagon.  The mule's name  was Maude.  She got food and shelter (didn't need a blanket since we were in the sub tropics) just the same as us.  So in essence we pulled our own weight.   So taking credit for providing the necessities of our existence as if we'd had no part in the provision was in reality a half truth.   Our reality was one of strictly enforced emotional flatlining.  Except we were encouraged to be mean to one another.  Lord it's a long story.  Somewhere in past posts, most of it is here.  One day I want to pull it all together and put it on the Members Stories board.  Glad you put your story there. 

Different/different worked out well for me living the farm life.  Work in exchange for the freedom there was a win/win.  As far as the Nparent part, it would have been the same if we'd lived in a castle and much more confining. 

Sorry for the frazzles you're experiencing and the job loss.  I think you're going to do OK.

tt


Time is on your side
No more need in runnin'
No more need to hide
No more need to cry

Life Is what ya find
Wanderin' on the other side
No more need to sigh
No more need to lie
Make it what ya can
No more need in wastin'
Love's around the bend
No more time to lend

Hope the best to be
Just to make you see
Love's around tne bend
No more time to lend
Now it's up to you
It's all up in your head
What ya gonna do
Bring yourself true

Earth, Wind and Fire





roses in her eyes

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Re: my continued self-discovery or the most reflexive post ever
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2007, 03:35:17 PM »
It may seem like progress, but I'm still far from it...

It's always been pretty easy for me to stay away from my sister. I don't like her and I never have. I wasn't able to identify all the same things about my NM until much later. I guess I never expected any love from my sister in the first place.  But how could I have known to take that position with my NM? Especially when my NF was also a nightmare growing up? It's like my parents pulled the good cop/bad cop routine on me. I never had a chance. Fuckers.


Hopalong

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Re: my continued self-discovery or the most reflexive post ever
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2007, 12:32:13 PM »
Hey Roses,

Don't beat yourself up.
Quote
But how could I have known to take that position with my NM?


Nobody knows. Those who do are in the minority. Ns are everywhere and people suffer from N parenting all over the place. I think estimates are, about 10% of the population either is NPD or has very narcissitic traits. This is the U.S.N.

But knowledge of character, what it's made of, is usually limited to religious settings. Knowledge of basic psychology you don't get until college. Knowledge of personality disorders might not come to you at all, depending on what you study or are drawn to.

I feel that finding out about Narcissism was a stroke of good luck (delivered by an N boyfriend...whom I assumed could not be N because he talked ABOUT Nism...ooh, so slick). Anyway, you do know now. And there's such healing power in it.

Chin up,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."