What to do, what to do?????

[Learning]

Hi Folks!

My mom sent me a short email today requesting to visit her grandchildren.  It was such a nice, simple email.  Nothing there to get upset about.  Should I let her come????  I don't want her here...but I do want her here.  I want a mother who really loves me to come and visit me and my kids.  Maybe I am wrong about her.  Maybe she is just a victim like me in all of this.  Maybe I can have a relationship with her.  Then voice #2 comes in...but what about how mad you have been at her???  Now I can't remember exactly why...all I can think is that her best friend in the whole world is my Nfather...and about him I have no doubt!  Is it possible for her to love me when she seems to care more for him than her offspring???  Oh she would deny that with a vengeance.  S**t, I hate this.  I wish I could just feel certain about what the heck I'm suppose to do.  I wish I just knew what really is or isn't?  

Crap, the tightness in my chest is returning.  I knew she would be back, but of course I still am not prepared.  

I hope you all understand my craziness and will not feel offended.  I just don't know where else to vent.

[Michelle]

Hi Learning!  

We never give up hope do we?  I went round and round with this at my counseling session yesterday.  She said the key to my freedom will be when I stop "admitting" the problems that my mom has and start "accepting" them as fact.  I am like you in a lot of ways.  When I get the smallest amount of "normalcy" or "kindness" from her I feel like that is a sign that things will get better.  The hurt, damaged, desperate kid in us is just waiting for things to get better.  They are just hoping and praying that one day we will wake up to a "good" mother.  

In my case this is not going to happen.  My mother has taken every effort I have given her and crapped on it.  Basically she has said, bottom line, "my way or the highway" in different words than those.  Well, I care about myself and PARTICULARLY my family (hubby, kids) too much to let that happen.  She has done nothing but hurt me over and over again.  The patterns are there right before my eyes - it is just time for me to admit them and see them for what they are - hopeless.  

I hope that things can be different for you, Learning.  I know it hurts and I know it SHOULD be different.  But I also know how conniving and manipulative these people can be.  So I pray that you will be realistic and not let your hopes get the best of you.  Stay strong for your children.  

I went back to a previous post by you and found this clip:

I moved 300 miles away from my parents in 1989. I did this to get away from all of the drama. Yet, every visit they have ever made my internal feelings have been the same. First I am elated that they are planning to come, I can't wait to share with them what is going on in my life. Then, about 5 days before their arrival, I begin to stress. My body is exhausted, my back is in knots and often I catch a cold. Once they are here, I am miserable. I don't even know if they are that negative towards me most of the time. But it doesn't matter, I still am a emotional wreck while they are here. I guess I am finally starting to realize that I am allowed to just accept my body signals as reason enough not to visit with them.

I found this interesting because in your post today you said

Crap, the tightness in my chest is returning.

Just an insight.  You need to make the best decision for you and your family.  If you make the wrong decision and get mad at yourself in hindsight, we will be here to support you.  We have all done just that.  

Take care of yourself and I will be sending you peaceful thoughts for wise decisions.

michelle

[Portia]

Hi Learning, look what a panic a simple email put you in. That isn't right is it? That doesn't feel good?

I control when and how I contact my mother. And that's okay. So - take her request and consider it calmly, take your time.

I bet it wasn't a simple email though, with my cynical mind. I bet there's some little manipulation in there! Want to share it?

Hey why would any of us be offended??? We're with you! We understand your panic, well I do for sure. I understand those conflicting thoughts - maybe she's okay 'really' maybe I've been wrong all along....because all the time I STILL want her to love me. It's okay, that's normal, it means you're human, hooray! And not crazy.

I would say your first obligation is to your children. Would they like her to visit, would they benefit? Answer that first, then ask if YOU would like it, would you benefit? Then consider your mother.

And if you decide yes, you also decide when, where and how long for...etc etc..maybe decide on an external thing, maybe amongst other people? Whatever you would feel most comfortable with. Or if no, well there's nothing wrong with the odd white lie here and there - we all get migraines, stomach upsets or even have too much too do - so put her off, you would like to but no, not right now.

What do you think? P

[Anonymous]

Hi Learning,

I have to admit that MY alarm bells went off when I read your note.  I'm glad Michelle "mirrored" your experience in her reply.  I thought, yeah, that's why the bells are going off!

Your hope and self-doubt are very, very familiar feelings.  My H calls me a "moth to the flame" when I start talking like this.  I went through this stage for a very long time, that is, hoping for change.  Ns use this hope.  They say anything to get what they want.  If you resist the line that worked before, they find a new one that works.  

I saw this when my enabling brother talked to me on behalf of his PSYCHO wife.  He pulled out the stops.  When one line didn't work, he pulled out another one and another one like index cards out of his pocket.  "Lessee here.  I gotta have one that will work..."  That conversation was the end.  We didn't argue.  I just finally saw what was going on for what it REALLY was and told him Good Luck, she wins, see you later.  I.e. find someone else to play with.  

Then I went on to mourning the loss of my relationship with my brother.  It was painful to realize I had him all wrong as well as his wife.  I was holding onto a fantasy.  But I am much happier now that I subtracted all that drama out of my life!  I can stop reacting to them and act on my own behalf for my goals.

Now, if you are ready, you have to find the strength to say NO.  If you don't have the strength yet, I support Portia's suggestion to meet at a place you can leave if things go awry (vs. asking her to leave your home.)  Maybe ask yourself which is harder: saying no or going through another visit.  It's okay to be "selfish" if it means protecting yourself.  This isn't your fault that you have to be so suspicious.  You would trust them if they were trustworthy.  But it is important to trust yourself.

One last thing.  Just because the Ns in your life haven't committed any crime recently doesn't mean the pattern of behavior has changed.  It just means that they haven't had the opportunity.  We can forgive the past, but that doesn't mean we have to give erring people more opportunities in the future to hurt us.  Snakes are not good or bad, they are snakes, doing what snakes do.  A rabbit finds it wise to keep some distance.  

Hope this helps.  Peace, Seeker

[Anonymous]

Learning,

It's natural to have a strong ambivalence about your mother. This doesn't mean you should cave in to one extreme or the other. Think about the realistic consequences of her visit, then make your decision. My feeling is, if you let her come, you must at all times be present when she is with the children; i.e., supervise her visit. There is a reason you are trying to protect your children from her. I don't know what the reason is, but I think you should keep doing it.

bunny

[write]

if you've decided there is to be no relationship, then ignore the email or reply with a firm no.

Remember- it's your life, they're your children, and you carry no responsibility towards an abusive mother.

If you do want to see her do it on neutral ground at a childrens' play place, maybe with the company of an understanding friend or your partner.

As someone said, acceptance is paramount- but accept your own ambivalence about it too.

[write]

this link is food for thought on that

http://www.rational.org.nz/public/BeliefsQuestionnaire/bel12.htm

[Dawning]

Hi Learning.  

Great advice from everyone.

Crap, the tightness in my chest is returning.

With self-awareness comes this: feelings do not lie.  Trust your feelings.    Has anyone else had a rough time of it getting in touch with your physical feelings, say, of dread?  I think I got used to mine for a long time - having been taught in childhood that they weren't important.  Over the past several months, I am letting them come up and recognizing that they are clues to what is really going on with my thinking about something.  I base more of my decisions these days on what my body is telling me.  I think intuition and feelings are linked in a really important way.  A realization for me.  

Can't add anything else.  Don't worry about sharing your craziness.  You don't sound crazy to me.  I completely understand.

[flanked]

I am new here and I have been up all night trying to find some answers to a current cache of problems involving more than one "N,"  a divorce and a child custody battle.  I have read several posts from you guys and I speak your language so well, I am spooked.  I am going to begin expressing my current crisis under a new topic and I would like for you to all read it and give me some feedback. PLEASE.
I will probably title it with the word "N- Divorce/Custody Battle" ...so look for it...and please forgive my spelling errors.

Thanks!

[Screamer]

Hi Learning!  

We never give up hope do we?  I went round and round with this at my counseling session yesterday.  She said the key to my freedom will be when I stop "admitting" the problems that my mom has and start "accepting" them as fact.  I

Michelle,

Your statement really hit home with me.  I do the same thing... the slightest little bit of kindness, and I think.... "maybe this can work."  Of course, it is just another trap.  

Still we never give up hope.  When I truly accept the reality of the situation, and stop floundering, I think I will find some level of peace.  The closer I get to it the more peaceful I feel.

[Learn]

Hi All-

I don't have much time, but I wanted to say "Thanks" to all of you for your great replies.  I have alot of thoughts about what you have said, I just don't have time right now to pen them.  I will come back soon to "talk"!

Learning

P.S. Michelle, a quick high-five for you regarding your returned card thread.

[Learn]

Hi Michelle,

Thank you for your reply!

She said the key to my freedom will be when I stop "admitting" the problems that my mom has and start "accepting" them as fact. I am like you in a lot of ways.

That statement sort of sums it up, doesn't it?  Up until a few years ago, I thought I had accepted my mother for what she is.  In my mind I knew she had problems (which I attribute to her own childhood), but I had thought that for the most part she was just ditsy (best word I can think of, don't know if I spelled it correctly).  I feel like I need to give an example.  Once, she called me and said something along the lines of "Hi. ummm...I just wanted to call and say Hi and well, ummm, the craziest thing has happened.  The only thing I smell is bitter almonds"  I realize now that she knew I would immediately step up and try to solve her problem for her.  I did...searching the internet for an answer...turned out she had a sinus infection.  She could have just gone to the doctor, but no...whe brought me into her drama.

Now, I have begun to see, what I believe to be a deeper sort of manipulation and I have even caught her in one lie.  I am wondering now if that is a pattern.  I mean, for sometime I have wondered about her perception of life events, but I never thought she would outright lie about something to make me feel bad.  But if she is an N, I guess it is the same thing.  I just don't really know if that is what I am dealing with here.

My mother has taken every effort I have given her and crapped on it

I am so sorry Michelle.  I have read through your return card thread.  I am sorry your mom has been so hurtful.  Sometimes I wonder how I got picked to be born to the people who are my parents.  Do you ever think that way?  I have expressed that to a few people and they usually respond that it must be because God thought I would be strong enough.  I am not so sure about that, but it is the best solace I have when I am feeling really bad about the whole thing.  I used to think it was my job to help them, I am now working on throwing that out the window.  Nothing helps them.

That is my mother saying that to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All those bad things that I hear in my head about myself are her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Way to go, Michelle!  "Don't let them define you", someone once said to me.  Find your voice and ignore hers!!!  I am working on that too!

Thanks for pointing out my body signals.  I have really started to believe in the mind/body/spirit connection.  Interestingly enough, my mother is the one who introduced me to that idea.  What complex relationships we have with our parents  .  I want to be around for a long time to enjoy my children and their children.  My health is very important to me.  The other interesting thing is that I can be in some fairly stressful situations (ie. emceeing a charity event, child in hospital) but they still don't affect me as much physically as a visit by my parents.   Hmmmm??

Bless you!
Learning

To Portia, Bunny, Seeker & Write--I am on borrowed time right now and I have thoughts about what you said, so I will respond as soon as I can.  Take Care!

[Michelle]

Hi Screamer -

When I truly accept the reality of the situation, and stop floundering, I think I will find some level of peace. The closer I get to it the more peaceful I feel.

Those are very wise and truthful words.  I like how you phrased that....think I will print it out for my fridge.  

Hi Learning -

Once, she called me and said something along the lines of "Hi. ummm...I just wanted to call and say Hi and well, ummm, the craziest thing has happened. The only thing I smell is bitter almonds" I realize now that she knew I would immediately step up and try to solve her problem for her. I did...searching the internet for an answer...turned out she had a sinus infection. She could have just gone to the doctor, but no...whe brought me into her drama.

Oh my gosh.  I am sorry but I laughed and laughed and laughed at that story.  It is so much like my mother.  Here's an example of her "drama"....one day she called me and when I answered the phone she immediately said, "well I have lupus are you happy".  I was confused and caught off guard and she said it again.  I said "why would I be happy that you have lupus? and how do you know you have lupus" and she said "because my joints ache".    Nuts.  Well, it turns out she has mild arthritis.  Am I a medical doctor?  No.  She, like your mother, likes to drag me into her sick little world.  Another quick funny story.  When I was a senior in high school I couldn't give blood b/c my iron count was a little low.  So of course she immediately diagnosed me with "anemia".  I didn't have it of course and ever since then when I tell her I'm not feeling well, she says "well you know your anemic".  My husband and I actually get hours of laughter out of this story just thinking about it.   I FEEL your pain, literally, learning.  

I appreciate your encouragement and concern over my returned card thread.  

Sometimes I wonder how I got picked to be born to the people who are my parents. Do you ever think that way? I have expressed that to a few people and they usually respond that it must be because God thought I would be strong enough. I am not so sure about that, but it is the best solace I have when I am feeling really bad about the whole thing. I used to think it was my job to help them, I am now working on throwing that out the window. Nothing helps them.

Lots of wisdom there on your part, Learning.  Yes, I often wonder "why me" where my family is concerned.  I agree about God though.  I am certain that he only gives me what I can handle.  However, I also feel that some of the things he gives me actually "increases" my capacity to handle things for the future.  Kind of hard to understand.  I have deep faith though - He is my only consistent source of stability and strength.  In a weird way, my religious beliefs have actually been part of what has kept me "chained" to my family.  My counselor is a christian counselor and she has shown me the error of my beliefs in those ways.  It has been eye-opening.

Good for you especially on working on changing your belief that it is your "job" to help them.  your right, nothing helps them.  And I need to hear that as much as you need to say it to yourself.  Thank you.

I also like your statement "Don't let them define you".  That's true and I am just learning about that.  Wow.  It's a weird and freeing realization!

I encourage you to continue to listen to your body.  I think it is always telling us something, we just choose to ignore it a lot of the time.  I am really learning to "cue" into my body signals, as you are.  

I am happy you are "learning" to take care of yourself.  Give yourself a big pat on the back and hug for me!

Michelle

[Learning]

Hi Portia!

Thanks for your post!

I control when and how I contact my mother. And that's okay. So - take her request and consider it calmly, take your time.

Great advice!  I have not replied to her yet, because I am still thinking about exactly what I want to do.  I have also been trying to get and keep control of contact with both my parents.  Mom knows mostly to email me because I don't answer the phone much.  Dad keeps trying the phone...ironically   he called the same day that she emailed and darn it I picked up.  (note to self...always plug caller id display back in after using computer ).

Ahhh, Portia, you must be able to read my mind.  I would love to find something really manipulative in her email to share with you all.  But, alas, not much to speak of...she did italics part of the message and not the other part (I can't make any sense out of that) and she did mention that she was going to a singing Fest this weekend (she sings in a choir).  It could be that she just needed to share that info with me...but really, many people might do that.

I think that with everything I have said to her in the last couple of years she tends to walk on eggshells around me.  I mean, she knows I will let her know if she is being inappropriate and she hates that.  Plus I hold two important trump cards...my daughters.  She tries so hard to be appropriate with me so that she can see them.  And you know what, that further fuels my anger towards her.  I'm not important enough to her, but they are?  That only makes sense to me in the context of her using them as narcissistic supply.  And then I think, no way, not my kids.  They don't deserve to be used that way.  I know all to well what it feels like to be objectified most my life.  

I guess that answers your question about my kids.  Yeah, they would like her to "play" with them, they love attention.  But I just don't feel good about what she is really doing and I worry that they can sense that too.   I also worry about they way she tries to find things to correct me about in my parenting.  If I say "no snacks" because they didn't eat their dinner, she tries to guilt me into changing my mind in front of my daughters.  She also sets no boundaries with the kids...and the children react by getting really wild and then me and my husband are tearing our hairs out.

Once when we were visiting her and staying at a nearby hotel, she met us for dinner at the hotel restaurant.  She had to sit right next to my oldest (who was 3 at the time).  I had brought some markers and paper to keep her busy so mom started to work with her.  In no time at all, my daughter was laughing loudly and writing on my mother's head with a marker (it was yellow and mom's hair was yellow, but still...).  My mom just sat there and let her do it and laughed.  I suggested that she tell my daughter to stop it, she refused to.  She wants my daughter to like her so much.  My daughter sensed the power struggle between mom and me and used it to her advantage.  (Absolutely normal on her part since she is 3.)  My daughter started to run around the restaurant (she normally listens alot better than that)...now mom jumped in and decided she should take her for a walk (she got her all to herself that way).  

I think I will use the old "this isn't a good time for a visit line".  And thanks for the support about the conflicting thoughts and everything else.  I feel such an inner struggle about all of this...about writing about it, about thinking about it, about the labels, about everything...yet I feel I must press on.  Does that make any sense to you?  Do you have similar feelings?

By the way, Portia, your name intrigues me.  Is it a given name?

Take Care!

[Anonymous]

But I just don't feel good about what she is really doing and I worry that they can sense that too.   I also worry about they way she tries to find things to correct me about in my parenting.  If I say "no snacks" because they didn't eat their dinner, she tries to guilt me into changing my mind in front of my daughters.  She also sets no boundaries with the kids...and the children react by getting really wild and then me and my husband are tearing our hairs out.

This sounds like typical permissive grandparent behavior. Pretty common for an N grandparent to undermine the parents' edicts and rules. I think the choices are to set strict limits with grandma, or to just avoid grandma. That is, unless she agrees sincerely to abide by your rules. If she doesn't, she's packed up and sent home instantly. The only thing she will understand is concrete consequences.

Once when we were visiting her and staying at a nearby hotel, she met us for dinner at the hotel restaurant.  She had to sit right next to my oldest (who was 3 at the time).

I think it's natural that she wants to sit next to her.

I had brought some markers and paper to keep her busy so mom started to work with her.  In no time at all, my daughter was laughing loudly and writing on my mother's head with a marker (it was yellow and mom's hair was yellow, but still...).  My mom just sat there and let her do it and laughed.

I think it's all right when a grandparent or relative is childlike and playful with the kids. I do things with my nieces and nephews that are immature and sometimes subversive.  But not to the point where I'm fomenting serious rebellion. I'm still supposed to be a role model.

There is nothing wrong with grandma wanting her grandchild all to herself for a while. But if she's doing it to GET AT YOU then there is something wrong with it.

Bottom line, you are the parent. If you think grandma is inappropriate; or even if you just don't like her, she doesn't get access to the kids. That's how it works. She doesn't have to like it.

bunny