distress and compassion

[wiltay]

Lise, I thought you were actively involved within this group now, but I guess you aren't?  It's a little confusing.  If you are no threat to her little empire anymore she won't give you a second thought I'm sure.   I honestly don't think Ns have much of a clue what they are doing, certainly very little awareness, if any at all, of the havoc and pain they cause in other people's lives.  But they wouldn't care anyway! They have hardly any shame, hardly any self-awareness IMO. (Samuel Vaknin is exceptional I think as far as awareness).  They seem to have a huge amount of anxiety and are driven and compulsive, so I think they are also victims of their upbringing, but IMO they deserve very little sympathy beyond their mere humanity.   Gosh, I get tired of talking about them! They have such a need for attention and then they get even more for being so rotten!

Bill

[gabbenangel]

Hi Bill,

Yes, I guess you can say that my over preoccupation with he,r the N, and perhaps my distress, might make it seem that I am still involved with the group. I only recently stopped working with her AGAIN.  I left her group a year ago. I also left working with her a year ago. But then, this summer, I was told to work with her by the priest while he was a way... In my gut I did not want to but I thought that maybe her manipulation was all in my head, he seemed to like her so why should not I.

Then this summer she shunned me after I tried to confront. It was her long over due punishment from leaving her group and leaving my work with her last year. Last year, the week after I left my work with her and left her group, she got the priest...who she knew I really cared for, to run her prayer group. I thought to myself.." huh...could she be??? hmmm...na, she would never do that."  Now I see that she has been subtly protecting her image from my scrutinizing eyes for a while.

Lise

[wiltay]

Lise, no, no one had a clue what was going on. And they STILL don't. (And it doesn't matter anymore)   It's kind of complicated and hard to explain simply but I'll try to give you a shortened version.  Randy just showed up one day out of the blue at a group sit-down lunch.  He hadn't been around for a long time and he had evidently been busy peddling the story that I was driving/keeping him away from the group with 'my anger."  A total projection and flip flop of reality.  HE was angry with ME for confronting him over his shabby treatment (I was respectful, but uncompromising--I'd done enough of that already!) and he was so uncomfortable being around me (I was the crack in the mirror of his sainthood) that he was in fact trying to drive ME away.  I had no problem ignoring him, but he couldn't ignore me!   Background:  He had been the informal evening 'social director,' a major source of his N supply, and had in fact provided a valuable service to the group for Saturday night entertainment for quite awhile.  I had been his first and biggest and truest  supporter in getting this going and it had taken a long  time.  Did anyone remember that? Not a chance, but they DID resent me for 'driving him away.!" 

   So anyway, he just shows up.  After two years of the silent treatment (I too have abandonment issues, Lise, and it was very hurtful) and sending regular toxic waste at me via his cronies.  I am sitting at another table minding my own business, talking to some people about a movie I really wanted to see and the people at my table thought it would be good too and also wanted to go.  Well, Randy has been listening carefully from way over there and he reaches over into this private conversation (talk about violating boundaries!) and announces to everybody that the Movie Group (another one of his N supply fixes that I supported when no one else did) 'really didn't think the movie was very good.'  Just trying to save you the trouble, don't you know?   It's the kiss of death for the movie for my table of people.  Randy has a way of presenting something, in a way that I can't do justice to, that if you see this useless dog you have about as much sophistication as a three-legged mutt wearing a bow tie with ketchup on it.   I lost it.  It's really kind of funny.  Tables and chairs flying through the air like in an old Western.  I am a very violent person now and people look at me warily, even if they weren't there.  Poor Randy, what you get for trying to do someone a favor!   

[gabbenangel]

Wow...what a story and one that I could relate with so well except the fight scene

"(I was the crack in the mirror of his sainthood)" This is such a good description of her.

I especially love the fight scene you very lightly described... I can imagine. The anger I experienced with this saint N brought up severe rage at the feelings of betrayal by my mom. It sound like that was the case for you with Randy too. You did a lot for him you cared for him and he treated you like you were nothing.

Just last night I was reflecting on how much I want to devalue my N wannabe saint woman and the priest because I feel rejected by them...I have been struggling with that. But I can't do that... it is only a defense against the deep pain and hurt of betrayal at my parents.

It is so much easier to let go of those we love and care about, even when they hurt us, when we can say well they were messed up or they are not that important or they are an N etc... when the truth is if we want so much for our voice to be heard and valued is that not exactly what they are screaming for too....the difference is that we are honest and fooling ourselves way less than the N does?

I'm finally leaving my desk - talk to you soon. Thanks for writing Bill.

Lise

[wiltay]

Lise,  We are more honest and more trustworthy by a long shot.  We try to be decent to other people as best we can while they exploit others however they can, without any compassion or sense of shame.  They never hold themselves accountable for anything.  Don't you believe in accountability?

Bill

[wiltay]

The anger I experienced with this saint N brought up severe rage at the feelings of betrayal by my mom. It sound like that was the case for you with Randy too.  

   Not at all Lise.  This was not about my father at all, it was about Randy pretending to be my best friend for many years.  My father was ten times more trustworthy. 


You did a lot for him you cared for him and he treated you like you were nothing.

Exactly.

Also,  let's be clear, there was no physical contact of any kind.  But honestly, a punch in the nose would have been justified and I would not have felt badly about it.

Bill

[wiltay]

I should offer a little more explanation.  His comment had nothing whatever to do with the movie.  It may have been a complete lie that they didn't like it, it's immaterial.  He was calculatingly,  deliberately trying to sabotage my plans.  I must not have made that very clear.

[Gabben]

Hi Bill - I want to respond to what you wrote but I have to start working for a deadline at my work and I need to unplug until tomorrow.

Thanks for your posts. I think it is hard to get the real clear picture of all for your story and mine via e-mail forum...But I get the picture that you understand what I am going through and that helps.

Lise

[wiltay]

Ok, Lise. I confess I've become a little angry with you, but it's ok, it's just part of the 'process.' Come back when you have the time.
Bill

[gabbenangel]

Are you cross with me because I am not available? Or is it something else I've done?

I'm leaving my office now and won't be back on line until tomorrow. I WILL write to you then.

Lise

[wiltay]

Lise, I come here for support too.  I have just been through the most horrid two years of my life caused by an N whom I tragically and mistakenly believed to be my best friend for almost ten years. He was undermining me the entire time whenever he could while I was blissfully blind to it. Not one person in this group thinks I'm not the bad guy because not one of them has a clue about what a worm he really is. None of his hurt and angry ex-woman friends are around to support my version of reality because they were never part of the group to begin with.  I was really not interested in hearing sympathy for Ns,  nor for this horrible excuse for a human being, after I told you part of my story. Yes, it did make me angry.  I am still very sensitive to the whole situation and I'm still in recovery from it. In any event, you seem like a very sweet person who means well and I'm very willing to forgive you.

Bill

[gabbenangel]

  I was really not interested in hearing sympathy for Ns,  nor for this horrible excuse for a human being, after I told you part of my story. Yes, it did make me angry.  I am still very sensitive to the whole situation and I'm still in recovery from it. In any event, you seem like a very sweet person who means well and I'm very willing to forgive you.

Hi Bill - thank you for your honesty and I see your point. I think that my sympathy for N's was coming from my own neurotic guilt...I have such deep anger and shame...if I feel or suppress it,  I have counter it with a act of niceness or something or a justification for them, it is my defense against feeling my shame.
Your honesty has helped me grow and see this and stare the ugliness of the N's behavior right in the face and see it for what it is...deception, lies, pain to others and ouch, my anger and shame - but I can't heal what I can't feel.

Thank you for your forgiveness...I'll be more careful.

I hope that we can continue to connect, I'm grateful for the insights and time that you have given me.

Lise

[Safe]

Dear Gab...I too am dealing w/ the aftermath of a saintly N. When I last saw my NPH, we were sitting in front of our priest, while he was spouting lies about my mental state. Only 1 person from my parish will speak to me now. He's effectively done a smear campaign throughout the church. One of the most disturbing aspects, I've had to face lately, is that saintly N's choose allies that are most forgiving, have a strong sense of guilt & believe in the goodness of others. What better narcissistic supply could there be, than those innocents that fill up church pews? And to have a priest side w/ them...all the better for the N. After all, who'd dispute a priest? For me, one of the things that hurts most, is that my NH not only terrorized my emotions, trust & violated everything good in me, but he really hit me in my spiritual beliefs. A sacred part of me that I never would've believed could be shaken.I feel badly for my priest & parisheners who are but pawns in my NH's game. It's cruel what he's still doing to them. It's frustrating that I can't make them see the Truth. All I can do is pray for them. Know that you are aware & safe now and that God knows what's really happening. Reading your posts has made me feel that I'm not alone in this sordid aspect of N games. The saintly N knows how to push those buttons that strike at our core belief systems. I've found sites that deal w/ only this issue & now know that it's much more prevalent that I orginally thought. You are in my prayers Lise. Peace in Christ, Safe

[Hopalong]

the truth is if we want so much for our voice to be heard and valued is that not exactly what they are screaming for too....the difference is that we are honest and fooling ourselves way less than the N does?

Hi Lise...this feels true to me.

I can't imagine anything more frustrating than a "saintly" N.

At the very very very bottom, though, I think unless I can dredge up compassion for even the worst imagainable human being...they won. Their world view proven, their emptiness sanctified.

I won't give them that. That said, the compassion can be interrupted with fury. And better yet, I can feel it at a safe physical and emotional distance that might mean complete NC. Or full-tilt battle against them.

None of that invalidates my right and my choice to hold them in light of compassion, should I choose to. And I do.

Bill, I'm sorry you are angry but imo, Lise owes you no change in her behavior, and you are the only person responsible for how you respond to someone's post. Other posters can respond and adjust to your feelings if they wish, in whatever way is right and healthy for them, but you have no entitlement to demand it. (I do have compassion for your fury with your friend. I am not wishing a "fight". I'm just being blunt this morning. Hope you'll forgive that too, my friend.)

love to you both,
Hops

[gabbenangel]

the truth is if we want so much for our voice to be heard and valued is that not exactly what they are screaming for too....the difference is that we are honest and fooling ourselves way less than the N does?

Hi Lise...this feels true to me.

I can't imagine anything more frustrating than a "saintly" N.

At the very very very bottom, though, I think unless I can dredge up compassion for even the worst imagainable human being...they won. Their world view proven, their emptiness sanctified.

I won't give them that. That said, the compassion can be interrupted with fury. And better yet, I can feel it at a safe physical and emotional distance that might mean complete NC. Or full-tilt battle against them.

None of that invalidates my right and my choice to hold them in light of compassion, should I choose to. And I do.

Bill, I'm sorry you are angry but imo, Lise owes you no change in her behavior, and you are the only person responsible for how you respond to someone's post. Other posters can respond and adjust to your feelings if they wish, in whatever way is right and healthy for them, but you have no entitlement to demand it. (I do have compassion for your fury with your friend. I am not wishing a "fight". I'm just being blunt this morning. Hope you'll forgive that too, my friend.)

love to you both,
Hops

All that you wrote struck a cord in me....I thank  you for your post. I think that now I have to dig deeper and become even more honest. The truth is that I was afraid when Bill was angry at me...I want to please.. I was afraid at his possible rejection so I conformed...oh, how easily I can conform.

However, there was some truth to the guilt that I feel over my anger at N's. I can cover that guilt up by trying to play the saint myself but that was only a sliver of where I was coming from.

I guess I just want to see the world through Christ's eyes and Lord knows how many times I have been false, fake and covering up my real self too. I just don't want to hurt others and play games. I have been so hurt myself  - I want to care.

 How do I expect God to forgive me if I can't forgive others for the very same sins, though they are more blind and more deeply deceiving than I, we are all still living lives of duplicity on some levels. It is like the woman who committed adultery, "those without sin, cast the first stone."

Once again, I do not want to invalidate Bill's anger and hurt.

Thanks Hops and Bill - love you both too.
Lise