Delusions? Unbelievable Story

[tayana]

Hops, today is 15 days of no contact with my mom.  I did talk to my father, but that doesn't really count.  He doesn't up set me quite as badly.

Bill, my mother is fond of stunts to get attention.  She's "attempted" suicide more than once, basically threatening, but not carrying through.  She just wants the attention.  So, I don't know how much she's really "cracking up" although a total fabrication like this is somewhat new.  I also agree that we, even as hurt as we are, are better off then them.  At least we want to recover.  They don't see that there's anything wrong.

Sun, I have often worried about M becoming an N, but I don't think he will.  He has a hard time controlling his emotions at times, but over all he's a pretty caring person.  He can be very empathic, especially with animals.  I think that's one of his "autistic traits."

Overcomer, my mother is fond of rewriting history as well.  Or else she totally misinterprets things.  You know I've been a druggie, cult member, prostitute, and all manner of other unpleasant things . . . at least according to her.  She has this idea that I was running around with men all the time when I was in school, so I guess when she made me come back home, she decided she'd watch me so close that I couldn't "run around."  Funny, isn't it?  She thinks I'm running around with all of these men, when it was the women she needed to worry about. 

Leah,  my anxiety levels have decreased dramatically with NC.  I've felt pretty low tonight, but not like I was a few weeks ago when I finally called the doctor because I wasn't coping well at all.  Physically, I've lost weight (a blessing because I really needed to), my gastro issues have dramatically declined so that I can just take over the counter medication now.  I just have to work on the emotional and psychological issues now.

I'm trying to be good to myself tonight.  I really am.  I don't feel very relaxed though, and I just want my kid to go to bed.  His room looks like something exploded, and he's been very trying all night.  He got very angry at me over a box, and we had to have a talk about feelings and how it's okay to be angry, but not okay to tell me he didn't want me to be his mother anymore.

[mudpuppy]

Hi Tayana,

 Your mom is not having some mental breakdown. You hit the nail on the head when you said the problem was you moved out. You're out of her control and she is attempting to restablish it or punishing anyone who might conceivably contact you while you continue to defy her. If you moved back in and said you were truly sorry for trying to prevent her from wrecking your life she would instantly revert to her more placid nuttiness.
 Seems to me your problem is not that you have NC but that you don't really have NC. Hearing about her rants and attempted manipulations second hand isn't a whole lot better than experiencing them first hand; she's still manipulating you, only through a third party. Maybe you could tell your brother (and your dad) they are welcome to contact you, but you don't want to hear about the old bat's latest flight of fantasy.

mud

[sunblue]

Bean:

I was wondering how you went about accepting and dealing with losing your other family members because they couldn't meet your request for boundaries?  It's one thing for NC with the Nmember which is hard enough, but at least you can see how much damage they cause with continued contact.  But it's another to lose the rest of your family.

I'm wondering how do you deal with that----having no real relationships with any member of your biological family?  I'm having a hard time with that right now.  My sister is N and I haven't had contact with her in a long time.  My Nmother and co-dependent dad devote their lives to the Nsister and have disengaged from myself and my "healthy" brother and now my brother for reasons of his own which I don't understand is distancing himself from my parents and me (I have to live with the parents right now for fnancial reasons).

So how did you handle not having any family?  Are you able to have any relationship with your siblings or dad...such as at holidays or special occasions?

Just wonderng.

[Ami]

Dear Bean,
  I am so impressed  with your story. How long did it take to feel the kind of peace that you do? Did you have to rewrite many,many tapes in your head?
  You sound like you "know" who you are and you are not defined by them any more?
   Are you an insecure or secure person ---do you think? I know that it sounds like a dumb questiona nd it probably is ,but I would be interested in your answer.
                                                                       Love    Ami

[tayana]

Mud, Bean, you're right.  I've been asking about my parents, and I shouldn't.  My brother generally doesn't volunteer information unless I ask for it, but I did ask and he told me about the imagined visit.

I have a hard time imagining life without my family, and I want to have a family so badly.  I used to dream that someday, I'd have one of those huge families like on TV where everyone was a little odd sometimes, but usually got along, and at the holidays there were huge celebrations of love and warmth.  It's never happened.

It's something I'll have to work on with my T, I suppose.  I feel a little like I'm being pulled in a thousand directions all at once, and I'm not sure where I want to go.  I don't feel strong enough to maintain my boundaries in the presence of my parents.

I think I can deal with a relationship with my brother, but not my parents. 

[mudpuppy]

I used to dream that someday, I'd have one of those huge families like on TV where everyone was a little odd sometimes, but usually got along, and at the holidays there were huge celebrations of love and warmth.

Blood relations are accidental and sometimes unfortunate.
Our real families are those who freely choose to love and respect us. If we look back we'll regret the harmful family that has abandoned us and it will spoil the present. If we look forward we can anticipate and enjoy the loving family we can build.

mud

[reallyME]

There is oh SOOOOOOOOOOO much I want to say on this thread.


Hops I think:

That's why her NM is cracking. And it's just as it should be.
This is how the universe responds.

I have to agree with this.  When X hurt someone else after me, I got to see a repeat performance of the "cracking" when victim #2 began pulling away from X as I had finally done.  X started talking gibberish, sounding paranoid, saying they weren't able to go on and they felt they had failed people and God and just didn't know which way to turn.  Interestingly enough, it was a matter of weaks before the next N supply came along, and all of a sudden X was back on top of the world again, as though they never had any sort of relapse while awaiting the next source of supply.  It's just how they are and just what they do.  Our job is to not become their SOURCE in the first place.

tayana: I wish things could be different.  I really do.  Thank  you for the advice.  Maybe when I talk to my father, things will get better, but I don't think it will.

My opinion...other than a miracle from God, please don't count on that.  My guess is that your father, if he still lives with N, has become an enabler to her, doing her bidding and meeting her every whim.  He will most likely lean toward her side.

Hops again:
I love your image of the Nparent as a big destructive baby. And you're right. When we do the mind-flip and understand that WE are the adult and THEY are (genuinely...no matter the adult clothes or occupation) an arrested child...it's so much easier.

The main reason N's are N's is because of neglect, abuse or being spoiled as children.  They very much are simply babies and children in adult bodies emotionally and socially at times.  They have become artful at using manipulation, being people-studiers, even taking psychology classes so they can "read" you very accurately.  They are scary at times, bordering on psychopathology or sociopathology.  The best thing you can do with a true N, is stay as far away from them as  you can, especially since you are now a married adult and have NO NEED to even be talking to this woman, other than an occasional "hi" "bye"  Are some of us urging you to DISOWN your own "mother?"  If that is the only way you can maintain your own identity and stop being jerked around and coming away feeling less than human, YES!

Overcomer: My moms delusions are that she rewrites history.  She conveniently forgets what she said, denies that she says it and upsets the apple cart.  If you can prove she said it then she simply says she did not mean it.  There have been a couple times that I have wanted to jump across her desk and choke her right then and there!

I have lived this one too.  X would tell me that they could totally forget what we shared without a problem, as though it never happened.  Hearing them say that, felt CREEPY, as though they seriously could ERASE a part of our history together.  I mean, they had ME believing it could be done by them.  For those things X didn't want to remember, they would do what Overcomer just said...tell me that I was mistaken, that they didn't mean it, that I misinterpreted it...and, the frightening thing again was, they could twist things that happened in such a way that I was also convinced that it was the way X said it was.  Yes, X also would go through this thing of "I can't believe you thought I'd say/do that.  I'd NEVER do that to you...all the to, "well, if THAT IS WHAT YOU WANNA BELIEVE, THEN THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO TO CONVINCE YOU OTHERWISE..."all in the same convo.  I witnessed this again with the next Nsupply source...same words, same way of weaseling out of admitting the truth.  N's repeat history and use similar tactics with each person, cause it works for them.

~RM

[wiltay]

        I've thought about the fabrications that Ns do a lot because it's so weird and I've encountered it so many times.   Ns are like little kids at the stage before they have developed an identity, which is the point they have been developmentally arrested, it seems clear.  There is no sense of a self to reflect back on their own actions so accountability is not even a possibility yet.  (Ns never take responsibility for anything they do unless you nail them into a corner they are absolutely unable to get out of).  Truth is a meaningless concept because the child has yet to develop the intellectual capacity to comprehend ideas.  The only thing that has value at this stage is what works.  Anything that brings success is good, anything that causes failure is bad. Truth for it's own sake has zero value.  (N's are unabashed at telling lies and esp. at bending the truth just a few degrees out of kilter (harder to get caught or just effing with your brain?). They seem to see nothing morally wrong with lying at all, you just shouldn't get caught at it, but if you do, big deal). High-minded concepts like good and bad, right and wrong, have yet to come into being. (I swear Ns are completely amoral, without a conscience and can act as innocent as a lamb after sabotaging you).

   The crazy-making thing, the enraging part, is an ADULT who still operates on this primitive level.  N's are intellectually mature adults who can 'act' pretty normally most of the time, but are still emotional 3 year olds and refuse to acknowledge the difference between right and wrong, EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW IT.   I have also 'lost it' and had the same 'homicidal urges' as you overcomer, for the same reasons.   What Vaknin(sp?) says about N's ability to imitate and mimic the right behavior is so true (more lying).  One of the most irresponsible and unreliable people I ever employed (I have a remodeling business) was an N who was just an absolute paragon of sobriety and maturity on the surface.  He kept fooling me over and over again, constantly betraying my trust, because I just couldn't figure out what the deal was.  Things that happened just didn't make any sense.  Fooling you is what Ns are SOO good at.  IMO this capacity for deception wins the prize for being just about the worst thing about Ns. 

Bill

[wiltay]

I am so impressed, Bean.  Very tough story.  Congratulations for coming out whole and happy, it's quite an accomplishment.   I've been alienated from what's left of my family (only a brother and a sister) for a long time, but that was almost expected.  My parents were alienated from their siblings either partially (F) or completely (M) almost my entire life, so I hardly knew my aunts and uncles or cousins, let alone my nieces and nephews.  I never had much sense of a family to lose in the first place.  Still it's very sad and regrettable that things turned out this way.   I'm trying to get inspired to reform some kind of relationship with my N sister as my emotional act is getting whipped into better shape, but for some reason I keep procrastinating. 

Bill

[sunblue]

Hmmm....Both my parents were also alienated from their siblings.  In both instances, the alienation mostly occurred afer my grandparents died.  As such, I did not have contact with aunts, uncles, cousins or other extended relatives.

I wonder if this is a common trait for Ns and their families?  They seem to isolate from everyone----no close ties to their own biological families, no close friends or social relationships with colleagues.  Growing up in a household like that makes it worse for the children since there is no one outside the dysfunctional family to mirror or see that there is a different way.

[wiltay]

I think you're right, sun blue.  I think that's the way it is.

Bill

[finding peace]

Bean -

I read the following and just about fell off my chair - I have been here awhile, but it still amazes me that so many of you really, really know and understant what I have lived through!!!!!

They definetely do not define me, and that is key.  It took me this many tries, but I don't see myself as they saw me.

I will never forget the moment I woke up to the fact that I was seeing who I was through their eyes - not mine.  IOW - My definition of myself was based on their beliefs - not mine.  It was a huge, eye-opening realization.  Once I realized this, I was able to stop it in its tracks, and begin to redefine myself based on who I thought I was.  Gotta say - life is a lot easier when I view myself through my eyes rather than theirs.

Peace

[tayana]

I wonder if this is a common trait for Ns and their families?  They seem to isolate from everyone----no close ties to their own biological families, no close friends or social relationships with colleagues.  Growing up in a household like that makes it worse for the children since there is no one outside the dysfunctional family to mirror or see that there is a different way.

Sun, my parents have never had close friends.  If they had friends they always ended up alienating them at some point.  My dad had four sisters, but growing up, I never played with any of their kids.  I never stayed with any of them.  My parents talked very negatively about them all the time.  I suppose I should clarify, I remember my mother talking negatively about them all the time.

I was always afraid to have friends over.  My brother told me he was never allowed to have friends over.  I do remember having a friend over a few times, and afterwards, my mother talked about my friends so badly that I never invited them over again.  I never was allowed to go to their houses.  The only time I got out was after my friends were able to drive and they came to pick me up. 

I was horribly lonely, and I didn't realize how odd it was until I was much older.  A few times, my parents made friends with neighbors, and I would like having the  neighbors over.  Except my mom would get to where she would hide when they knocked on the door.  I remember one time, not so long ago, some former neighbors stopped by and I really wanted to see them, but she didn't want them in the house.  So she pretended not to be home, then told me she just didn't feel like dealing with people that day.

[sunblue]

Tayana:

Yes, I can definitely relate.  My parents had no real friends at all.  I don't think they either valued friendships or wanted to be around people they couldn't control.  My Nmom worked with a woman for decades and was "friendly" with her in a superficial way.  But as soon as the woman retired, she never saw or talked to her again.  Not exactly what I'd call a friend. 

Growing up, I was very lonely as well.  I had a very abusive older Nsister who made it clear from the time I have memory that she wanted nothing to do with me.  I had a "healthy" brother who was always gone from the house with his friends.  I had no real friends.  My Nmom refused to allow us to have friends over since she was afraid they would mess up the house or disturb the neighbors.  She, too, would run and hide when a neighbor occasionally would ring the doorbell for a visit.  What others thought of her, strangers and neighbors, were just soooo important to her.  She wouldn't let us go to neighbors houses at Halloween time or other occasions for fear we would "bother" them.  We weren't allowed to play outside by our house very much because, again, it might disturb the neighbors.  When we got a new piece of furiture or other item in the house, she made sure to lecture us to make sure we didn't tell anyone what we had.  Everything was and is always a secret. 

She didn't like us to spend time with friends, especially if it meant she had to make any effort like us drive us there or pick us up.  So, I never had any real friends.  It was a very lonely childhood.

I remember once I was out of town for a business trip and my aunt (my Nmom's sister) died.  I felt very close to my aunt but my mom never called me to tell me she passed away.  Instead, she planned and attended the funeral and memorial and didn't tell me until it was all over and I returned home.  She knew I would be on the first plane back but she had to "control" everything.

When it comes to friends, neither my Nmom or co-dependent dad ever cultivated friends even though they had opportunities.  They were always so secretive with everyone.  I've also noticed that Ns have no sense of "fun" or "adventure".  My Nmom, for example, never wanted to engage in activities you normally do with children that were just about fun.  She has no sense of humor, no hobbies or interests of her own.  Although I was involved in a number of activities, she would never attend or take an interest in them.  Never even ask me about them.  The world and my family revolved around her always.

It was a very isolated and dysfunctional family I lived in.  I'm beginning to see how this is a pattern with N families.  No wonder I never have had any friends or relationships.....Very painful stuff to realize sometimes.

Thank you for sharing your stories.

[tayana]

Oh Sun, I can relate so well!

My family was also very isolated and its extremely dysfunctional, although I'm sure anyone looking in from the outside wouldn't realize it.  There was never any physical abuse, but there was plenty of emotional and verbal abuse and quite a bit of neglect. 

My mother didn't like for me to play outside because I might get my clothes dirty.  I always had to have "good" clothes and "everyday" clothes, even though sometimes I didn't get to wear the "good" clothes because she didn't want to mess them up.  Everything had to be ironed, including jeans, and it had to be worn a certain way, no matter if it was stylish or not. 

With M, he was never allowed to go out and play because of his allergies or because he'd get dirty.  He couldn't take toys outside because they might become valuable eventually, and she didn't want him to mess them up.  He could never get things out because he was making a mess.  Everything had to be put back so so, and nothing was ever arranged so that a child could put things back.  We had to keep every box, even if there was no room for the boxes.

She complained about the few friends I had.  One of my friends was very overweight, and so I was all the time hearing how I shouldn't be around her because I wouldn't get dates.  I wasn't really interested in dating, although I wanted to be like everyone else.  I felt very different and isolated.  I always blamed it on my maturity level, but I'm starting to realize that I just didn't really know how to interact with other people because I'd been kept isolated.  I still have problems related to other people, especially in new situations.

I was involved in a lot of activities in school, and she complained when I had to get up early for band, complained about having to shuttle me back and forth to school.  The only reason she let me ride with my friend later on was because she didn't want to have to drive me.  She was very concerned about her job at that point, and that's what really mattered to her.  I could never get M involved in things because she complained if she had to take him, or if she had to drive a few miles to take him to an activity.  I wanted to get him involved in scouts, something that the neuropsych who diagnosed his autism recommended for social skills, but she went on and on about the scouts molesting boys and how awful that was, that I finally stopped saying anything.  I think M is too old and has missed too much now to join. 

Anytime I wanted to try something new, like a sport (I ran track for a year), she complained about the expense.  She would let me do it, but she would complain about it. 

She would show up at my concerts and act really proud, and then we'd get home and she'd criticize what she'd seen.

She has no hobbies or interests of her own, unless TV counts.  She says it's because her eyes are so bad, but I don't really believe that.  She just uses her health as an excuse.  She could still get involved with something, but if she has to leave the house, she doesn't want to do it.

She's very concerned with what people think, like cooking a huge meal when my brother visits and complaining that anyone suggests ordering pizza.  She always says, he won't want pizza.  he wants something homecooked.  Everything has to be perfect and just so.

And secrets . . . I can't believe the secrets. "Don't tell your father" or "don't tell your mother."  My father even now, "We just won't say anything about this."  I get so tired of all the secrets.