Author Topic: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help  (Read 10919 times)

Hopalong

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2007, 09:08:37 PM »
Thank you, (((((((((Leah)))))))))).

Back at you. Times over.

love
Hops
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wiltay

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2007, 09:27:23 PM »
I think the 'helping' professions are rife with Ns.  I've known at least three people in the counciling/therapy field who were major Ns of the kindly, saintly variety.  The role is perfect for someone who is controlling and manipulative because the job gives them license to be completely in charge where people are vulnerable and trusting.  N heaven= power, the narcotic of choice for an N.  Other Ns are never their clients by choice because the last thing they will tolerate is someone else controlling the agenda.  That leaves the Voiceless as their main client base and there are plenty of us to go around.  Please don't think I'm indicting all therapists.  There are many wonderful people in this profession (and I have met a some), but there are also a whole bunch of Ns IME.   It's a perfect setting for all their mind games.  My 'two cents' of life experience.

Bill

isittoolate

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2007, 10:32:26 PM »
hiya Gangel

What usually ends up happening to them?

Well he and I had a partnership computer business . I did the books, did instruction and not much more (I do more now) He built the computers and sold them, without any thought to the price he paid for the parts. There were times he had to borrow from me to pay for a shipment, but I had signing authority so as as soon as he deposited the $$$ for the sale of that computer, I wrote myself a cheque----then the point came that I said, "Why don't I just clean out all my bank accounts and send that to your ex and the 2 kids and we start from scratch" ? He never ask to borrow again.

.....but I was wanting to get out. I figured somehow he would slacken off and my part of the partnership would allow the government to sieze my accounts. I left him and dissolved the business and he went on a 6 month drunk and lost his highest paying cusrtomer---a chain of hotels around the province.

Much of his mail would come to me at my new address.......my name on it and I had to keep track

He then was in the position that the only thing he could do was rent rooms in the house to live--- he ended up with nothing and now 5 years after I have made a LOT of money and have forgotten the a** except for trashing my car and locking me out of the house.

Oh Yes! some get theirs and others just slide right by!

Izzy

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« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 10:35:12 PM by isittoolate »

Leah

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2007, 08:15:44 AM »
I think the 'helping' professions are rife with Ns.  I've known at least three people in the counciling/therapy field who were major Ns of the kindly, saintly variety.  The role is perfect for someone who is controlling and manipulative because the job gives them license to be completely in charge where people are vulnerable and trusting.  N heaven= power, the narcotic of choice for an N.  Other Ns are never their clients by choice because the last thing they will tolerate is someone else controlling the agenda.  That leaves the Voiceless as their main client base and there are plenty of us to go around.  Please don't think I'm indicting all therapists.  There are many wonderful people in this profession (and I have met a some), but there are also a whole bunch of Ns IME.   It's a perfect setting for all their mind games.  My 'two cents' of life experience.

Bill

Bill,

Definately, for example, my XNH is a 'caring' professional.   :shock:  Tis' true.

He knew all about 'mirroring' and 'projection' a long long time ago.

Me ... i was in the land of 'crazy-making' wondering "what the hell?"  Looking back it was hell!!!

Leah
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 08:19:47 AM by LeahsRainbow »
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gabbenangel

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2007, 12:52:23 PM »
Yep, it seems this particular potential N therapist was always projecting her stuff on me and it made me feel crazy...and it made me second guess myself. Once she pointed out something good about me but she said ahead of time "don't let this go to your head."  Looking back the only reason that she was pointing out a good quality of mine was because it could benefit her image.

She had zero boundaries as a spiritual director and therapist. She would often socialize with her clients, whom I noticed all seemed vulnerable because they were wanting acceptance as well they idolized her and wanted to feed off of her popularity. She would never offer anyone personal information about herself so it led to confusion on my part I'd think -- OK, she wants to socialize but she will not open up and be a receptively human.  It is as if she would seek the company of her clients to surround herself with praise and admiration, however, if her clients needed something from her, when you were not in appointment or direction, she would treat you with a lukewarm passive shoulder.

The two times I gently tried to confront her she acted confused and blameless. I tried to express my frustration at her lack of empathy for my grief over my father and her response was a defensively slung apology " oh, I'm sorry, I should have known that, I have 8 years of grief counseling." She ignored my pain and did not have even offer an ounce of sympathy for my grief or question if I could be still hurting. One of the most powerful ways that a counselor or even a normal person can help heal another is to extend then a sense of warm compassion and empathy that speaks from the heart, if it is not there then it is not there. It was then that I realized that her heart was cold.

Her mask is one of kindness and meekness. Her image seemed to be her life and God forbid if someone threatened her image, as I did by confronting her, she found ways using her status, to make it seem that that I was the unhealthy one, she would act distressed and pretend I was hurting her or could hurt her; for how could anyone think for one second that she has a cold heart and is deeply motivated by envy and fear?

She was also highly distrustful, I would say something good, and from pure motives, and she would respond with silent distrust.

I have fear because I want to continue to work in ministry with my parish and community but I fear her gossip and slander of me in order to protect her image and to advance her agenda. I am one of the only person's that I know that can see under wool and I think that terrifies her and that she will go to no end to try to smear me in the subtle ways that N's do such as dropping negative hints about people over a long period of time. The only other person who I think knows that she is toxic is my pastor, she used to always complain to me how he would never even look at her or give her the time of day.

Ami

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2007, 03:35:58 PM »
Dear Friend
 My M is a therapist in Boston. She is a  NPD. She laughs at her clients . She loves to mock them behind their backs. While she is in the session, she answers  phone calls.
  Emotional health is  no factor in your getting a license to practice therapy or to be in the ministry.
  Gabbenangel, you sound like you are very clear thinking.Also, you seem to be connected to God, I think that you will be led as to where you should go to church and what ministry you should be involved with.
  I think that if you ask for Guidance and just go by "baby" steps, you will be led in the right direction.
 I think that you have a lot to offer in any ministry. You really, really helped me last night. The thought hit me that maybe you were a "real" angel. You truly, truly helped me to go forward with facing the truth.
   It was such  a boost to me. Love to you and  Thankful hug , Ami


(((((((((((((((((Gabbenangel)))))))))))))))))
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

wiltay

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2007, 03:44:50 PM »
     Gab, you describe this person so well.  Very easy for me to imagine her.   She is the CLONE of the person who was my 'best friend' (that is such a joke!) for almost 10 years.  "Randy" is/was a mental health councilor, loved by everyone, including me of course, until I finally confronted him with his constant need to control and manipulate everybody and everything.  Essentially he appointed himself benevolent dictator for life in every situation by being sneaky and devious. This included artfully sabotaging any and all competition for his spotlight, myself included of course.  I now know he was sabotaging me from Day One of our 'friendship.' This was within a large social group I use to belong to. 

    His mannerisms are identical to what you describe: caring, kind, mild-tempered and meek.  You can easily imagine him wearing a halo to go with his angelic face.  Very unassuming and 'trustworthy,' but he never revealed the smallest inch of himself, ever.  I use to think it was just another power ploy(he knows everything about you, you know nothing about him) and I think that's true, but more importantly I think there was nothing there to reveal!  The N as an emotionless, robotic, empty shell.  And whenever you asked for real sympathy or feeling you got a heart of stone.  Again, nobody home. 

     What I wanted to say mostly though was that I tried to salvage some of my relationships, some good, very-long time friendships, within this social group and I've finally had to give them all up, one by one.  Over a two year period he has slowly and completely 'poisoned the well' so that I can't drink the water without getting sick.  He has been relentless (and successful) in trying to destroy all of my relationships within this group.  It is as you say--he is TERRIFIED by anyone who can see through his mask and threaten his house of mirrors.  I am the crack in the mirror and intolerable. There is no 'live and let live' for him, it's life or death.   

    Mostly he has done this by employing (manipulating) two other people (that I know of!) to smear me and make me look bad, while he always stays an arms-length away with clean hands.  One of these people is an emotionally disturbed woman whom he has manipulated into outright hatred of me and she has taken on the task of vilifying me as her mission in life.  It's absurd really.  While people don't take her all that seriously she leaves a poisonous residue in her wake and people's opinion of me subtlety changes without them even being aware of it.  To make a long story short, the whole situation has become very toxic for me.  I start to feel crappy about myself almost immediately when I'm around these people and my peace of mind and generally good spirits turn sour like old milk.  I find myself getting irritated and disappointed with people for being so gullible and sheep-like and then of course they like me even less.  It's a no-win situation and life is much much too short.  Thanks for listening.

Bill

gabbenangel

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2007, 04:09:53 PM »
Hi Ami,

Thank you for your insights and kind compliments. I'm glad that you are feeling better today.

Yes, you are correct I just have to trust God - it is His show and he will point me in the right direction, yep "baby-steps" I like that. I once heard that if you take the power of Satan and compare it with God's triumph it is like comparing and ant to the empire state buidling. Thank you Ami!

Gabbenangel

Leah

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2007, 04:16:28 PM »

Quote
Gabbenangel wrote:

She was also highly distrustful, I would say something good, and from pure motives, and she would respond with silent distrust.

I have fear because I want to continue to work in ministry with my parish and community but I fear her gossip and slander of me in order to protect her image and to advance her agenda. I am one of the only person's that I know that can see under wool and I think that terrifies her and that she will go to no end to try to smear me in the subtle ways that N's do such as dropping negative hints about people over a long period of time. The only other person who I think knows that she is toxic is my pastor, she used to always complain to me how he would never even look at her or give her the time of day.


Dear Gaggenangel,

Having read your posts, likewise, my ongoing close relationship with God, has been the source and strength; that has held me, kept me, and led me, all the way through and along my life journey from young childhood to the woman of today.

Quote
Re: She was also highly distrustful, I would say something good, and from pure motives, and she would respond with silent distrust.


My personal experience tells me that the person you describe has envy in her heart. 

Quote
I have fear because I want to continue to work in ministry with my parish and community but I fear her gossip and slander of me in order to protect her image and to advance her agenda.

Have no fear, but instead place your trust in God because you have given your heart to work in ministry within your parish and community and he will honor that - not saying that all will be easy, from my own personal experience, most likely it will be a test and a trial for you, but you have a strong ally in your pastor who clearly seems to have rightly discerned this person's toxicity.

With God for you no-one can triumph against you.  We just lean on his understanding and place our total trust in him.

Prayerfully thinking of you.

Love, Leah
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

gabbenangel

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2007, 04:54:46 PM »
[    Mostly he has done this by employing (manipulating) two other people (that I know of!) to smear me and make me look bad, while he always stays an arms-length away with clean hands.  One of these people is an emotionally disturbed woman whom he has manipulated into outright hatred of me and she has taken on the task of vilifying me as her mission in life.  It's absurd really.  While people don't take her all that seriously she leaves a poisonous residue in her wake and people's opinion of me subtlety changes without them even being aware of it.  To make a long story short, the whole situation has become very toxic for me.  I start to feel crappy about myself almost immediately when I'm around these people and my peace of mind and generally good spirits turn sour like old milk.  I find myself getting irritated and disappointed with people for being so gullible and sheep-like and then of course they like me even less.  It's a no-win situation and life is much much too short.  Thanks for listening.

Bill
[/quote]

Hi Bill:
 Have you ever seen this web-site:
Here is an excerpt:

So, projection is everywhere.


The worst thing about it is that mud sticks best to a clean spot. I'm sure that people who do this think they're clever, but it's childsplay. Send a muddy child into an unsupervised school yard and wait to see what happens. He will rub himself off on every cleaner, smaller child he can find, till they are all crying and he looks good by comparison.

Looks good by comparison. Those are the all-important words. The hypocrite makes himself look good by comparison with others. He does that the easy way — by smearing himself off on others to make them look bad. This is the root of envy. Which is NOT a rare motive for what people say about others. It's an all-too-common motive.

http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/narcissistic_projection.htm

Leah

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2007, 05:22:51 PM »
Quote
So, projection is everywhere.

The worst thing about it is that mud sticks best to a clean spot. I'm sure that people who do this think they're clever, but it's childsplay. Send a muddy child into an unsupervised school yard and wait to see what happens. He will rub himself off on every cleaner, smaller child he can find, till they are all crying and he looks good by comparison.

Looks good by comparison. Those are the all-important words. The hypocrite makes himself look good by comparison with others. He does that the easy way — by smearing himself off on others to make them look bad. This is the root of envy. Which is NOT a rare motive for what people say about others. It's an all-too-common motive.

http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/narcissistic_projection.htm


WOW!  Thanks Gabbenangel,

for posting the above, indeed, truly validating and most encouraging.

Quote

LeahsRainbow wrote:

My personal experience tells me that the person you describe has envy in her heart. 


So gratefully thankful.

Love, Leah
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

wiltay

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2007, 09:27:54 PM »
Gabbenangel, thanks for the info/article on projection. Some comforting words and lots of good stuff that illuminates some things I have puzzled about for a long time.  I agree that projection is a huge factor in human relationships and esp concerning the mind-games of narcissists.  I've even been accused of projection myself when I know it's actually the accuser doing the projecting of the projection!   Gosh, the double-backflips that people can do to blind themselves to their own flaws.  Not that I'm not capable of the same thing myself. Well, maybe not a double back-flip! But the minute you start pointing fingers it's time to look in the mirror.

 If you are 'new to narcissism' (very hard to believe, you are so aware and knowledgable), you do not realize how dedicated and motivated this woman will be to destroy you and drive you away from her world.  The danger you represent to her is 'existentially threatening' (per Vaknin, but I know this first hand).  I was willing to live and let live with Randy and move on, but he was not and COULD NOT.  She will spread her poison to everyone she can and she has far more power and credibility in this situation than you and you will be at a supreme disadvantage from the start.  Your unwillingness to even 'engage' will do you no good.  She will bring the battle to your doorstep and give you no choice. 

 Notice that the "innocent" people he fooled ain't innocent. They committed the Original Sin, believing an obvious lie just because it was juicy. Like Eve.........Narcissists and political character assassins are dangerous precisely because people do this. If, say, you have known someone for 10 years, you know a lot about him. Doubtless, you have seen his honesty tested and seen that he proved to be an honest man. So, nobody should be able to slither up to you tomorrow and tell you he's dishonest. If you buy that, you are betraying that honest man. To believe that lie, you must annihilate history and 10 years of evidence to the contrary. You are not innocent.   


The above is from the article your referred to.  I don't entirely agree with this.  Good people can become ill from poisons spread by toxic people who are in positions of power.  Even healthy people can catch the flu. So much of human behavior is subconscious and when people become fearful  (e.g. afraid of picking the losing side when they don't have a clue what's going on) they behave in ways that are not typical for themselves in normal circumstances.   Memories become short and even non-existent in a battle for hearts and minds. They probably also greatly fear becoming a target themselves. 

   But forget about them.  If they choose against you despite their knowledge of truth, they've chosen out of fear, not reason and the consequences are their problem, I agree.  The real hazard is becoming infected yourself and becoming toxic yourself, which is what happened to me.  Out of pure defensiveness from being constantly attacked I became obnoxious and not-myself and I wandered in a wasteland of anger and sorrow for a long time.   I'm not saying this will happen to you because you are not me, but it's something to consider.  In some battles, there is nothing to win.   In hindsight, I couldn't have done too many things differently given the state of my knowledge and spiritual development at the time and so here I am, just grateful to be feeling much better.

Bill
 


Leah

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2007, 06:36:55 AM »
Quote
Gabbenangel wrote:

The worst thing about it is that mud sticks best to a clean spot. I'm sure that people who do this think they're clever, but it's childsplay. Send a muddy child into an unsupervised school yard and wait to see what happens. He will rub himself off on every cleaner, smaller child he can find, till they are all crying and he looks good by comparison.

Looks good by comparison. Those are the all-important words. The hypocrite makes himself look good by comparison with others. He does that the easy way — by smearing himself off on others to make them look bad. This is the root of envy. Which is NOT a rare motive for what people say about others. It's an all-too-common motive.

http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/narcissistic_projection.htm



Gabbenangel,

Simply cannot thank you enough for posting the above link to the most insightful and conceptual writing on the subject of Projection that I have yet to come across during my quest for answers.

Printed off some 12 pages to include:  Projection, The Projection Machine, and Projective Identification.

Believe with all my heart that the study of which will provide much needed, and desired, closure.

With thanks,

Leah

Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

gabbenangel

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2007, 06:00:46 PM »
Hi Bill,

You said:

If you are 'new to narcissism' (very hard to believe, you are so aware and knowledgable), you do not realize how dedicated and motivated this woman will be to destroy you and drive you away from her world. the danger you represent to her is 'existentially threatening'.....

I AM new to ever having an experience with a real sincere N. But I am not new to psychology and personality disorders. However, I never knew that much about them until my run in with this past N. About 3 months ago I started researching...at first it was because she shunned me with such a fierce slam that I thought that I must be the deeply disordered one, I had her up on a pedestal for a long time and only occasionally would I see under her mask and even then I would dismiss it rationalize it. I went through 2 months of distress...praying all the while.

My prayers led me to pay attention to my intuition which led me to research N's....it was as if one day I was staring at a website about N's and I could not believe my eyes...it was her. I read all that I could...I weighed carefully her behaviors and mine so that I could be clear and just when I felt my heart say it was not my fault...my old pain came up around my mom's abuse and abandonment. My mom was more a paranoid than  N but she had the some of the same qualities as N's.

Why is it that N's or deeply disorder people are the ones the wounded gravitates towards? Not all people that I gravitate towards are disordered but I can see that the healtier I get the more that I gravitate towards no one...people seem to gravitate towards me.


gabbenangel

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Re: I think I have just had my 1st encounter with a Narcissist - help
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2007, 06:16:57 PM »
Also Bill,

I take to heart your warning about her not letting me off the hook, N's from what I have read, will use trickery, carefully dropping subtle negative hints, covered over in caring language about the people they which to smear. They will do this over a long period of time. I can feel the slander even though I have heard very little peopel have stopped calling me over the last few months which is very odd....Gossip creates paranoia in those that have been gossiped about...we start feeling as though everyone is talking about us. I try never to act on that stuff and I try to stay rational...I feel it is one of the mind games that N's play...they have you pegged... they know your buttons and they work them. I bet as soon as I start feeling better and start gaining a new perspective she will somehow reappear in my life again.

The good news is that I have friends and family that she can never touch. There are people that love and support me these are people that she will never be able to relate to and they would see through her wool suit from the first glance. I will just hang with them.

The challenge is what you say...to remain detached and not to engage in their behavior of gossip or defense tactics, not to stoop to their level.

While praying this past weekend I got an image of Christ asleep in the stern of the boat as it was tossing about during the storm and the disciples were flipping....it was as if it was God saying to me just be at peace through the storm...all will pass.

Peace and thank you for your input and comments. I really enjoy reading your posts.

Have a great weekend-- if I do not get chance to get back on line when you post.

Peace,
Lise