Please help; hanging on by a thread

[el123]

I was gone for a week visiting a friend last week (longest I've ever been away from the kids!).  My H and I had an agreement not to talk to his N mother or N brother as they were literally destroying our marriage/family.  (If interested, please refer to my previous posts.  Too long to put down and I'm too depressed to go over it again   ).  

Anyways, my H has a problem being honest with me when it comes to his family which is another of our problems.  Is this common with ACON's?  He lied to me and I found out that his N brother had called to tell him to call his mother so she "wouldn't die" (my N BIL is a DOCTOR and lives with N MIL with his family also N MIL could call 911 if there was a problem).  But my H called my N MIL and now she's back in our lives.  Of course she has absolutely no health problems whatsoever.  My H didn't even have to pick up the phone when my BIL called.  We have caller ID. The thing that irks me the most about this is that as soon as I'm gone, he picks up the phone when BIL or MIL call.  Because I'm not there to tell him not to.  I feel like he has placed me in the mother role.  

I know that my H has had it rough with the N's in his life (so have I, N mother...) but we AGREED to cut it off cold turkey with his mother and brother until we could work out our problems.  And it had been over a month with no contact and things were dramatically improving with us.  When I brought it up, we got into a HUGE fight (this is the same day I get back from a week of being gone).  He said it was just a 'white lie' and yelled at me.  He said that I was being unreasonable (even though our marriage is hanging on this...) I just wanted to spend time with my kids when I got back but I spent the night crying myself to sleep on the couch.  He is no good when I'm upset.  He kicks me when I'm down.  He's never been there for me when I was upset.  Is this common for ACON's as well?  I'm so upset.  I don't know what to do.  I can't live this way any longer.  I'm considering divorce even though I have 3 small children.  It's just unbearable.  I don't even know if I've explained this well enough for anyone to answer since I can't stop crying and reading is difficult.  I feel like I just want some encouragement.  Something to keep me hanging on.  Whenever a sliver of hope opens up, he shatters is.  He cannot be honest.  My therapist said that he didn't think my H was a N but I don't know.  What do I do?  How do I live this way?  I just want to dissapear.
-E

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, I don't remember your story nor do I know which are your previous posts. I understand how distraught you are. I can see how betrayed you feel, and how demoralizing his actions were. However there is something else. It's unrealistic to ask a partner to totally cut off family members, no matter how destructive they are.  The agreement between you and your husband was not practical or realistic. Even if it's a good idea to get rid of these people (I'm sure it is), asking him to cut them off is putting him in an impossible bind. That's why he went into a defensive mode and counterattacked when he felt threatened and cornered.

Maybe you do need to divorce him. But don't make that decision when you're upset. I would seek marital counseling first. Can your therapist refer you to someone today?

bunny

[less]

Hi there,

Sounds like a real pressure cooker you are in right now. Hang in there.  I have just come to this board so please excuse my amateur attempts here - Just wondered if you could release a bit of the pressure by scheduling an hour or so with your husband to go for a walk or talk to a mediator of some sort.  Raising children and dealing with N's-  it's an overflowing plate - the Full Catastrophe as one book teasingly put it.


I have a mother who is always dying but is also in perfect health - it isn't just a hook it's a hug grappling iron and it is so hard to resist it. I can't resist because well what if... and then I'd be left with huge guilt the rest of my life. There is a lot at stake. Possibly it is just too much for your husband to resist and yet he wants to appear to be honouring your agreement too.  You are both in a pretty tight place.

I would suggest softening a bit around the no contact with family as troubling as they must be for you. I'm sorry I don't know your history - I can only imagine how difficult it is to have these people in your life but perhaps there is a compromise position with lots of guidelines.
Good luck

[el123]

bunny, thanks for responding.  Unfortunately I don't know how to get to my old posts.  I tried plugging in my name but didn't get get the post I wrote about.  

My post was not very clear.  I know that it is completely unreasonable to ask anyone to cut off family members.  But we had a very uniqe situation.  In our situation, our IL's were destroying our marriage and our well being (My H was paying my MIL's bills even though we couldn't afford it and couldn't pay mortgage, my MIL was calling up EVERY day to threaten suicide, never following through of course, etc . etc.  Would not listen to boundaries.  There's LOTS more.  Just can't get to the posts   don't know why.  ugh!!  But this was WAY beyond appropriate and everyone, everyone, even our therapist, said we needed to cut her and BIL out of our lives for everyone's sake).  
 
-E

p.s.  Does anyone know how to get to previous posts?  I may have logged in as a guest.  But I think it was titled "My story".

[mighty mouse]

Hi El123,

Sorry for your dilemma.

Would you characterize your H as a Momma's boy? I don't mean to offend here. I was just wondering.

I know he's in a quandry, but his first allegience is to you and your family. If his Mom is fed and has a roof over her head, he has no further obligation to her IMO. And if she is being destructive to your family, he should stand up to her and tell her to take the proverbial hike! It sounds like he hasn't really gotten "it" yet.

I actually do think he should keep your agreement. ANYONE who is destructive to your family should be booted even if their name is Mom. I hope that sinks in to him pretty soon or he may lose his family.

Good luck to you.

MM

[el123]

I have been searching everywhere and cannot find the post I'm referring to so I'll sum up the destruction as best as I can.  Please keep in mind that this is only a snippet of it:  

My BIL is a multi-millionaire and a N and leads my H by the nose.  He tells my H to jump and my H says "how high".  Anyways, my BIL owes my MIL 1/2 a million dollars and somehow convinced my H to pay his bill.  My H kept this info from me and sent money to my MIL each month because and only because my BIL TOLD my H to.  Meanwhile my BIL's kids are in 30,ooo dollar/yr (no exaggeration on ANY of this) kindergarten, private piano, he just went in with others on a multi million dollar condo investment and we can't even pay our mortgage much less buy anything for ourselves and our kids were in NO activities cause we couldn't afford them.  I find out about this the way someone would an affair.  Looked through the cancelled checks and saw that each month H was paying my MIL what my BIL owed her because and only because BIL told my H to (my H has a VERY dysfunctional relationship with both his Mother and his Brother...).  H confessed finally.  Meanwhile, while this is going on, my N MIL is calling me EVERY day complaining that she is not getting the money that BIL owes her and she wants to commit suicide.  Not saying "oh, you are paying my bills.  Thanks". But instead, keeping me on my toes.  Thinking that she is terribly upset and giving her all of my support, etc.  Sometimes calling me 2 to 3 times per day.  And my H said that she has been doing this his entire life.  My Mil has constantly had my H choose between her or me and it's always been her.  For instance, right after my first child was born, she called him in to work even though he was supposed to have two weeks off (it was her restaurant that he worked in.  She was responsible for vacation, etc.) and I was bleeding heavily and needed a doctor to tell her that I needed someone with me in case I hemmorraged.  But my H only took off 2 days instead of two weeks and that was like pulling teeth simply because my MIL asked my H in to wait tables for God's sakes.  She called him into work when we were supposed to go on vacation (it would have been his only one in 1 1/2 yrs.  We were going to visit my family who we had moved away from so that we could be close to MIL and it was all set but at the last minute she said she needed him in)  She would call late at night obsessively leaving messages and yell that noone called her back because she wanted help cleaning her fridge.   Call on valentine's day night and ruin any chance of romance by threatening suicide because he cared more for me than her.  I could go on and on and on.  Literally write a book on all that she has done.  Yelled at me in a crowded wedding to watch my SIL's baby (leave the church and miss the wedding)  Literally yelled "GEt out!!" pointing at me to leave to watch my niece.  I never even said that I would watch my niece.  There's SO much more.  Please believe me when I say that she is ultra destructive to me, my family, my marriage.  My therapist (who even my H goes to now) said that both she and BIL are toxic and like a poison to us.  He said that they absolutely need to be cut off if our marriage has any chance of survival.  My H agreed to this!!!

That's why I'm so upset!  He immediately answered BIL's call and, since BIL said "Call mom" H thinks he has no choice but to call his mom.  I just don't know what to do here.  I have no trust in my H.  I have trust issues to begin with since my mother is a N.  My H yells at me because he thinks this is just a 'white lie' he said.  But it was what was keeping our marriage and family together.  

I am not articulating clearly and I apologize.  I'm just too upset.  And yes MM, H is definately a Momma's boy and I take no offense whatsoever to you asking that   .  She has a roof over her head, is fed, etc and agreed to not contact us as we told her that we were considering splitting up because of her and BIL's interference.  That's why this is so hard!  They're putting their hooks in again and H is once again falling for it.

Thanks Less, I'd love to just talk to my H but I just simply don't trust him to tell the truth at this point.  It's very frustrating.  He has broken my trust over and over again.  Talking seems pointless.  I am so upset over this.  I can barely care for my children right now.  
-E

[write]

sorry you're having a rough time.

It must be hard being mixed with such a dysfunctional crowd who all feed each other's problems, but when you get to the point of feeling unable to cope with your children maybe it's time to re-prioritise you and the kids and let the others go play without you...

You can't help your husband be independent, or to face his own issues,  he has to help himself.

But you can help yourself re-discover a sense of self and a calm homelife.

I asked my n h to move out @ 4 months ago and things are much better for us all ( with occasional blips of course )

I agonised about the decision for a couple of years but know 100% that it is the best way forward, and h ( who put himself in therapy ) agrees.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for reposting your story. It seems you credit the BIL and MIL for screwing up your marriage. They are crazy for certain but they aren't really the problem. The problem is a severely pathological family situation that a marriage probably can't override. Your husband is psychically fused with his relations. He feels at a deep level that he can't survive without them. So asking him to cut them off cold turkey is impractical.  I know you think your case is special and that's why he should cut them off, but it's actually similar to other situations, including my own with a MIL (who is now dead, thank goodness).  

You went away for a week. Your husband *could not survive that long* without his mother or a surrogate.

Your husband is stuck in an impossible bind: does he try to cooperate with you? Or does he cut off his lifeline: brother and mother. To him (as to you) this is life or death. His unconscious mind feels you're asking him to commit suicide. And he has a survival instinct.

Here are your options as I see them:

(1) Marriage counseling starting today or this week. Even if it's to talk about divorce.

(2) Call your own therapist asap as you are in a crisis. Ask for help.

bunny

[el123]

write,  It's great to hear that things are better with you since you made your decision for you H to move out.  Do you have children?  How are they handling it?  Just wondering because I've actually thought of this but the kids prevent me from it (thinking of how it will affect them).  

bunny,  I definately do not credit my BIL and MIL for screwing up our marriage.  We certainly have our share of problems.  For example, one major problem we have is that he cannot be there for me when I'm upset.  This goes back to his mother using him as surrogate husband and constantly using being upset in order to manipulate him.  He recognizes this and is trying to change this.  But the BIL and MIL definately make marriage a hell of a lot harder than if they weren't around.  I know that there is boundary issues in the family (to put it midly....).  But cutting them off cold turkey WAS working!  I cannot stress this point enough.  We hadn't spoken to them in about two months and both his stress level and mine were reduced by about 80%.  My H commented repeatedly to me how much life was better not speaking to them.  My BIL called while I was away.  I think he knew I was gone (my aunt is friends with MIL and told her). My H did not call him, my H just answered the phone.  My H wants to cut off his brother and mother.  This is not just me telling him to do it.  Also, we are both in therapy and our therapist agrees and advised him that cutting them off cold turkey is in the best interest of everyone.  The therapist even said that he refrains from telling people what to do but that he felt he had to say this in this case.  His brother was just trying to hook him back in because my H told his brother that he never wanted to speak to him again (they had a big blow out).  And my H was following through.  My H has told me and our therapist that he wants no contact with his brother or mother right now.  My H told his brother and mother this as well.  They are not respecting the boundaries he has set (and my H was weak and gave in).  This is not me forcing him into it.  It's just that his brother and mother are master manipulators and do their best to guilt him into doing what they want (his words).  He had a slip up and lied about it to me.  Yes, we have other problems but this is one that I'm dealing with at the moment.  -E

[Anonymous]

el123

I hear what you're saying. I don't think you forced your husband into cutting them off. I think you *asked* him to do it for the sake of the marriage. I also think he *hoped he could do it*. The therapist knows that these people are poison. However the therapist may not understand how powerful the attachment is, and how difficult it would be for your husband to maintain this boundary. I'm not sure how he thought your husband would be able to do it -- *even if* things got better (see next paragraph).

The sad fact is, when things start going better, people will frequently *revert* to their dysfunctional family and previous dependent behavior. I'm kind of surprised that your therapist didn't consider this possibility. I'm also surprised that the therapist believed your husband could cut these people off successfully. He's had decades of pathological life-or-death dependency on them. He feels he cannot survive without them, although he intellectually knows they're poison.

Anyway, I hope you can get an emergency martial counseling appointment because things are really critical right now.

BTW My husband was virtually the slave of his mother so I know what you're talking about.

bunny

[Learning]

Hi El,

I am pretty new to this forum and I am not sure if I have anything to offer you in the way of advice.  I just want to say that I am sorry you are going through this.  I believe you will find your way through because it sounds like you are taking the right steps.  Keep on going.

Please take care of yourself and those little kiddies!

[mighty mouse]

Hi El123,

I hope I don't sound too lame but have you tried "call block" on your phone?

And you can block emails so they go directly into the delete file.

I know these are just band aids..you have a serious problem. But these things helped me when I had to cut off my NPD stalker sister. She literally would invade my space at every oportunity. She then sent me snail mail which I treated like toxic waste and shredded immediately.

Have you thought about physically moving so that it would be easier for your H to resist? About 3000 miles away sounds almost right. But even that might not help if H doesn't have the resolve to do the above. Actually, what I did worked very well. I HAD to kick sis out of my life because she was destructive. But I had the understanding and resolve to do it. It may or may not work for you.

Again, this is just something you can try. And I would screen any calls before picking up the phone and have H get in the habit as well. Heck you can take the phone off the hook as well and get a cell phone for emergencies. Or change your number completely. Think outside the box on this one. Your H isn't strong enough to change but maybe a lessening of temptation can help you limit the contact with BIL and MIL. Treat him like the little boy that he is......I'd take away his check book privileges as well. You seem to have one more kid than you thought. This guy is not a real partner, I hope he has redeeming qualities. Good luck to you.

MM

[Anonymous]

write, It's great to hear that things are better with you since you made your decision for you H to move out. Do you have children? How are they handling it? Just wondering because I've actually thought of this but the kids prevent me from it (thinking of how it will affect them).


yes, took my son a while to accept but everyone's a lot happier.

Really if you think about it your kids aren't old enough to have the responsibility for your marriage, that's how I looked at it. Also: do I want to be a role model for unhappy/ dysfunctional marriage for them in the future?

We still spend a lot of time together as a family and it's a lot more relaxed.

[el123]

I see your point, bunny.  But HE is the one who said that he wanted to cut them off to begin with.  Are you saying that it sounds like there's no hope here?  That there's no chance for change?  I do have an appointment with my therapist on Saturday and so does my H.

Learning,  thank you for saying it sounds like I'm taking the right steps.  I'm so confused right now that this really helps.

MM, I think I will get call block.  H would have to get it at work too, though (not sure if he can there.  He has his own office and phone but not sure if they allow it there.  I'll see about that).  Moving doesn't sound half bad and yes, I have thought of it but my daughter is in school and the other two have little friends here and all of the people I love live here so that would be worse for me I think.  Yes, he does have redeeming qualities.  That's the thing that gets me!   It would be so easy if he was a complete a*h*, ya know?  But he's not!  He took a week off of work so that I could visit my best friend in Paris.  Didn't complain about the money.  He helps with the kids.  He encourages me in my writing (I'm writing a book).  Even bought me a comfortable computer chair and carefully filed all my pages in a neat way so that I could check to see how many pages/words I had, he is so so wonderful in so many ways!  Almost everyone who meets him/knows him tells me what a nice guy he is.  And he really can be!  90 percent of the time he is a sweetheart.  And he's the father of my children and they love him and he loves them.  He helps out with them, etc.  I don't want a divorce!  I want things to work out SO BADLY!!!  I just don't know how to trust him after all of this and he's got issues from his past (but he's working on them in therapy).  I'm so confused and don't know what to do.  One minute I think that I can't stand another day with him and the next minute I just want to hug him and tell him that we'll work it out together.  He tells me that he loves me all the time.  He has never cheated on me or hurt me physically or done anything so outrageous that I could say "ok, this is it".  Now I'm rambling.  I think I need help figuring out what to do.  What is normal, what is not.  Growing up with a N mom has made me question what normal boundaries are and has given me severe trust issues.  -E

[Anonymous]

Greetings El,

I am so sorry to hear about the painful and complicated situation you are in.  It sounds so stressful.

I just wanted to add to what others observe in that your H's behavior is similar to a drunk trying to stay sober in a cocktail lounge.  He had a relapse.  No wonder he is defensive.  Better yet, it is almost like he is a crack baby who, through no fault of his own, is addicted to crack.  It is going to be a long, long road to get him off the "stuff".  

I think one of the hardest things to realize is that one really cannot change another person.  They have to want to change themselves.  This is the A#1 lesson I learned and am still learning.  It sounds like he is trying but it's going to be incredibly difficult.  Perhaps you can reward him for how long he has gone without contacting them, or allowing them to contact him??  You know, some really basic behavior modification stuff (if he is willing to go along with such a program)?  I know you wanted him off cold turkey but that may not be biologically possible.

You may want to look at your responses as well.  What can you do with your anger at a relapse besides yell at him (which would affect how honest he can be with you).  If you do not yell at him when he messes up, he can be more open.  You can express your disappointment but also find some encouragement to do better next time, perhaps.  

Perhaps I sound a little pollyanna in an incredibly abusive situation.  But try to take a step back if you can.  I hope this helps a little bit.  Hang in there.  Seeker.