Getting Others to Understand

[sun blue]

Ok, ok, I know before I even post this that most people will say I shouldn't even be concerned with this and that it's not a priority.  I can't really explain why but it is very important to me.

What I'm talking about is to get others (family members, specifically) to recognize that NPD is alive and well and kickin' it in my family and, more importantly, has had a very detrimental effect on me.  In my case, the person I'm concerned with is my "healthy" brother.  He is my last hope.  I know there is no hope my NPD mother, NPD sister and co-dependent will ever get it or even be willing to listen.  That will never happen.  But for some reason, I SOOO want my brother to get it.  Even though he has not been affected in any significant way (he has basically gotten all the things people want from life save for a close relationship with his parents which, of course, like me he will never get).

In the past, I have put together reams of information about NPD, spelling it out for him and connecting the dots for me to show him how specific examples in our family's history demonstrate it is NPD.  I explained to him some of the negative experiences of my life and how I believe they are connected.  He attended one therapy session with me when I tried to explain it to him further (even though my therapist didn't really want to focus on the NPD).  But instead, bottom-line way of looking at life just focuses on my clincial depression (take your meds, get a job, see your doc, etc.).  Unlike me, he's never had a problem developing relationships and he doesn't seem to understand that the ramifications of my depression go far beyond just physical fatigue and endless sadness.

So, has anyone here had this experience?  Do you have any "healthy", relatively unscathed siblings who don't get it?  Have you been successful in getting them to understand?  If so, how did you do it?

I know part of this is my deep personal issue of not understanding how my life could have been so significantly affected and changed by my NPD family and my brother's essentially not at all.  I can't help but feeling a bit resentful that he has had nothing but good luck and good breaks in his life and I continue to struggle with crippling depression and sadness and grief and unworthiness.  I guess what I would really wish for is some acknowledgement from him, some empathy or compassion, some recognition, that yes, you were hurt by them and did affect your life and it's not fair.

On some of my other posts, I was talking about these stupid, little things that happen that point to the selfishness of my NPD mom and her total disinterest in me.  Today, I had another reminder.  I went shopping with her today and we're in the department store.  I accompany her to all the areas she wants to shop in, offer suggestions, follow her around and then I say I wanted to look for something in this one department.  She just goes her own way and refuses to accompany me.  In other words, once she got what she wanted, she had no use and no willingess to accommodate me in even this smallest of requests.  I vacillated between wanting to scream and wanting to cry.

And so it goes.

[gratitude28]

(((((((((((((((((((sun))))))))))))))))))))))

I think the main priority in your life is to start figuring out how you can move out and get away from your selfish NMother. You won't be able to fully heal until you can be away from her. In your other post, you wrote about how your parents' behavior feels like a punch in the stomach... it will forever. I am far away from my parents and they can still do that to me at times. But for the most part I am able to separate from them and be happy with my own wonderful family. Sun, your siblings may not want to see the truth. I know my sister certainly does not - for a variety of reasons. I wish I could open my dad's eyes... but, if he doesn't know it already, I fear it might hurt him. Sun, we are a lot alike and I want to write to you more. I am very glad you are here. Please keep posting. No idea or question you have here is small or insignificant.

Love, Beth

[Ami]

Dear Sun.
  My heart so goes out to you. I can hear my yearnings and hopes in your post. I have gone through several months of coming out of denial. I hear that you so desperately want to be loved and understood.
  You wonder HOW your brother could have turned out good and you not.
  Sometimes ,one family member can hold the family's pain. I think that they are called the "identified Patient". The WHOLE family is "sick," but one can manifest  the family sickness more than others., Sometimes ,one person is scapegoated. That may have been you.
  Honestly, I hear the kind of hope that I had before I came out of denial. I think that it is a "false" hope..
  It hit me,"How many years have I been hoping that my M would be "normal"?How many yearnings have I had that my M and I would go out to eat and shopping like "normal people"without getting in to HUGE fights about nothing.
  My life from age 14 on had ONE goal-- to make my mother love me and "turn good.".
  As I came out of denial, I saw more and more clearly that she has a PD(Personality Disorder). Someone with a PD does not just"turn good".
  If there were anything that a person could do to make someone love them,I did it for her. ALL my decisions were for her to finally make us become a  loving Mother and Daughter.
  I think that I came out of denial last week.( maybe there still is more)
    I see that she is "lost" to being 'normal". She can't. It is like she is an 'alien". She is really not part of the "human" race. She does not have human "reactions like empathy.
 Sun, Your emotional issues are just deep pain(IMO).As you face the deep pain with the light of truth, I think that you will start  healing. It is not hopeless, even though it feels as though  it is at times.   Keep Sharing and telling your story as much as you need to. Love   Ami


IMO---is 'In my opinion

   

[sun blue]

Thank you both for posting.  I do indeed think we share a number of similarities.

Deep down, I know there is no hope for either my mom or dad.  But I guess I still hold out hope that maybe, just maybe, my "healthy" brother who emerged good and happy and unscathed could acknowledge what has happened instead of attributing it all to me and my "depression".  I've always tried to get him to understand that a child just doesn't pop out of the womb with clinical depression.  My codependent dad and NPD mom conveniently attribute my depression to the short but devastating relationship I had with this sick, NPD guy.  But of course that's not true.  My depression probably led me into that relationship, but the fact is I have been depressed since a very young child.  Of course, they would never want to acknowledge that lest they be forced to accept some responsibility.  My brother tends to think in black and white terms and thinks, if you are depressed, just take meds, try more meds or ECT or whatever procedures are out there, and all will be well.  

I have to say one other factor is that I never had any real friends and still don't.  So when I do have to move, I won't have anyone , even to talk to.  Growing up, my parents were very "secretive".  They both were estranged from their own siblings so we never had contact with aunts, uncles or cousins.  They certainly never cultivated or valued their own friendships.  They refused allow us kids to bring friends to the house.  They didn't want them around lest they make too much noise for the neighbors or spill something on the precious sofa or something.  Consequently, all we had were the five members of our household.  Of those five, two are seriously NPD, one is a serious co-dependent, one is healthy (brother) who disappeared with his own friends and now own family and me.  So a very lonely existence.

So giving up hope totally means reconciling to literally having no one.  That is hard for me.  Even though I know realistically that right now I only have an extremely superficial and non-relationship with my parents.  Still, being alone day in and day out is very hard.  I've been there before.  No matter what I try, there just never seems to be anyone in my life.

Thus, yes, I do struggle with the issue of me believing my brother turned out good and I turned out a failure.  It's hard to refute.

So thanks for listening.  THANK YOU so much.  It is good to hear other people have experienced the same.

[teartracks]

Hi sun blue

Warm greetings,

Oldest child of Nmom.  Nsister the youngest.  Seemingly unscathed brother is middle child.  He just glides over 'the stuff'.   He leaves those who wish to to make an ass out of themselves to do exactly that as often as they wish. 

I find with my brother that he is able to and will enter my reality, and understand my frustrations  if I remind him ahead of time thats what I need.  Otherwise he treats me a bit as he would a chattering child.  He is a good person, but sometimes, I have to explain what I need from him.

tt

[sun blue]

Thanks all for posting.  Some very good things to think about, especially focusing on myself.

My brother, although extraordinarily loving and empathetic with his own wife and child, doesn't seem to grasp the importance of doing so with me.  I have explained to him how important empathy is to me.  His response once was, "What good will that do?"  In other words, unless it leads to some concrete action (like overcoming depression, finding a job, moving out, etc.) he just doesn't understand the importance of spending time just listening, empathizing or offering compassion. 

Earlier this summer, I was feeling particularly low and lonely and depressed.  For awhile now, my brother has not really had much time for me.  Oh, from time to time, he'll ask me to accompany him and his family to some event or invite me to their family holiday celebration, but never where he's initiating contact or time just between he and I.  I always feel like a tagalong.  I know that if I decline one of his invitations to accompany him and his family, they will go anyway so I'm just an afterthought.  Now, let me be very clear and say that I do really appreciate these offers when they come.  But invariably, I am always the one extending the invitation or asking for his time, just with him.  When I told him this summer that when I needed from him was a little time, maybe an evening out once in a while just with him, he said he really didn't have time.  But obviously, he has time for everyone else in his life---his own family, in-laws, friends.  I know that if he had to choose between spending a Saturday afternoon accomplishing some chores around the house and going to a movie with me, he'd choose the former every time.  (He can't ever sit still and always has to be doing something).  At any rate, this just made me feel more abandoned, more lonely and more unworthy.  I felt like no member of my family ever made me a priority.

So I guess that is why I would still love for him to "see", to understand, to validate.  My brother is a very good person.  I just think he has not had any significant negative experiences in his life and so tends to disregard mine.  He has never felt the rejection or loss I have.  He has had very good luck in his life.  I have had nothing but bad luck. 

Oh well.  It sits in my gut like a huge stone.  It makes me sad and lonely because in every case, I know that I need and want these other people and it is never reciprocated.  I am always the one with the most to lose because I am the one who needs more.

Thanks for listening and sharing and posting.  All your comments aren stories are really inspiring and helpful.

[axa]

I think people get it when they get it......... all the explaining in the world will not open their eyes to NPD.  I think only those who have been wounded by the systematic abuse of an N really gets it, guess this is why this board is so busy.

axa

[JanetLG]

Sun,

Reading through your posts here, it sounds like you are describing my brother. He APPEARS to be happy, he has a 'relationship' that APPEARS normal, he 'has to stay busy' ...

But I think, deep down, perhaps he's not as content as he gives the impression he is? As Authentic says, he has to want to understand. If you've explained how you feel (which by the way, shouldn't be open to interpretation by anyone else - it's YOUR truth), then he has to accept that. If he chooses to not see your pain, he has chosen to. I can understand the feeling that you need to be understood by SOMEONE in your FOO, amd you're right, he does SOUND like he'd be the likeliest one, at first glance (he's not got NPD, and he's not a co-dependent). Or is he? By 'always being out' when you were growing up, and always being 'busy' with his family now, he is encouraging the situation to stay the same. This might be because if you got the strength to change how your parents and Nsibling treat you (better), then HE might become the target instead. And he's seen what that does to people (i.e you)!

It is a very hard thing to face, I know. I think I was almost MORE upset by my brother cutting off contact with me, than the rest of the family, 13 years ago when I started NC with my NMum and NSister. I hadn't argued with him - my NMum just told him 'either you side with her, or meee!' Not much choice, really, for a spineless fence-sitter.

I suspect the situation is similar to yours, and I'm so sorry you've got to deal with it. I never saw my brother again. It part of the fall-out of dealing with the N's in your life, and it's very difficult. But your brother has to live with his decision, as does mine, and I have a sneaking suspicion that they are not quite so 'comfortable' with it as they might make out.

I don't have any answers, I'm afraid, but just thought I'd share my experience with you.

Janet

[Ami]

Dear Sun,
  I was just thinking about my aunt-- M's sister. I started up a relationship with her after many years. I don't think that she really wants to face the truth about her sister having NPD. It is a horrible truth.
She knows that her sister is not "right"( great old euphemistic term). However, I think that if I told her all the gory details about NPD, she would not want to be close to me.
  It is HORRIBLE enough that WE have tp face it. We have to b/c we are forced to or we will "die"( emotionally, at least). Other people simply may not want to or have to .
  I would not try to get your B to see what you do. I agree with S and Safe    about that. We understand .You have a whole new group of friends ,here                  Love Ami

[lighter]

What I'm talking about is to get others (family members, specifically) to recognize that NPD is alive and well and kickin' it in my family and, more importantly, has had a very detrimental effect on me. 

I don't have the same struggle with my FOO as you, so I can't really comment to that.

What I can say is..... that it wasn't healthy for me when I really really needed everyone to understand what was going on.

Once I moved past that, and was able to focus on what I could change and improve on..... I felt and functioned better.

I will say.... that I absolutely had to beat that subject to death... had to move through it.... before I could get past it.

[sun blue]

Thank you AUTHENTIC, Janet, Lighter, Ami, Sovereign, Axa, Teartracks and Gratitude!

So very good of you to respond.  I was kind of afraid to post at first because I didn't want to come off sounding like a whining, complaining, "whoa is me" kind of person when it comes to this. 

What most of your posts seem to be saying is that while I may view my brother's life as healthy, happy and positive, he may have issues he is just unwilling or unable to see right now that are a result of growing up in an NPD family.  I notice that when he calls me (like I'm an item on his weekly to-do list), he asks me "What are you doing?" as opposed to "How are you feeling?"

If I tell him I've feeling sad, hurt or depressed over the fact that my parents spend all their time with my NPD sister, he's just like, "Well, there's nothing to be done about it.  You just have to accept it and move on."  Of course, that's the truth.  But I always tell him, "How does that help me deal with or overcome these feelings?"  Perhaps it's because my brother is a "guy" and men, as a rule, don't deal with with emotions.

I do see that he is a tremendous parent to his daughter.  He adores and cherishes her and loves her.  His life really revolves around her and his wife, as well they should.  He cares about how she feels, her self-esteem, confidence, etc, all the things you should.  He lets me in his life but only on a limited basis, and on his terms (i.e. babysitting for my niece, holiday celebrations, a weekly or so phone conversation). 

But I guess I feel like I want a close relationship with him and he doesn't really NEED one with me.  He needs that with his wife and child but not with me.  Maybe it does have something with the NPD issues.   God knows my NPD mom is so controlling. 

And, since my NPD sister disowned him and his family 11 years ago and my NPD mom sided with my sister, my NPD mom blames the demise of our family on my brother.  Why?  Because he had no business selecting someone other than my NPD sister as Godmother of his child.  I mean how dared he, right?  While I wasn't asked specifically to choose, because my NPD mom and co-dependent dad "chose", I had no choice.  I didn't so much choose my brother over them, I truly felt what my sister did was wrong.  While I tried staying in the middle, my NPD sister wouldn't allow it since she would no longer to even be in the same room with my brother for holidays and such.

Perhaps my bro isn't able to deal with the emotion of some of these issues.  He's good at the logical, step-taking process.  But I feel more than anyone in my family, right or wrong.  I certainly empathize much, much more than anyone.  I guess I always look for just a little of that to be reciprocated.

Thanks for all your comments.  It is really good to hear about your relationships with your siblings since there doesn't seem to be much discussion on that when focusing on NPD.  I especially thought Authentic's story about her son missing his sister was so sweet and revealing.

THank you for hearing me!

[lighter]

I also wanted to say......

that my brother could hear me, in reference to NON FOO N issue.... only when I stepped back and spoke to him without any emotional content.

When I was upbeat and sounded happy and 'beyond' everything.... he was all ears, very eager, in fact to talk to me about it.

He even stated my case for me..... which told me he knew exactly what was going: /

He couldn't hear me when I was finger pointing at past cruelties or explaining my injuries.... fears..... he just couldn't hear me in that tone.

Once I didn't blame.... once I was talking about what I was doing and sounding healthy and happy and truly past the trouble.... the change was amazing.

This reminds me of the old saying....

'insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different outcome.'

Well.... ya.

[Bella_French]

Dear Sun,

I can understand why you would want more contact and emotional intimacy with your brother (he sounds like a really nice person), but I just wanted to say that I think you are so lucky to have so much contact and brotherly involvement in your life. He must care about you a great deal (and its easy to see why, as you come across as really lovely person). I am very close to some of my siblings, especially one of my sisters, but now that children and spouses have come into the picture, we talk only once every few months or so on the phone, and only see each other a few times a year. But it feels like enough to us. Our conversations are long and deep, but we have our partners to take care of us and nurture our feelings.  I have 3 brothers (one is a half brother who I adore), and I am lucky if I see them once a year.

So from where I sit, the two of you have an amazing level of involvement with one another. I think any more than that would potentially cause conflicts between his wife's needs and your own, not to mention his daughter's. I think its natural for people to put most of their energy into their spouse, children, and work, because its just so hard to give more than that without being pulled in all directions.

I think the kind of role you are hoping for your brother to fulfill really belongs to a partner or husband. You need someone who is emotionally connected, present, and  loyal to you and does not have to put the needs of others above your own, like your brother does. I really hope you can find the right man for you, Sun. You deserve all the things you want from your brother, but he's probably not the person to give them to you.

X Bella

[sun blue]

Wow!  Thanks for your thoughtful comments.  You have no idea how good it is for someone to really "hear" me when I talk about these things.

Authentic, I think you are right about the two types of children of Ns.  I have suffered from serious depression and PTSD all my life and certainly have had nothing but bad luck and bad breaks in my life.  My brother, on the other hand, has not.  As a child, he was lucky enough to find and have a group of good friends so he'd be out of the house as much as he could.  I never did find any real friends and, to make matters worse, I was abused by my NPD sister while my brother was her own personal sidekick who she took under her wing and tried to monopolize.  In adulthood, my brother was again fortunate to find a really nice woman to marry and to have a child with.  He is an amazing parent.  But I think he truly does not "need" a relationship with me, his sister and the only remaining member of his biological family who isn't either NPD or co-dependent. 

But I have to admit I'm always amazing to hear people say they only see their sibling once or twice a year.  For me, it would be terrible to do that.  I know someone who barely sees her brother once a year with few phone calls in between.  I dont understand how that can be okay with a person you've spent your entire childhood with and who you are biologically linked to.  So, even if I had had the opportunity for a boyfriend or husband who cared about me, I would still want to see my brother on a regular basis and spend time with.  I don't say every week or anything but spending time once a month or so does not seem unreasonable to me.  So, to me, it's another rejection.  But I understand both your points.  It's just that it strikes me as another loss.

That's why I was amazed to read Belle's comment that she believes I have a deep involvement with my brother because to me, it doesn't seem deep at all.  To me deep would be initiating efforts to spend time with me (just me and my sibling not me tagging along with him and his family where I am always just an afterthought).  But I had a therapist once who told me she agreed with Belle's view of adult sibling relationships.  You know, it's funny.  Therapists are always looking for "breakthroughs" from patients.  But for me, each of these so-called "breakthroughs" just brought more pain, loss and hopelessness.  To me, that's no breakthrough.


I've also found that as I learn more and more about NPD, I become less and less able to tolerate a lack of empathy and compassion in people.  I've always felt immense empathy for others and just can't understand why it's never reciprocated.


Thanks again for weighing in on the sibling issue.  It is an extremely important one for me but I realize that sometimes I am in the true minority because most others have relationships with spouses, boyfriends, children and friends that I just don't have.

So thanks again!  So kind of you!

[Bella_French]

Dear sun blue,

Perhaps the level of  closeness between family members is different for everyone? I think the level of closeness I have with my siblings is normal for my family, country, and culture; it feels right for us although we are very close, but that doesn't mean that this is right for you or that there is any universal answer.

Nonetheless, it seems that your brother's needs and your own are in conflict. From what you are saying, he likes to keep the relationship light, somewhat distant, and he avoids really engaging with your feelings. Sun blue, there could be so many reasons for this: his role within the NPD dynamic (to protect the illusion), it could be that he is guy, or lacks the natural capacity for intimacy; it could be that he doesn't know how to handle your depression, or that he deals with it using strong boundaries??

I didn't mean to make you feel more alone, Sun blue and I am sorry if thats how my words made you feel. You are not alone;  depression is an illness which has a way of interfering with our relationships, sadly. I feel that you will find things easier as you heal.

hugs,
X bella