Shame

[Ami]

The only thing that is true and 100% workable (IMO) is the Bible. The Bible says ,"You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free."
  Being "free' means being rid of pain, fears, bitterness,insecurity, worry  rejection  etc. So, there has to be some part of this Scripture that you are unknowingly violating or you would be free.
  The "Truth" includes all truths in life. It is the truth about God, ourselves, our past,.our present and life in general.
   I guess that is the one tool that I have in my "bag of tricks" ---- and Dat's it                    Ami                   
 

[Poppy Seed]

Lighter,

I much prefer the Zen approach..... acceptance of the bad, for there would be no good things without it.

Absolutely.  I believe this.  Always have.  Tried endless days to convince my H that both the good and the bad live together.

I try to invite better things and get on better paths.

 YES!  This is part of my new work!

Poppy.... do you ever have wonderful days when you're so happy to be alive you can't beleive you'll ever feel bad again?


No.  Sadly.  Not yet.  I don't know what those days are like.  I hunger and thirst and wonder if it is sitting right in front of me and I am blind so I can't see it. 

What would your life look like if you cared for yourself with the same diligence and presense of mind that you care for your H and children?


I can tell you what I say ...... and then what my shame says.  Two different things.  Mostly, it is a process of learning HOW to do this in building ways. Thought I was doing that before.  Boy was I wrong!!   Taking care of myself like my babies.  vs. "taking care" of a criminal.

pops

[Poppy Seed]

Ami,

You know I thought I had answered that question when I started this thread.  Why can't I find the happy?  Because I think in patterns and prisons of shame.  So, I am trying to undo it.  To unthink it.

Hmmmmm........

Maybe we are all saying parts of the same thing.  Pieces.....vital pieces to a bigger picture.  Some ideas cross over and some are just out of reach for us.

Boy, this thread is giving me a work out.  I think I am sweating.... 

[Bella_French]

I'm all for getting past and beyond..... I don't want to spend any more time feeling sad or sinking into hopelessness either.

Don't want to.  ::shrug::

I may have to.... and that's just the way it is. 

I much prefer the Zen approach..... acceptance of the bad, for there would be no good things without it.

I'm sometimes amazed at bad things in my life.... wow..... this is my path, who would have seen that coming?

I wonder what will come next.

 I don't dread.

I try to invite better things and get on better paths.

But...... there's still that tap tap tapping on my shoulder at times.

No denying it.... it's there, though it comes and it goes.

I'm keenly aware of the decisions I make at those times..... not blathering into the phone to anyone who'll answer just to feel better in the moment.... but calmly considering uplifting options I could instead choose to persue then persuing one. 

That's the goal anyway, lol.

Whether it's cleaning out a drawer, getting bills paid or researching something I have to figure out..... it's better than letting the ghosts drive me into familiar self defeating patterns that do me no good.

Then there's the regret, shame and recovering from that too.  I need that like a hole in the head so.... mindful mindful mindful.... keeping goals in mind.  Starting the day out with a review of my goals.  Focus.  Nurture.  Stop to smell the posies...... be mindful and present when I can.


I guess we begin to recognize when we feel off or alone or victimized and turn our energy toward something else by sheer force of will, when it comes right down to it?

Maybe that starts to become habit after a while.... recognizing the feelings and choosing to go against the familiar patterns and urges that used to drive us..... and building something better in spite of it?

Maybe that's all we hope for?

Maybe we have to teach someone else the lessons, before we actuallly get it?

Maybe I'll keep evolving but..... I'm so tired of growing.... so tired too.

Poppy.... do you ever have wonderful days when you're so happy to be alive you can't beleive you'll ever feel bad again?

I do. I can usually trace them directly to healthy patterns and behaviors I take the time to gift to myself.

Diligence pays off big in this area, for me. 

I really enjoyed these words Lighter; they resonate with me.

I don't know if some pain can be undone, some of the deeper stuff, anyway. Revisiting it feels more like stubbing my toe over and over, expecting it to heal. I think thats the crux of why I no longer do it.

I prefer rethinking, over revisiting. For me, shame is is a `thought', behind a feeling. Thats why the positive thinking and positve reframing works better for me I guess.

X Bella

[Poppy Seed]

Thanks Bella. I really appreciate your thoughts

 I like the positve reframing and replacing.   Not the stubbing frustration  that it won't heal.  It feels patient and kind to me. 

 I can only do what I can do today.  Maybe tomorrow I will be able to do more.  And today, I feel I need to recognize the voice of shame in my head and actively try to change that.  This feels sufficient for today.

Thanks for all your labors in trying to understand my brain.

Love Pops

Ps.  I still might start the journal thing again. I can see how that could be helpful.  Even if I just recorded my progress....my daily struggles....and my blessings.

[lighter]

I can tell you what I say ...... and then what my shame says.  Two different things.  Mostly, it is a process of learning HOW to do this in building ways. Thought I was doing that before.  Boy was I wrong!!   Taking care of myself like my babies.  vs. "taking care" of a criminal.

pops

Wow.... when you put it like that.... it really draws perspective to how our attitudes and beliefs shape our lives.

I know what it feels like to always assume I'm the one who did something wrong or needs to change or isn't OK enough..... good enough.....

To have people scapegoat me as an ongoing habit I never could wrap my mind around or even question properly for so long...... and then it was ingrained by the time I stepped back to examine what was going on.

I didn't question sooner bc I'm a decent human being willing to explore the possibility that I'm flawed and can improve.... I was burdened and confused by the gaslights: / 

It's beyond my scope to understand why people would do things that make no possible sense and cut their own throats so they can ride us into the dirt like a beach donkey.   (still love that one, Axa: )

Let's make a pact, Poppy.....

lets assume....

even if we just pretend.....

that we're good, healthy, worthy and deserving of the same care and kindness (we easily give to our children....) then we go about mindfully treating ourselves like sacred children.

OK!  One more lovely ritual to add to our bonfire ceremony for Cat Paw's Ruby Slipper boot adornments! 

This will be a special night indeed!

Everyone will stand before the fire and receive a ruby token of the power that resides within them, talisman.

I think I want mine to be a sparkley ruby forehead glitter triangle.... ummmm.... and I'll start painting my face with cool pink, brown and red design, just bc.... and the red sparkle will be jewel in my face paint

Triangles have power in the universe, ya know; )

[lighter]

  Bella: 

I hope we can work through the majority of our issues with positive works and mindful care of our selves.




Ami... you wrote:

The only thing that is true and 100% workable (IMO) is the Bible. The Bible says ,"You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free."
  Being "free' means being rid of pain, fears, bitterness,insecurity, worry  rejection  etc. So, there has to be some part of this Scripture that you are unknowingly violating or you would be free.
  The "Truth" includes all truths in life. It is the truth about God, ourselves, our past,.our present and life in general.
   I guess that is the one tool that I have in my "bag of tricks" ---- and Dat's it                    Ami                   
 

The bible also says I shouldn't eat shellfish, touch dead pigs or be homosexual. 

::whispering:: 

Abominations don'tcha know?



 I also condemn slavery, oppression of women, refuse to stone the woman not a virgin when she marries and would certainly protect a child from being killed by his parents should he make the deadly mistake of cursing them


Ya... ::Nodding head::

ya...

it's true.

::hanging head in shame:: 

I'm one radical little iconoclast, I know.....

[Ami]

Dear Lighter,
  Th Bible is too big of a topic to get in to a ""discussion""   about.                                   Ami

[lighter]

Dear Lighter,
  Th Bible is too big of a topic to get in to a ""discussion""   about.                                   Ami

I wasn't angling for a discussion.... this is Poppy's thread on SHAME.

I thought you might want to[i]reconsider your precentages, all things considered.

[Ami]

Let's get back to the topic of shame.

[Certain Hope]

I guess my determination out weighs my fears.

Yes, it seems to, Pops   We human beings were created for dependence and fellowship... just gotta be sure we don't get those two paradigms confused or directed toward the wrong "other", imo. In making a list of expectations - i.e., what do I expect from myself? from God? from others? - alot of chaff blows away in the breezes of maturity.

Carolyn

[Poppy Seed]

I know what it feels like to always assume I'm the one who did something wrong or needs to change or isn't OK enough..... good enough.....

To have people scapegoat me as an ongoing habit I never could wrap my mind around or even question properly for so long...... and then it was ingrained by the time I stepped back to examine what was going on.

I didn't question sooner bc I'm a decent human being willing to explore the possibility that I'm flawed and can improve.... I was burdened and confused by the gaslights: / 

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!....and one more Yes! just because.

This is my year of learning to question properly......being willing to break through the shame and confusion.  I don't suppose I am done with this journey.  But I no longer see myself as the "problem".  Although, that string gets pulled quite easily and I have to deliberately refuse to listen.

[lighter]

I know what it feels like to always assume I'm the one who did something wrong or needs to change or isn't OK enough..... good enough.....

To have people scapegoat me as an ongoing habit I never could wrap my mind around or even question properly for so long...... and then it was ingrained by the time I stepped back to examine what was going on.

I didn't question sooner bc I'm a decent human being willing to explore the possibility that I'm flawed and can improve.... I was burdened and confused by the gaslights: / 

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!....and one more Yes! just because.

This is my year of learning to question properly......being willing to break through the shame and confusion.  I don't suppose I am done with this journey.  But I no longer see myself as the "problem".  Although, that string gets pulled quite easily and I have to deliberately refuse to listen.

SO..... now we're dealing with the essense?

Is this it?

How to feel entitled to examine OTHER PEOPLE's Motives and actions......

How to express our rightful view and disagree with them, esp when they're finger pointing and gaslighting....

How to disagree in the right way, to the right degree for the right reasons without feeling guilty or torn or tormented

How to sustain a boundary after we set it..... esp with people who make it their life's work to trample boundaries, win, dominate and subjugate everyone in their lives bc it feels good to do so!!!!


I just don't have that much energy.....

sleep kitty kat here, remember?; )

When I think of DOING the above...... I hear circus music playing in my life's background

[Poppy Seed]

This is the whole point of starting this thread I think.....although I don't think I saw it until I read something and posted something to Lupita.  Then it became crystal clear.  I love myself.  Right?  I think I am fine.  N's were threatened by me so they tactically tried to shut me down.  I thought I needed to improve myself.  I ended up shutting myself down.  Yuck.  Realized my mistake.  Tried setting boundaries.  All HELL broke loose.  And is still flying around the barnyard....two conversations of calm boundary setiing and one letter.   And here we are in world war 3!  Anyway, I set the boundary and then I feel guilt, shame, self doubt, torn, tormented.  THis is my big question!  Why do I do that and how the heck do I stop???? This is my week spot.  I am doing good with boundary setting.....just not the maintaining firmly against the storm.  The attacks and the rejection of my family pull all my old wounds out  and pick them like a banjo!
 
Thank you for seeing it and saying it.  It does feel like a circus act. BUT,  I refuse to spin plates on sticks!!  I don't care what my IL's do.....liar liar pants on fire!  Ok, I do care.....but I am caring less and less!!  I am more concerned about getting this blasted habit of shame out of my head.

Then the wind could blow, and people could spit in my face and I would KNOW that I could handle it. Or at least know the difference between their stuff and mine.


Thanks for all your thinking and thoughts, Lighter.

but.....what is "sleep kitty kat here????????"

[lighter]

I guess we have to figure out how to handle and overcome the increased emotional terrorism following any attempt we make at setting healthy boundaries, lol?

An increase in terrorism we couldn't handle in teh first place so we start drawing assertive little lines in the sand.

The N's go right to world war III bc that's what they do.... and we're cringing under the firepower.


Man that just sucks. 

Our attempt to protect ourselves is treated like an act of aggression..::.shaking head::

It's more than difficult if we, or our spouses and children, are dependant on the ones we're trying to set and sustain bounadries with.

They have lots to bargain with and they don't think twice about sacraficing anything and everything to get their selfish irrational needs met.

Makes no sense....::shrug::

That doesn't help us figure it out. 

I think it was Mud who said that 'trying to figure out something that makes no sense, is a waste of time."

Something similar to that. 

So..... we can set a boundarie then run for cover!

We can speak a truth then run for cover!

Then what?

We're harrassed, accused of doing exactly what they're doing, punished, denied and called selfish and crazy....

guilted, shamed..... manipulated into feeling pity, the absolute worst!

We can control our own thoughts and actions...... reactions, but not how others will guide their behavior.

We make discoveries, try to resolve some of the conflicts causing us pain, then get hit with quadruple the chaos in reaction to our boundarie setting, lol. 

I;d like to think that most people recieve support and care from their FOO's.  Not sure at this point

How crazy is it when the people who're supposed to be guiding and protecting us are subjugating, scapegoating, controlling and dominating us for shits and giggles?

DOES NOT COMPUTE!!!

SO they accuse us of EVERYTHING they're doing and more and we're back to feeling the things that people who actually committed those offenses SHOULD feel!

And the nauseating confusion.....

We keep doubting ourselves bc we're good people.

How do we break that cycle?

Teacher speaking to class:

"Today, class... we practice our new mantra.....

First....

insert fingers in ears, thusly......

Then,

 repeat after me.....

la la la la la la la la la la la la!"

A vision of myself holding a cross and chanting some version of holy words just came to mind

I guess as long as the N's have something they can successfully bargain with (read that as hold over our heads and emotionally terrorise us with....) we're in a bind?

We can't expect them to change..... so what can we change?

Our expectations.  CHECK

We can stop internalizing their words.  CHECK, maybe.... sometimes, lol.  It comes and goes!

Our own reactions to their words.

I don't think we can do that successfully while we're dependant on them for anything. 

There is no resolution, in that case bc they tirelessly dog us into submission, bc they can.  It's what they do.

Because we allow it?

They up the aggression until we cry uncle or run away, screaming like our hair's on fire.

Who can take that kind of sustained manipulation and remain steady?

I can't.

 I've tried and I shut down too.

Or I'm patient for just so long then.... BOOM!

So......

Are we asking the wrong questions?

Should we be asking ourselves why in the world would we try to sustain relationships like that?

Is that what 'normal' people do, without thinking about it?

Is the fact that we're willing to waste vast amounts of our limited time and energy the problem?

Is that the reason why we can't find happy?

Right now..... I feel like trying to have a relationship with N's is like standing there with a cross and jabbering excorsism rites at someone who can't possibly be freed from their demons

How do we find serenity facing that?  Being pulled and pushed and batted around unless we submit and give up our voices again?

Or... at the very least, pretend along with them while believing some entirely different reality.....  I guess humoring them (like their idiot savants) and living like we're the only adults in a room full of toddlers?

Do we parent them?

I'm just not that strong..... I don't have enough energy to parent abusive destructive adults who dwell in a position of trust in my life....

 or....

let me rephrase that....

dwell in a position a trustworthy person WOULD occupy in a heathy person's life!!

Is it us?

Are we truly missing the point here?

SHOULD we be giving up, getting over it and moving on...... but we're not?

Are we just making the noises people make BEFORE they get it together and truly give up hope and really really move on? 

I don't know but I'm self medicating with food right now and can't stop to save my life: /

 Are we trapped bc we allow ourselves to be?

Are we creating the trap ourselves?

Is the trap in our own minds?

Do we have the power to exist with the N's and not be afffected negatively?

Could a Tibetan Monk handle it?

A Tibetan Monk wouldn't ever find himself in this postion, hmph. 

Is it as simple as the AA slogan.....

replace replace replace?

::sigh::

And finally..... do we, like other addicts, have to hit rock bottom before we've had enough and finally grasp the depth of what we're dealing with?

Is that what this all comes to?

I must admit.... I'm not thinking with complete clarity today. 

I may come back and argue opposite points tomorrow

As of right now..... I see trying to sustain healthy relationships, with people who do us harm, akin to beating our heads against the wall.

Trying to get them to understand what they're doing? 

Akin to beating our head, shoulders knees and toes against the wall: /

Trying to make sense of it all? 

Akin to beating all of the above against wall, then flipping ourselves backwards and dashing our heads on the pavement.

end rant