Wrongly Shaped Conscience And Voicelessness. Are They Related & How?

[Certain Hope]

Very well said, CB... I agree completely.

Interesting topic, tt... thanks!

Carolyn

[teartracks]

Dear CB,

Thank you so much for what you wrote.  I'll be reading it a few times for it to soak into my befuddled brain.

When I start threads here they seem to come from three distinct places .  1)  I think I have something figured out and I want feedback from other members to back up what I think may be the answer or 2)  I feel compelled to state my thinking on something concerning the board or 3)  I've stumbled on something that I just can't dope out.  This thread is definitely the latter.

As I posted on the Artist's Way thread (my last post there) , I think I have reached a pivotal point in my recovery/discovery/renewal.  There's something about the question I'm asking here that makes me think it may be the turning on a dime for me to reenter the jungle (except now the jungle, FOO dysfunction has been demystified, doesn't make me fearful) from whence I came, where I'll walk the same path except in the opposite direction  and see things from the other side of the forest so to speak.  I don't know if the 'other side' is meant to give me a broader personal warm fuzzy perspective of the incredibly hard last seven years or if it is to allow me to see things from the perspective of my abuser.  Either or both is OK with me.  I just want to continue my journey in a productive way, a way that is not wrought with fear and pure affliction.   I want the ME that I had to search so hard to find to shine.   CB, I think I may be in a similar place as you were when you jumped on board here when you were in the throes of divorcing your XN.  I'm at the moving on stage.  Changing scenery stage.  The freedom stage.

Please don't apologize for posting more.  I needed to hear every word you wrote and anything else you and others can offer.

The subject of conscience is such a complex one that I didn't know exactly how to ask the question to keep it on track and in context along the lines of voicelessness from parental influence.  Let me try again.  On the board, there seems to be a strong consensus (I agree with the consensus) that parents have the power to give or take a child's voice.  That the parent can overlay the child's mind with a veneer lifted from themselves rather than simply guiding and nurturing the unique, original mind God gave the child.  Then I got to thinking that perhaps the two, conscience and voicelessness might be the same or minimally entertwined.  This whole question has my mind in a twist right now.

This has lodged itself in my mind.  Do you or anyone have any thoughts on it?

tt
 
   

[Bella_French]

Dear CB,

 I really enjoyed reading your observations as a mother.  I had a truck load of empathy as a child; I can't remember when it started though, or if it was `taught'. Your posts give me a lot to think about, CB. Thank you.

I have read a lot about `empathy' over the years, and another school of thought is that `empaths' exist as children, and are often targeted by abusive parents to psychologically cater to them because of their `gift'.

I'm not really sure where my own views sit exactly, but both views resonate with me in different ways.

X Bella

[Bella_French]

Right now, this whole question is a jumble in my mind.

Do you think a child comes pre-wired with empathy?  Or is it a combination of genetic and environment?
I agree that empathy is foundational.

I grew up with Nmom and a highly spiritual dad.  I think a large part of my question revolves around trying to figure out how and to what degree they as individuals influenced the shaping of my conscience.  My dad taught us morals inspired by his spiritual beliefs and a conviction that following a high moral code would make us better people.  Nmom taught no morals.   With her it was more of a Morals de jour situation.  When I think of it this way, it is as if my conscience was influenced by my dad.  My voicelessness was the legacy of Nmom.   It seems that voicelessness is a disease of the emotions more than a disease of the conscience.  What do you think?


Dear Teartracks,

I agree with you on this; it makes a lot of sense. Do you sometimes think it would have been so nice just to have been raised by your Dad? That way you could have been taught the `good' things , without feeling the pressure and confusion of using your `goodness'  just to cater to your mother. This exploitative dynamic kind of sullies things. Its makes empathy feel like a weakness, not a strength too.

I will read your latest post now, and see if I can get a sense of what your realy asking with all this.

love to you

X Bella

[Bella_French]

Then I got to thinking that perhaps the two, conscience and voicelessness might be the same or minimally entertwined.  This whole question has my mind in a twist right now.

This has lodged itself in my mind.  Do you or anyone have any thoughts on it?

Dear TT,

I think understand what you are asking; are you wondering if `conscience' is a product of voicelessness, or kind of proportional to it somehow?

I think I can answer that with a confident `no', and its because I think our actions related to voiclessness are conditioned responses, in the Pavlovian sense. Thats is : `behavior A=reward, behaviour B=punishment'. In a way, these responses lack authenticity, because they do not reflect our inner reality. They are `forced' behaviours.

Empathy, which I believe is the root of conscience, is perhaps best looked at in two separate ways: there is `empathetic behaviour' which I believe is what CB is talking about, and I agree that this is something that would probably need to be taught.

But there is also `empathy, the experience' which is something intrinsic that is with us from birth. It is our ability to `internalise' another's feelings, and it does not necessarily result in empathetic behavior.

This, I believe, is the mechanism by which babies internalise their mother's emotions, wrongly blame themselves, resulting in anything from a sense of being responsible for other's feelings in adulthood,  to completely shutting off from empathy (resulting in NPD or psychopathy).

I believe that Empathy, `the experience' is what guides our conscience, and Empathy `the behavior' is something we can be taught or conditioned to do, but does not necessarily reflect our true feelings.

X Bella





 

X Bella

[Iphi]

I didn't learn empathy or spirituality from either parent.  I came that way.  I have a long, detailed memory going back to about age 2 and this is definitely the way it was.  After it rained I used to pick up worms off the drying sidewalk and put them back in the grass to please god.  Nobody taught me that.  Also I used to go outside to go 'see god.'  I'd be all excited about it.  The first time I went to church I was disappointed because I expected to get really up close and personal with god at god's house but it was all these grownups staring at some guy down in front.    I was very mystical and felt really close to the creator all the time.  My parents used to laugh about it.  Yo, they should have been paying attention. 

In my mind, my conscience is connected with not being really embarrassed of my life, after I die.

Now voicelessness - and self censoring, that has to do with the part of me that interacts with the world and other people.  That's where the real work is.  My .02.

[Bella_French]

That is so cute, Iphi. I love the idea of you being cute little girl, rescuing the worms from drowning, and saying hello to God:)

X Bella

[sun blue]

Hmmmm....read the comments about empathy with much interest.  Empathy is VERY, VERY important to me.  Probably because I never got any.

But the question is, if empathy is not an inherited trait, but rather a learned one, how can it be that when growing up in a N household with other siblings, one sibling can be extremely empathetic and the others not?

Why are we, the victims of narcissists, so empathetic towards others and so cognizant of empathy and its importance even though we grew up in a family where empathy wasn't taught or rewarded?

Empathy is a topic I have addressed at length in counseling at well.  I stressed to my counselor my need for empathy for others, including him.  He was not capable of giving it to me and I have never really experienced it from anyone in my life even though I know I am a very empathetic person.  In fact, I often can physically and emotionally feel the other person's pain.  I want to take that pain away or find ways to help them.

So how to explain this difference in empathy levels in N families?

[Certain Hope]

Oh, Iphi... that's how I felt as a little girl about the outdoors and all the critters... like they were closer to God than people... especially adults.

I think that must be the leftovers from being originally created in God's image... so that even though sin tarnished the perfect picture, there are still those remnants in folks... especially in little ones.
The way I understand this life, we're spiritual creatures trying to manage in these earthly tents... for a season.
Anyhow, being amongst animals and taking care of them has always felt so rewarding to me. I don't know whether that's empathy, though....just... a more basic communion with creation as close as possible to the way God intended it to be.

[Bella_French]

But the question is, if empathy is not an inherited trait, but rather a learned one, how can it be that when growing up in a N household with other siblings, one sibling can be extremely empathetic and the others not?

Why are we, the victims of narcissists, so empathetic towards others and so cognizant of empathy and its importance even though we grew up in a family where empathy wasn't taught or rewarded?

Dear sunblue,

I agree; empathy is with us from birth, and it can nurtured or suppressed. To what extent, I do not know, but I agree that different children in the same family have a different capacity for it. In my family, that was certainly the case. I was rescuing animals at the same age some other siblings were torturing them for fun. This was definitely not taught.

In our family empathy WAS rewarded, but only when shown to the N-parent. I think this is what Teartracks was getting at with her questions; I feel that she is wondering if this `rewarding' process causes conscience?

X Bella

[axa]

very interesting thoughts.

I think part of my empathy was shaped by a strong desire to NOT be like my N mother. I responded so well to people who were empathic to me so I wanted to be like them.  I also think as victims we identify with other victims, they allow us feel our pain in another way.  My youth was spent reading books about victim survival, the holocaust etc.  Somewhere I decided that by being "empathic" or should I say being "helpful" I would in turn receive empathy, not necessirly true so I got involved in rescuing, controlling (which I perceived as helping).  This set me up as perfect Nbait and of course the abuse I had received as a child continued throughout my life, thus rendering me voiceless.  It's funny to describe myself as voiceless as I am a real talker but that is what I have been VOICELESS, unable to say what I want, who I am to myself rather than to the world.  I think this is the kernel of voicelessness, not knowing who we really are.  In some ways shaped like the N except rather than become heartless and cold I became the bleeding heart.  Why one way rather than the other?  Maybe somewhere along the line I was lucky and felt some level of love from someone and spent my life seeking it out. Maybe the difference is that Ns never even got this much and gave up on empathy and decided power was the way to go.

A thought just struck me maybe Ns have felt the same level of voicelessness........... are we the other side of the same coin?

Yesterday I remembered something and felt ashamed about it.  Years ago, when I was married, my xfather in law lived in pretty poor conditions.  When he was away one weekend my xH (not an N) and I cleaned his bedroom, painted it, made new curtains etc.  I thought he would be so happy with it.  He came home and was annoyed that we had done this and not having decorated his bedroom for about 20 years went and painted over what I had done with a disgusting colour.  I see now that I had no right to do this without his permission.  My intention was good but I was interfering, controlling etc.  Needless to say I was angry with what he did, nothing matched AGAIN but heck it was his bedroom and his house and I had no right to do what I did no matter how well intentioned I was.  Of course I went into the cycle of nothing I do is good enough, he did not see how helpful I was trying to be etc but I was crossing boundaries which were not my business.  Strange I thought of this after all those years.  Wish I could apologise to him, I really did not understand.  He is dead now but hope he knows I am sorry for interfering with is life.

A contrite Axa


Axa

[gratitude28]

Guilt, guilt, guilt....

I think since I was EXPECTED to be always doing something annoying or rotten, I felt guilt no matter WHAT I was doing. I fully believe that this is what my parents instilled in me. Here is one example I vaguely remember (sometimes I am not sure it is a memory, but how would I make this up????)

I was little - 3 or 4... I had a brush in my hand. I must have had a guilty look on my face, because my mother started asking if I had used the brush on the dog. I hadn't, but she insisted I did until I cried and (I am not sure) even decided just to admit it.

She loves the story that at 5 I did something wrong and "punished myself" by hiding in my room.

I lived in constant fear of doing something wrong. And throughout high school, and college, I always felt I was doing the wrong thing - no matter what it was.

I think, tt, it's from never having any clear rules. When the rules change daily, it is hard to follow them.

Rough subject. I have been looking at it and not ready to put this to paper, as it were.

Love, Beth

[Ami]

Dear Beth,
  I am glad that you wrote about this. We have to share what hurts us in order to heal. It is part of the "medicine" of healing.
  I get the sense(I  could  be wrong) that you feel ashamed of this incident. WE take on their  shame so  effortlessly.
  Janet always says to me,"It was HER fault-- not yours". I am seeing that truth-- very slowly. When you were treated badly as a kid, HOW could it "really" be your fault (if you think about it).
  We take  it on so effortlessly( and still do).
 That is why I am not taking my M's pain for her anymore. She will  have to be honest IF she wants a relationship with me( as my F chose to be). Honest means we can TELL who is the bully ,here- HER.
  I am glad that you shared  this. What a precious, sweet girl you were, Beth                Love  Ami,

[gratitude28]

Ami,
Thank you for that response. Yes, I take on their shame. And I often feel shame for people when they don't... Do you ever get that feeling of wishing you could cover for someone when they do something hideous??? I don't feel it as much anymore, but I did for so long.
(((((Ami)))))))))
Love, Beth

[Ami]

Dear Beth,
  Not letting other people" sit" with their own painful emotions is part of our sickness. I used to be able to feel someone else's discomfort( when I was younger) and know that it was theirs and NOT mine.
  Then as I got sicker,I was afraid of "bad" emotions.  I think that I had to "eat them" like Pac Man.(I have stomach problems ,too)
 I was the voracious eater of bad emotions so other people would not have them.
  I don't know HOW my relationship with my M( where I had to absorb her abnormalities) transferred itself to other people--but it did.
  I think that I am very afraid of any "bad" emotion such as anger, fear, shame or guilt.I just "eat them up" so they won't harm me ,I guess.
 I think that it is a "selfish" response based on fear of me getting hurt-- somehow if I don't  take them away.
 I think it has something to do with not being able to protect myself when "emotions" go "bad" anywhere. I scoop them up so they won't hurt me. It is something like that ,I think. Somehow,it has to do with preserving myself. I am not sure completely, though.    Love    Ami
 (((((((((((((((((((Beth))))))))))))))))))))))))