The Line

[Certain Hope]

More about BOUNDARIES...

CROSSING THE LINE

You may become entangled in boundary issues in two ways.

One is trespassing - when someone intrudes on your space without invitation. The other is enmeshment - the failure to honor the psychological autonomy of another.

Although having your boundaries trespassed is disturbing, it's a problem that's easily recognized - and, with goodwill, can be negotiated. People may try to bully or intimidate you, but your willingness to stand up and fight for your space will prevent further abuse. This can happen at work or in relationships, especially divorce.

Far more treacherous and confusing is enmeshment - an inappropriate merging of identities. It can take many forms: Your spouse tells you what to think; your sister-in-law shares inappropriate details about her sex life; your mother corrects the way you speak to your children - in front of the kids; your best friend tells you whom you should date; your coworker asks you to "help" with her work, but she's really asking you to do it for her; your boss calls you at home to ask you to do the task he has neglected. In each instance, if you can't maintain your boundary, you acquiesce and are pulled into someone else's drama.

Enmeshment is prevalent in our culture. The concept became popular when psychologist Salvador Minuchin discussed it in Psychosomatic Families (Harvard University Press, 1978), a book he coauthored for use in family therapy. The term applies in so many situations because we tend to replicate the family dynamics of our childhood in most of our adult interactions.

Enmeshment gets even more complicated if you become codependent, either by inappropriately involving others in getting your needs met or by acting inappropriately to fulfill others' needs, thus robbing them of their independence. Because codependency is so widespread, many people are equally, mutually enmeshed - a situation that can be very difficult to change.

Russell and his ex-wife are a good example. Their feelings of love were driven away because they began treating each other as an extension of themselves. Unfortunately, intimate love is often misunderstood as a merger without boundaries. This phenomenon helps explain why you might divorce one person only to marry someone else who is very similar. Either this new spouse maintains better boundaries and the relationship works, or you recreate the same enmeshment patterns in your new marriage and it may eventually fail. Love is not sharing everything, but sharing what fosters growth and wonderment.
Love honors boundaries through restraint and avoiding "dumping" on the other person or acting out.

http://www.lifebalance.org/articles/2005-05_06.shtml

[Jodi Kay]

Thank You for this Post C.....It is helping me understand alot......I must admit, I never really felt a need to place boundaries in relationships...It was something that I felt was just understood between 2 people.....I have relationships that need no boundaries...we just have a mutual respect and understanding of each other and our needs....I have come to the realization that some boundaries are HEALTHY and NEEDED.....Thank you for sharing

[lighter]

Thanks for this thread, Hope.

Certainly spoke to me.

[Certain Hope]

You're both welcome.

Here's some more...  http://www.coping.org/relations/boundar/letgob.htm

 Exercise your rights by identifying boundaries for your relationships

You next need to exercise your rights to set up your boundaries. This is essentially to say "NO" to those hooks which keep you boundary-less. You also need to identify what boundaries you want to set up so that you do not lose yourself in your relationships. To help you exercise your rights, here are some boundaries you need to establish if your relationships are be healthy:

 

Boundaries Needed in Healthy Relationships

1. You need to put limits on your time in relationships

2. You need to put limits on the money you spend in your relationships

3. You need to set limits on your external resources in your relationships

4. You need to set limits on your internal resources in your relationships

You will need to set limits on how much of your talents, skills and abilities or internal resources you are willing to expend on your relationships. You need to be clear with your partners how much of your internal resources you are willing to share or give away to establish or maintain the relationships. You need to be clear with yourself that your skills and abilities are commodities which others pay for (be it on the job or in the market place) and that you do not have to give them away for free just to keep partners in relationships. You are not required to give and give in relationships of your talents, skills and abilities without expecting something substantial in return. You need to set limits on how much you will give before you will stop giving of yourself.   


5. You need to set limits on your emotions in your relationships

You will need to set limits on how much you will emotionally invest in your relationships. You will need to recognize the emotional hooks which keep you stuck in your relationships. You will need to set limits on how "hooked" you will allow yourself to become. You will need to set time limits on how long you will allow a hook to go on in relationships. You will need to develop a sense of emotional detachment so as not to get hooked and drowned in an unhealthy enmeshment in relationships. You will need to develop emotional limits so that you will be able to figure out where you begin and end and where your relationship partners begin and end.

Learn to say "NO" over and over again until it becomes a habit and you feel no more guilt after saying it.

[Certain Hope]

Is it enmeshment when board members start having synchronized hot flashes?

besee

LOL      Oh, dear Besee... you rascal. Wanna dip your toes into my bucket of icewater? I'll share! 

Love,
Carolyn

[Bella_French]

Dear Hope,

I really love reading your posts, and especially these ones about boundaries.

What I have found in my own life, is that enmeshment is more likely to occur between non-equals, and setting boundaries is always much harder on the person with the lesser power  (such as the child , the employee, the home-maker) than the person with greater power (the parent, the boss, the provider).

If it is true that enmeshed relationships are widespeard in our society, I would attribute it to issues such as the fact that we are rarely truly independent of others, and people in power can be very abusive of that power. Setting boundaries with people has sometimes been useful for me, but I have come a lot further by avoiding abusive people altogether, and striving for independence . And yet, i still seem to do most of the housework, lol:)

X Bella
 

[Certain Hope]

Carolyn,  sure, especially since I know your plumbing is intact, these ice cubes are dripping besee

hehe... dear Besee,

I am just catchin up on the board. I dunno whether Reader's Digest would really pay for that ole N line, but I'm very happy to say that it is just dawning on me - I feel nothing any more about his remark. At first, the idiocy of it startled me, and then - as I realized that I really was only an object to him - it hurt, and I stored it away.
Now... oh, how healing to remember with nothing but a "so what?!".
It's truly meaningless now because I know that he did not do this to me... that the nature/nurture combo of non-existent boundaries and lack of identity was well in place when he came along to make hay out of it. In the greater scheme of things, he got about a half-bale... and now, life goes on 

Dear Bella,

Thank you!
I understand what you're saying... particularly if you were concerned with people-pleasing, which it seems maybe you were? I surely was... and it's tough to enforce limits.
But for most of my own life, I never felt anything but "less than" others. ALL others, including my own children.
In positions where I should have had the "greater power" because of my own role, I was still unable to set boundaries... even in parenting.

This began with first daughter, who is my direct opposite in personality... very demanding and insistent... very "in your face". She bowled me over regularly and I was always very intimidated by her.
With my 3 milder-mannered children, I was so caught up in not being like my own mother that I often gave in when I shouldn't, never knowing where to draw that line, and so being very inconsistent. Often my "No!" would only come out once I'd been wheedled and coaxed beyond frustration. It was not good. I guess I was always in the child role... with everyone... even when I was the provider, the single parent. When I look back at all those years, it feels like that was someone else. I do alot less cowering these days, but still - when hateful abuse is flying willy nilly through the air, I'd prefer to find my own little cave.
Still, I don't think that residual fear is much of a motivator anymore. Basically, I see absolutely no good thing coming out of any interaction with angry, abusive people, so I will avoid them altogether, as well. Who needs it? Some people feel ill at the sight of blood... and I feel sick at the sight of rage. I can accept that.

Doing most of the housework is another matter entirely... lol. Not sure I wanna accept that!! 

Love,
Carolyn

[Bella_French]

Dear Carolyn,

 I can only imagine how difficult it is to teach children to have respect. Hugs to you..raising your daughter sounds like it was so challenging and heartbreaking at times. I'm sure you did your very best with her though. I think she was lucky to have you as her  Mum..you're so thoughtful and insightful, not to mention naturally nurturing and so caring.

Carolyn, My attempts to get better at asserting boundaries started 10 years ago (a long time ago!), and at some stage I worked through the part where I felt `undeserving'. I agree with you, that this is a major hurdle; it was definitely a very difficult stage for me too.

 Once I got to the next point, where I actually saw myself as an equal who deserved respect from other people, other challenges arose along the lines of picking the wrong situations to assert myself (because of power imbalances), and facing harsh penalties than caused me considerable harm with far reaching effects. I have learned that an important part of asserting boundaries is picking the right fights.

I have come to believe that in the mind of an aggressor or someone who doesn't respect you, setting a `boundary' is like an act of war. I call it `war'  because it threatens their agenda, and also threatens their perceptions (that you are not worthy of respect). People seem to take great offense to being challenged on these two fronts, and will usually retaliate with  escalated aggression unless their position of power is lesser than your own. I've seen this dynamic time and time again, and it makes my heart feel sick thinking about it.

When I cannot avoid dealing with someone who obviously has an agenda that is disrespectful and abusive to me, I actually find that verbally asserting a boundary to be a pretty defunct way of handling the situation. All it does is tell the person that you're on to them, and gives them an opportunity to become more aggressive and cunning.

I find it better to deal with such people in other ways (depending on the situation). Knowing someone's agenda who thinks they are hiding it is sometimes a more powerful position. For example, sometimes we have to do the hard work of earning someone's respect, rather than demanding it, if that makes sense. And if that cannot be accomplished (because the person is disrespectful by nature), I find it better to avoid the person or `side-step' their attempts to manipulate me. A lot of this stuff relates more to the workplace than a family situation, I know, but this is where I've had the most practice with boundaries.

I hope some of this makes sense, in any case.

X Bella

[Certain Hope]

((((((((Bella)))))))) Thank you. I wish that I had known who I was when my children were little... but I guess they saw me better than I saw myself. My eldest daughter has been a whirlwind in my life for 25 years... yes, challenging always, and often heartbreaking... and now she has a little girl of her own, so, I guess she is learning. My other children have always been quite respectful, and not out of fear, I know, so... that makes me feel better about all those unknown years. It is still so disconcerting to feel like I was not really there for so much of my life.

I know what you mean about those power imbalances. Till recently, I've only ever drawn the line out of sheer desperation, and that with the very most N'ish people, which always means the very harshest of consequences. I'm so sorry that you endured such harm and far-reaching effects and I hope that you're free from all that now.

And I definitely understand the potential retaliation involved with threatening a disrespectful person's agenda. In general, I'd prefer to let them dig their own hole rather than engage in fruitless posturing and line-drawing, but... you know, some people just won't rest till they've drawn you into their maze. The same way we send out "kick me" signals when our boundaries are weak or nonexistent, I think we emit other signals, of challenge, to those who want to be the alpha in a particular setting. Honestly, it seems like just breathing can make you a threat to one of those. They're not satisfied till they've wiped you out. That makes my heart feel sick.

You make good sense to me, Bella & I thank you for taking the time to talk with me. Alot of this stuff seems to sort itself out in time... so maybe it's patience that's called for, I dunno. It's those who are disrespectful by nature that I'd like to get identified straight-away, so that I can plan alternate routes for the rest of my days. I want to live in peace.

Love,
Carolyn

[Bella_French]

Dear Carolyn,

I have the same attitude; it seems we've both shared one heart ache too many. I am sorry to hear what you went through. Its so nice that you share this learning with others, in hope to prevent others from going through what you have.

Love to you

X bella

[Certain Hope]

Thank you, Bella... and love to you, too.

I like this little definition from Dr. Irene, who writes:

http://www.drirene.com/owning.htm

"My husband made me do this page.
He tied me to the computer and would not let up for air until I finished. Well, not quite.

One night, he said to me, "I hate jargon. What does it mean that you "own" your stuff. So what! You admit that you do (something) I don't like. Does that give you permission to continue doing it?" Actually...yes, though I never needed permission!

Here is an explanation for the psychologically unsophisticated, a population to which my husband (thankfully) belongs:

"Owning your stuff," "taking responsibility" both mean the same thing: that you are fully aware that whatever behavior you engage in is a choice you have actively made. Nobody makes you do anything. The consequences of your actions are yours alone. Nobody has to like or dislike your choices. You are the author of your life. You need no approval or permission.
(Just remember, you have to live with the consequences!)"

[Certain Hope]

More from Dr. Irene...  http://www.drirene.com/boundari.htm

Boundaries distinguish each individual's "territory," the place where personal responsibility begins and ends.
The self is the the only area over which an individual has any control. Angry people and codependent people both have weak boundaries.
They do not control themselves. This is unfortunate. Loss of boundaries, loss of control, loss of choice, loss of freedom, loss of self...are a package deal.

You are personally responsible for everything inside the boundaries that define "me" from "not me." Everything!
You are responsible for your feelings, your values, your behavior, your thoughts, choices, insights, beliefs, limits - everything! That is fortunate.
Why wouldn't you want to have control? Would you trust someone else to raise your children? To choose your wardrobe, your furnishings, or your mate? To run your business, your home, or your marriage?

Because you set the limits, you are personally responsible for protecting yourself.
Your duty to yourself and to your Maker is to take care of yourself and not allow others to trespass.
This includes cultivating your ability to say "no," to others even if your actions disappoint them or hurt them.
The good news is that since you are responsible for yourself, other adults are responsible for themselves. Always!
They have to deal with your limits.
You have to deal with theirs.
People have a real hard time with this concept.

Common Boundary Questions

 Isn't it my responsibility to make my partner happy?
 Isn't it selfish to set limits with others?
 How can I set limits and still be a "good" person?
 Why do I feel guilty when I try to set limits?
 Sometimes I know what's best for my partner. Isn't it my job to care for them?

Lets take them in order:

Isn't it my responsibility to make my partner happy?

No. Not only isn't it your responsibility to "make" another happy (or miserable, or anything else), but you simply can't do it. You don't have that kind of power. (Unless, of course, your partner gives it to you.)

Go out of your way to treat your partner well! Knock yourself out...do all sorts of wonderful things! However, despite what you do, you are only responsible for your own feelings. Your duty to yourself is to be aware of your own motivation and expectations, your delivery, how you feel, and everything else about your actions. Your partner's reaction to you is your partner's responsibility.
Even if they try to pin their reaction on your actions, their reaction is their responsibility. Period. End of story.
For example, a verbally abusive husband who spends much of his time trying to create a safe environment for himself by controlling his wife (and treating her poorly in the process) is not responsible for his wife's feelings. She is. She lets him violate her boundaries. Now the pair can continue their mutual boundary violation ad nauseum: he can blame her for his woes and she can guilt him for hers. And on and on the story goes...

In reality however, the abusive husband ultimately answers only to himself and to his Maker. The usual price is the loss of self, the loss of inner peace, symptoms, etc. The wife, who discounts her feelings and makes excuses for her husband's mis-behaviors, is also responsible to herself and her Maker.
She pays much the same price for selling out.

With or without self-awareness, each person has chosen to put themselves in the position they are in. When the angry husband is mad that his "ungrateful" wife did not react to his kind efforts as per his expectations, that is his problem. If his wife allows him to make it her problems, that is her problem.
This co-dependent relationship style really complicates matters. According to these assumptions, the couple might seek marital counseling so the wife can learn to be appreciative of her husband's kind acts. There is an assumption that there is something wrong with her for being unappreciative.

Each person is obligated to live up to their partner's expectations - for their partner's emotional well being??

This is analogous to Jean asking Paul to do her laundry and Paul asking Jean to do his. Paul has to remember that her pure cottons never go in the dryer and get lightly starched. Jean has to remember that Paul's dress slacks only get dry cleaned. Will she get mad if he missed a pure cotton? Will she think he messed it up on purpose? Did he? Does she get back at him by throwing a silk tie into the washer? Yuk, yuk, yuk!  Does this make any sense?
Wouldn't it be much easier if each person simply did their own laundry?

Isn't it selfish to set limits?

No, no, no. In fact, it is destructive not to set limits. Who will take care of you if you don't? Who knows more about what you need, or don't need, than you do? It is unfortunate that the word "selfish" has such a bad connotation. Perhaps we need to think in terms of "selfcaring." Then we may more appropriately ask, "Isn't it self caring to set limits?" You bet!

How can I set limits and still be a "good" person?

How can you not? By the way, what is a "good" person? (The word I prefer is "integrity.") How do you feel when you've been sooo good, that you  have been taken advantage of? Do you hide your angry, resentful feelings, smile and pretend - often even to yourself - that all is OK?
Or, do you let your anger out on the next poor soul who crosses your path?
How can you possibly feel good about yourself if you carry so much luggage?

Why do I feel guilty when I try to set limits?

 Because you are well-trained to believe that it is your responsibility not to disappoint others, to please, protect, "make" them like you, etc.
There are cognitive techniques that can effectively help stamp out irrational guilt.

Not all guilt is irrational. Each situation needs to be examined. What is the individual's underlying motivation? An example is the jealous, insecure husband who did not want his pretty wife attracting male attention in his flashy convertible. He "set limits" on her use of his car despite his not needing it and despite her responsible driving record. Since he was trying to control, he has every reason to feel guilty (assuming Mr. Ego would ever admit it).

Sometimes I know what's best for my partner. Isn't it my job to care for them?

Absolutely not! Care about your partner; do not care for them.
Big difference!
They have the right to make their own choices, including choices that you believe are wrong.
You may state your opinion once, even twice. Then you need to drop it. Stop trying to control them, fix them, guide them.
Spend your energy controlling yourself, including learning to tolerate your partner's choices.
You don't have to agree with your partner's position. You do have to respect it.

******************************************************************
Roger's Rotten Boundaries

Controlling Roger was dating Stephanie, a codependent lady who was crazy about him. One of Roger's numerous and ever increasing complaints about her had to do with her hairstyle. Roger found it dull. Eager to please, Stephanie let Roger choose a new cut and color for her. Stephanie's hair was more important to Roger than it was to Stephanie - since Roger saw Stephanie as a reflection of himself. One day Roger took Stephanie to a function where she met many of his friends. Although Stephanie was lovely and well-coiffed, Roger felt embarrassed that she was not more beautiful, stylish, outgoing and social.
Roger thought Stephanie made him look bad! He felt diminished in his friend's eyes and angry at Stephanie. 

Here is where Roger's boundaries failed:  He does not like Stephanie's reserved style - and wants to change it.
(He's allowed not to like it and even let her know that.
Nevertheless, Stephanie's style is Stephanie's business despite her active participation in making it Roger's business.)
 He makes a host of unfounded assumptions he places on himself and others. (Irrational thinking, Rog.)
 He feels better about himself when he thinks his friends are impressed. (Who cares what they think! Roger, what do you think?)


Roger would serve himself better by concerning himself with his own issues.  Specifically what bothers him in his relationship with Stephanie?
(Guaranteed it has little to do with hair and personal style.)
 What is his motivation in dating Stephanie? 
 What are his thoughts and feelings? 
 Is he in control of their expression?

Later, Roger began recognizing some stuff:

That Stephanie was not right for him - and why she was not.
Although Roger knew it all along, he did not trust his feelings and could not put them in perspective.
He confused himself, mixing up legitimate inner impulses with defensive inconsequentials (such as her hair), and giving all equal weight!

He is slowly recognizing that what really bothered him about Stephanie was her lack of boundaries, i.e., her inability to recognize her limits and stick to them - no matter what (as in "True to thyne own self"). He simply didn't trust her. And, his mistrust was not unfounded. How could he trust an individual who sells out?
Despite her best intentions, her position on any given issue may change anytime!
There is little basis for emotional trust, despite the fact that she is a trustworthy individual.

As Roger's boundaries firm up, he can begin to remove blame he puts on himself - blame that does not belong to him.
Specifically, he can dump his notion that there is something wrong with him for being unable to love a great gal (she is) who (still) adores him.
Yes, there is "something wrong," but it is not what he thought, and its not all about him.
Roger continues to work on self-awareness and self-control. He's much better at self-acceptance these days. No longer needing to kick himself as much as he used to for having thoughts and feelings he hates (he can own his negative stuff!), he opened the door to his inner-self. As his inner impulses become more and more accessible, he can begin to know. 

Trust really resides in the self...
As you take charge of yourself, you no longer rely on others for emotional "trustability."
It doesn't matter what anyone tries to dump on you. You simply don't take it. 
As your boundaries develop, other people's boundaries no longer matter...[/b]

and Amen.

[changing]

CH-

Wow- that was so well illustrated. The example truly tied the concepts together. Fabulous information. The sad thing is , in the scenario depicted in your post, one can go on reassuring the "upset" or "offended" person who irrationally  "needs" you to change your hair as proof of their greatness and power, or your caring, or whatever, in order to make them feel better about themselves , until one becomes completely bald from the haircuts, and in the end you are blamed for not having any more hair!
The Ns are never sated.
Thank you Certain Hope.

Love,

Changing

[Certain Hope]

Exactly, Changing.

It is absolutely never enough and it's never, ever right for N!
The entire motivation of her life is to get others jumping through endless, impossible hoops.
I have never realized so clearly the need for impeccable boundaries, to keep these bottomless pits masquerading as human beings from draining me dry.
When appropriate boundaries and avoidance alone don't back down the abuser... well, that's what I'm exploring now. Then what?

Carolyn

CH-

Wow- that was so well illustrated. The example truly tied the concepts together. Fabulous information. The sad thing is , in the scenario depicted in your post, one can go on reassuring the "upset" or "offended" person who irrationally  "needs" you to change your hair as proof of their greatness and power, or your caring, or whatever, in order to make them feel better about themselves , until one becomes completely bald from the haircuts, and in the end you are blamed for not having any more hair!
The Ns are never sated.
Thank you Certain Hope.

Love,

Changing

[Poppy Seed]

About your last post from Irene.....

OUCH! OUCH! OUCH!  This is me.  That realization sucks!  I feel guilty or intense pain when I set boundaries.  It has literally kept me in prison in the past. I feel like I am constantly choosing between them or me.  I won't give into these feelings anymore, though.  I kind of feel the yuck and set the boundary anyway trusting that some day I will feel differently.  And I LOVE LOVE LOVE the feeling of self that emerges.  Frankly, I am not sure what to do with all the flack from everybody in my life who doesn't like it.  It seems that even the most quiet boundary drives people away.  So, I watch myself explain or negotiate or try to reason with the other person.  I must be surrounded by people who really don't care about me.  Because the more I stand up, the more I hear that they don't want to hear me or I say how something makes me feel, I am labeled "highly offended" or "mean".  I feel like I don't matter.  It SO surprises me and unearths me because I try to be honest and kind at the same time.  I think I have been taking care of these people for so long and maybe they are just using me to feel good.???.  Maybe I just need to wipe the slate clean and get new people.  But that is painful.  No more parents.  No more in laws.  No more best friend.  Again.  OUCH! 

Poppy