Please help; hanging on by a thread

[Nic]

Hi el123,
Wanted to chime in to share with you the extent to which your dilemma can lead..the picture is not very pretty and it happened to me, recently.

What Write and Bunny have written is all absolutely spot on as responses to your situation.  You need counselling, both of you.  I am now in the process of being divorced from my wife as a direct result of N toxic/fusional relationship with my N mother and my N father.  They have been screwing up my life with their crazy making until I ended the relationship with them...
Naturally they hated my wife, which must be the position you are in now.  My parents are french ( thereby latin in culture and very dramatic!).  I get the impression from reading you and clues of them being in the restaurant industry that they could be Italian or Greek..if so we can explore how culture and its expectations and traditions can complicate or further flavour ( meant sarcastically!) family dysfunction.  
My ex wife wanted to buy a farm, actually an estate where we planned on living for the rest of our lives.  I had misgivings about this whole venture because of my parents' Nism ( which at the time I had defined without an appellation)..one night and surrounded by lawyers demanding that my parents " keep control of everything", I stormed out of the house determined not to live like that anymore.  I had had it with the control, especially with money, that my parents constantly exerted.
At home and after a heated discussion, I gave into my wife's infatuation with the property..I remember her disbelief at how absolutely rotten and controlling my N parents could be.  I warned her repeatedly that all of this was going to turn to mud..AND IT DID!  I still get very frustrated and sad, when I remember my ex-wife's self assurance when dealing with my parents...I still get very angry that while they were "nice" to her, they were talking behind her back and ruining things for her and us.  My N mother shouted at me when our conflict began how I was not the same person since I had met her and the like.  The sound of that still resonates off my neurons and drives me crazy with regret some days..
When I decided I'd had enough of " the game" I was not even willing to become an "unwilling player" even.  My mind was made up that my first loyalty was to my wife.
Many times I felt the temptation, like your husband, to remain loyal to my captors...today and after everything that has happened, I still have days like today ( today is my N father's birthday) when I want to pick up the phone and go running back to the familiar ground of dysfunction.  Thank God I won't...it is something I cannot do any longer.  I am "free" so to speak, in that I have completely severed my relationship to any of my N family.  They are living in a dreamworld, well enclosed, with its own rules..secret and silent...people..respectable well educated and sane people are unwilling to believe that my N family is that way..but I know you can.  More importantly, at this stage of the game I want to say that I believe you!
Dear girl, you are living in a terrible unhealthy environment and you must not stay there.  Your husband has slipped up by running back to them while you were away..forgive him for that and get back on track to save your marriage if you truly love/respect/are committed to each other and your children.  Break the cycle..be bold and stick to your guns.  Be willing to lose out on some level because your terrible manipulative in laws could lie and be believed about everything and anything.
If you are like my wife, although you are sane, you may find you are not fighting on your home turf. You are caught in the middle of a game, the rules of which might be familiar to you because of your own N family connection..but it is a new game you are playing.  Are you willing to bend over more than backward to remain in this game?  Is it worth it to you to spend the rest of your life catering to them or else?.....
My ex wife thought she was strong...I am happy that throughout the struggle I stayed on course with her, but my N parents' constant attacks literally drove her crazy.  I kept telling her, especially near the end when all was lost ( as a result of a very N slander campaign!) let's just salvage what we can and get away from these people, i've lived this all my life, I know these people...she wouldn't listen.  
On my side, that is in my own desperation and loneliness,  I found myself unable to cope any longer with the power struggle going on between my parents and her.  It's very complicated to explain, as in all fucked up relationships there are many twists and turns...but the end result of being married to a guy like me and your husband IS...it's not YOUR fault.  Deal with what you can, keep it sane, keep it honest and REFUSE to play the game.  Ultimatums at this stage of the game are a 50/50 gamble, I would suggest that you do not use them, because you have made a deal to cut them out of your life.  It was terribly difficult for me to "abandon" my N family but I realized I had to ...and I am still today committed to this..despite my wife not being there any longer.
To an extent I am a victim of N destructive parenting...but in truth I was a willing and an unwilling participant until I saw that leaving them once and for all was the only option.
It is imperative that you save yourself and your children. Thank God I had none with my wife.
One day, your husband might realize like me that truth and peace will be found in his admitting that he is hooked on a very toxic relationship with his N family.  The outcome of his breaking free from all that will be a life that truly belongs to him.  Some things in life are worth fighting for..there will be an awful lot of pain involved in your breaking away from this madness but you (pl.) must.
At one point in everyone's life I believe it becomes impossible in fact unliveable to run away from the truth..
wish I could write more but I have to go...
Much love and comprehension,
Nic
NB// please not my signature hereunder...

[Anonymous]

I see your point, bunny.  But HE is the one who said that he wanted to cut them off to begin with.  Are you saying that it sounds like there's no hope here?  That there's no chance for change?  I do have an appointment with my therapist on Saturday and so does my H.

Learning,  thank you for saying it sounds like I'm taking the right steps.  I'm so confused right now that this really helps.

MM, I think I will get call block.  H would have to get it at work too, though (not sure if he can there.  He has his own office and phone but not sure if they allow it there.  I'll see about that).  Moving doesn't sound half bad and yes, I have thought of it but my daughter is in school and the other two have little friends here and all of the people I love live here so that would be worse for me I think.  Yes, he does have redeeming qualities.  That's the thing that gets me!   It would be so easy if he was a complete a*h*, ya know?  But he's not!  He took a week off of work so that I could visit my best friend in Paris.  Didn't complain about the money.  He helps with the kids.  He encourages me in my writing (I'm writing a book).  Even bought me a comfortable computer chair and carefully filed all my pages in a neat way so that I could check to see how many pages/words I had, he is so so wonderful in so many ways!  Almost everyone who meets him/knows him tells me what a nice guy he is.  And he really can be!  90 percent of the time he is a sweetheart.  And he's the father of my children and they love him and he loves them.  He helps out with them, etc.  I don't want a divorce!  I want things to work out SO BADLY!!!  I just don't know how to trust him after all of this and he's got issues from his past (but he's working on them in therapy).  I'm so confused and don't know what to do.  One minute I think that I can't stand another day with him and the next minute I just want to hug him and tell him that we'll work it out together.  He tells me that he loves me all the time.  He has never cheated on me or hurt me physically or done anything so outrageous that I could say "ok, this is it".  Now I'm rambling.  I think I need help figuring out what to do.  What is normal, what is not.  Growing up with a N mom has made me question what normal boundaries are and has given me severe trust issues.  -E

[Anonymous]

I see your point, bunny.  But HE is the one who said that he wanted to cut them off to begin with.  Are you saying that it sounds like there's no hope here?  That there's no chance for change?  I do have an appointment with my therapist on Saturday and so does my H.

Can you talk to the therapist(s) on the phone before Saturday? This is an emergency.

It doesn't make it more viable if it was your husband's idea. And if his idea was to cut them off cold turkey, it was bound to fail. He would need *massive* support and professional assistance to get through even a few days without his mother and brother. He'd have to see a therapist very often and be able to phone the therapist. He might need to go to CODA (codependency) 12-step meetings so he could have support every day. I expect this would last for at least a year, maybe longer. There is no quick solution here.

If you don't want to divorce him, then I suggest intensive marriage counseling and individual therapy, as often as you can manage it. As someone else wisely said, his mother/brother are like a drug. He has expressed an intention of kicking the drug but that's a far cry from being able to do it.

bunny

[el123]

seeker,  thanks for the encouraging words.  I can really relate to what you say about my H being like an addict.  That's exactly what it feels like.  I know that I cannot change him, that he has to want to change.  He says that he does.  Has even entered into therapy in order to do this.  I'm so glad that you wrote that I may want to look at my own reactions too.  I do get extremely angry when he backtracks.  He tells me that he didn't tell me that his BIL called because he was afraid of my reaction.  And, you're right, I didn't respond very well.  I got really angry and then we got into a fight and I cried myself to sleep on the couch.  This helps.  Thanks

Nic,  Yes you are right.  We are both in counseling.  Your situation sounds unbelieveably painful and I'm glad to hear that you have come through it healthier than ever.  There seem to be a few differences in our stories My MIL had come to really like me.  In fact, said that I was her 'best friend' and so did my BIL.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that my BIL has had romantic feelings for me.  Other people even said they thought it seemed that way too (not that anything would ever come of it, though).  In hindsight I realize that I was probably just a great source of supply.    Also my H knows that his mom and brother are toxic.  He does fall in their manipulative traps but at the same time knows and says that he just needs to avoid them.  He tells both me and our therapist this and means it.  Are you saying that you think that there's no hope in this?  I know that I cannot change him but he has made dramatic improvements.  I want to focus on the improvements but when a slip up happens, I freak.  -E

[el123]

Something that I did not mention before was when H's brother called, and told my H to call his mother my H did call her.  But when he spoke to her he told her in no uncertain terms that he wanted space from her and from his brother.  It wasn't just a social call to shoot the s**t.  He used it as an opportunity to set some type of boundaries with her which she and BIL cannot seem to respect.

Bunny, yes I guess I could call my therapist before Saturday.  You are right that this is very important.  

I know that I probably sound very flighty and that's cause it's how I feel.  My feelings keep changing on this.  -E

[Nic]

Hi el,
No i'm not saying that your situation is hopeless, absolutely not!  We obviously don't have the same twists and turns..as this moves along though anything could happen because it is a "core" event.  It touches the center of both your lives and the pressure of breaking free from such relationships can become literally unbearable.  A situation such as yours and mine will bring you to the very core of who you both are.  It's a toughy and I wish both of you the strength and fortitude to deal with all the aspects.  Above all, it is a situation requiring tons of patience.
I'm happy that your inlaws though of you as their best friend etc., my ex wife was quite admired also until it was thought that everything could be blamed on her..she was the stranger.
I can't describe to you how terrible misguided loyalty feels.  My Nparents had expectations of me that went far beyond the reasonable..it is something that one feels because it almost never is verbally expressed.
Again, Bunny is correct in encouraging you to be intensely counselled during this period.  Dealing with someone else's mental illness is very difficult..your N in-laws have no clue that what they are doing is morally illegal!
Stick to the truth, as best as you can conceive and understand it.
Yes it is difficult to cut off your family.  I've seen many therapists prescribe this very medicine to their patients with varying results, most of them very positive.  You have one life to live and It's YOurs!
The circumstances you are in and I am in are very unusual! What you are living is NOT normal, very few people beyond your therapist and a few close friends can understand what is going on let alone conceive of it.  It's important to get out of it in a healthy way, even if you could lose your home etc.
Very few Ns realize that their actions will inevitably come back to haunt them.  they are to be pitied in that sense.  In the meantime though, I would suggest you do everything you can to save yourselves even if it hurts.  It will be better ultimately..
sorry if i somehow implied that things were hopeless, it wasn't my intention.
Nic

[Anonymous]

Something that I did not mention before was when H's brother called, and told my H to call his mother my H did call her.  But when he spoke to her he told her in no uncertain terms that he wanted space from her and from his brother.  It wasn't just a social call to shoot the s**t.  He used it as an opportunity to set some type of boundaries with her which she and BIL cannot seem to respect.

If he called her to set boundaries, that is still not going cold turkey.  In fact, he crossed his own boundary right there. It's more like a relationship addict finding "reasons" to call their partner, even to scream at them or argue just to hear their voice.

I urge you to call your therapist tomorrow because you could use some grounding and support.

bunny

[el123]

Nic,  I guess what I was asking when I asked if things were hopeless is can a situation like mine ever 'work'?  Can we ever have a healthy enough relationship to continue it or is divorce usually the ultimate end?  I just want things to work out so badly.  It's so hard when some of my own needs go unmet, though.  but regardless, I still want to be married to him.  I love him and my kids do as well.  I'll do whatever it takes to try at least.  My therapist thinks that we can work things through.  But what do you think?  I really value your opinion since you have been through this.

bunny,

If he called her to set boundaries, that is still not going cold turkey. In fact, he crossed his own boundary right there. It's more like a relationship addict finding "reasons" to call their partner, even to scream at them or argue just to hear their voice.

I know he still didn't go 'cold turkey' but I think that it was more the other way around here.  It was the N's in his life that found a reason to call him in order to hear his voice.  My H didn't even call his mother on mother's day so he's not finding excuses to call them.  They are the ones unable to accept his boundaries.  He merely took the bait.  I spoke to him last night about this and he said that he gave in and answered the phone when his brother called because his N brother kept calling him (without him answering) so he thought that it might be an 'emergency' (I know, I know).  This one particular time he said that he just grabbed the phone without even thinking of it.  I know that he still should not have answered it but I do have to say that he truly doesn't want contact with his N family right now.  It's his N brother and N mother that are having the difficulty respecting his boundaries.  I know that it still is not ideal.  I don't need to be convinced of that.  And I'll see what I can do with my therapist.  -E

[Learning]

Hi El,

I am so, so sorry this is happening to you.  I am glad that you and your husband our in therapy and that you are voicing your issues here at this forum.  There are many people here that are so knowledgable and supportive.

Your desire to stay with your husband makes sense to me.  I would also try every avenue possible to make it work for the children.  As a mother, I am always considering their welfare.  One thing I have learned about myself and my relationship with them is that if I am distraught, I am unable to fully meet their emotional needs.  I have recently stopped speaking with my parents because I see how they affect me and how that detracts from my ability to be the mother I want to be.  I wonder if the emotional drama you are experiencing with your H is creating a similar situation for you?  Please forgive me if I am overstepping my bounds here.

Another thought I have had regarding your children is the financial welfare of the family.  Mighty Mouse has mentioned taking the checkbook away from your husband, and I think that sounds like a good idea.  He has not been responsible with your (yours and his) money.  You need a home to take care of your children.  It is also in the family's best interest to keep your credit rating positive.  It is not fair to you or your children that he is taking risks with these things.  Since he seems unable to keep his boundaries with his M and B (at this time), maybe you should control all the finances.

El-these are just ideas.  I am not in your situation.  I really hope this all works out for you.

Bless You,

[write]

what I was asking when I asked if things were hopeless is can a situation like mine ever 'work'? Can we ever have a healthy enough relationship to continue it or is divorce usually the ultimate end? I just want things to work out so badly. It's so hard when some of my own needs go unmet, though. but regardless, I still want to be married to him. I love him and my kids do as well. I'll do whatever it takes to try at least. My therapist thinks that we can work things through.

can your situation work?
- well it's not working now is it, so something needs to change.
I'm not getting divorced, but neither am I going to live with h.

Why not mentally separate yourself from your marriage and your children, to you the person you are without these considerations? Can you still do that? What do you think then?

I despair when I hear therapists proscribing outcomes ( assuming this is what they said, not what you heard )
A therapist can't possibly know whether you can 'work things through' or what is the best outcome, only facilitate your working that out for yourself.

( by the way I've noticed that there are a number of dodgy counsellors here in the US where religion features in the therapy and there's pressure to preserve the 'sanctity of marriage' or a definition of 'the family' )

I would NEVER put myself in couple counselling with anyone who hadn't already done personal therapy on their own issues; joint therapy can put a lot of pressure on the partner of someone who's really screwed up.

If you have a chaotic unreliable partner/ extended family that's 'crazy-making' enough, without it extending into therapy.

[Anonymous]

Let me put it into a few nutshells:

(1) Between your H and his family there are no boundaries. He would like to have boundaries, but he doesn't yet have them. It takes months or years of practice to develop the boundaries required here.  You can muse about who crossed the boundary first during your holiday, but the bottom line is that there are no boundaries.

(2) Your husband is massively ambivalent about whether he wants to cut off these people. Sometimes he definitely wants to. Other times he wants to return to them. It would be unrealistic not to see his ambivalence here.

(3) Taking what people say and do at face value is going to slow down progress in repairing the marriage. Your husband will say a lot of things that are contradictory or else what you want to hear. Then you'll be "shocked" when he does the opposite of what he said. If you realize that he is regressed a lot of the time, his words are just a mask of adult competency. You might be observant of when he or you are regressing into a child-like state. And you want to see things metaphorically rather than literally. For instance, the BIL is a millionaire but expects H to pay bills. This is symbolic of the BIL's feeling of emotional impoverishment, regression, helplessness, no boundaries, and a bunch of other things. When you understand the symbols, things won't seem so confusing.

(4) The reason your H can't help you when you're upset is that he regresses instantly and feels helpless, angry, resentful, and frightened (traumatized). It's not that he doesn't care. He just goes into survival mode. He is actually creating a boundary the only way he can! This is bad for a marriage, and the therapist must work on this. But it's not all about him. This is also in my marriage and we've been working on it for *years*. It's not an overnight fix.

(5) If you love your H, things can get better if you'll invest in the therapy time and expense. And you need a competent therapist, one who doesn't advise cutting off a family cold turkey. Because that is an easy suggestion that you could get from anyone on the street. I'm assuming the therapist made an error, they can make mistakes like anyone else.

bunny

[el123]

New day, new emotions.  I feel that I need to clarify myself.  Yesterday I was completely distraught, jet lagged and still in the emotions of the fight from the night before.  Today I feel more clear headed and realized that I may have misrepresented my situation somewhat.  I have to say that when MIL and BIL did most of the damage (when 1st child was born, yelling, stuff that I wrote of in the initial post) was about 10 years ago.  Especially when my H worked for his mom (He was attending school at the time as well).  He now does not work for his mother.  He has not worked for her for over 6 years.  He has a good job/ salary, etc. He's a computer architect (I'm sorry but I forgot who asked this).  But at that time he was financially dependent somewhat on his mother as she was also his boss.  Also, my MIL used to not like me so much but eventually began to like me and then, the past couple of years, I was what she considered her "best friend".   Also, my H and his family are of Asian origin and family dynamics are culturally different and play a role in this dynamic I believe.  

Ok, now to a few months ago.  My BIL somehow convinced my H that he did not have enough to pay their M what he owed.  He told my H that his money was all tied up and that he needed help (big lie but he's a master manipulator).  He told my H that if my H didn't help him out by paying the bills that their M would have no food, etc.  Basically guilted my H into it.  Yes, my H should have seen the lie and yes, probably his dysfunction prevented him.  Anyways, my H told his B that he did not want to pay and apparently they got into a huge fight over it but my H reluctantly DID pay.  He kept the info from me.  When I found out about it, I freaked out and my H got into a big blow out with his B telling him that he never wanted to speak to him again and he would not give another cent towards it.    After this incident, my H decided there was a big problem (lightbulb went off in his head).  This situation in a way was a blessing in disguise as it made my H see how dysfunctional his family really was.  Before this he wasn't quite as clear about it.  He put himself in therapy, didn't talk to his family for almost two months and made dramatic improvements.  HE decided, ON HIS OWN, to cut his family off cold turkey.  The therapist said that he thought it was the correct path for him.  The therapist did not order him to do it.  I cannot stress this point enough, my H, through his own free will, decided to cut out his family cold turkey.  

 What happened while I way away in France last week was the first time he had spoken to his B or M in almost 2 months.  That was big for my H. He ADMITS that he shouldn't have done it and does not want to speak to them.  He is not unlike a lot of others on this board who are having a tough time cutting off the N's in their lives.  

He has improved SIGNIFICANTLY with the enmeshment within his family of origin.  He never, ever lets them say anything remotely negative about me or the kids.  A long time ago, he would not have done this.  He has improved a lot.  

How is he different from others on this board who are trying to cut out unhealthy N's from their lives?  His boundaries have improved significantly with his B and M.  BTW, he may post here.  He really recognizes that he has problems and is actively working on them.

Learning, write, and bunny, thank you so much for your kind and thought provoking input.  I think that I will control the checkbook from now on.   Great idea.  And yes, bunny I recognize the dysfunction that he has when he regresses when I'm upset.  He recognizes this as well.  This is one of the things he is presently working on in therapy.  I know it will take a long time and may even be impossible.  But I feel that I need to give it everything I've got.  Maybe I'm naive, stupid, completely a fool.  I don't know.  But again I feel the need to ask how he is unlike many on this board who have trouble cutting out N's from their lives?    I would write more but I need to run for now.  -E

[el123]

Forgot to add that our therapist did encourage H to cut his family out cold turkey and that he doesn't usually advise this but it was after H himself decided to do this.  He was not swayed to do this.  -E

[Anonymous]

E,

Okay. Your husband wants to cut them off but he had a slip . So it may be a simple matter of forgiveness and finding better strategies to prevent any  further entry into your home by phone, email or letter. If you can think of other practical measures to guard your home and assets, good idea.

bunny

[el123]

bunny,  so glad that you wrote this.  For you to say this means a lot as I feel as though we've gone around in circles with my confusing postings and I apologize for that.  I know that my H is trying and improving significantly.  I freak when I think that things may go back to where they were.  I also have major trust issues so any type of dishonesty on H's part makes me crazy.  Ironically, because of my reaction, it's harder for him to be honest about certain things.  Take care, -E