Fundamentalist religious background

[Ellie]

I have seen some reference from other posters to parents telling them to pray about it...

I was raised in a fundamentalist religious household where everything revolved around church and bible.  I am the rebel and didn't buy into it enough according to my parents. No matter how involved in church I was, I was never good enough to go to heaven. They kept telling me they were still praying for my soul because I wasn't going to heaven if I didn't attend their church and think just like them.

I ended up teaching in church and a church-run school until I got thrown out because I would not bow down to their demands enough. I was never quite sure what would be enough, because I thought I was following all the rules and in my heart, I have a very deep seeded belief. Today I no longer believe in organized religions because of mistreatment.

I am wondering how many others find a pattern to the N behavior and the religious upbringing.

[write]

you might find http://www.pressiechurch.org/Theol_2/narcissism_goes_to_church.htm interesting.

I personally believe it is misguided for anyone to tell another how to find god ( or other manifestation of spirituality ) or to claim there is any 'one true path' to enlightenment; there are potentially as many gods as there are people.

For a npd a church setting will offer many opportunities for grandiosity and pomposity, and who can argue with the argument 'God says...'

I turned against traditional religions many years ago, but found my own spirituality and a church where I can express it: Unitarian Universalism.

I'm sure strict religious upbringing often has a part in npd, religious parents can often be cold, unresponsive and narrow-minded, lacking compassion.

I've heard beliefs postulated by otherwise seemingly intelligent people that oral sex, masturbation and homosexuality are all sinful...because it's what they've been taught in church by someone who enjoys wielding power over people.

[Anonymous]

I feel the same way. I was raised Catholic, but  in name only. Though I did go to classes on Saturdays, we went to Church, I was confirmed, etc. etc., none of that had any meaning when my parents were making complete asses of themselves. My mother is an N and my father is N and probably bi-polar as well. Now he has been "reborn" and has alienated his second wife by accusing her adult son of being gay even though he's married and isn't. He'll talk about how Jon is a sinner and his wife should know, never mind the fact that he has absolutely no proof of this other than "people at church tell him". He hasn't even been to church in over a year. His accusations are ludicrous. He used to make us sit an watch evangelists on tv in the morning, but would turn around and bash his own mother and children verbally. He loved scamming people out of money, especially his customers. He's a jerk in every sense of the word.

My Nmother has recently converted to Lutheran from Catholic and felt completely entitled to have the pastor give her a walk because she throws so many parties and functions for them. She's about as righteous as my idiot father. Her only reason for playing in church is to impress others.

I consider myself a spiritual person and am very happy with my beliefs and relationship with God. As far as organized religion goes, I'll be damned if I'm going to jump in the same boat as these two jokers.

[Anonymous]

Greetings everyone,

Well, I have many responses to add here.  It's something I think about a lot.

First, let me tell you I am a PK (preacher's kid).  Now what does that tell you?  Either I am a full-on rebel who should be burned at the stake, or I am a completely brainwashed, braindead cult devotee.  I think I fell into the last category for the longest time, eating up everything I heard because I (still) am very idealistic by nature.  

But I now separate organized religion (a very human construct, and, I suppose, a necessary one for some) from spirituality.  I accept many people who are hypocrites as God's children too, who, like me, are doing the best they can.  I just don't hang out with them.  It is a very human thing to emphasize belonging over believing.  My simple way of rebelling is to "keep my eyes on the prize" that is, live by the principles that are taught in every major religion and actively keep a relationship going with spirit (God).  

Ellie, there is a book by a famous rabbi (Harold Ruskin?) entitled "How Good Do We Have to Be?"  The title alone helped me.  God doesn't insist on perfection.  I also find readings about the early church to be very enlightening and encouraging, since it was informal and was directed to the disenfranchised, not the entrenched Pharissees who wanted to run everything.  Sound familiar?  I also have trouble with church folks who issue orders vs. invitations.  So backward.  

Also for Ellie, you will find your observation about N in church validated by none other than M. Scott Peck in People of the Lie.  He finds that religion is a haven for Ns.  No one can argue with God.  There is also a terrific book called The Spirituality of Imperfection by the folks who started AA.  There is a phrase they use to keep perspective:  "not-God".  It's like they have to remind themselves actively that they are NOT GOD, they do NOT control everything and that's OK.  This is huge.  So I take it that being in a religious setting, it would be very easy to forget that one is a messenger or conduit for spirituality and not God Himself.  

Again I have to tell myself that I can't change this.  I can just focus on my own path to God.  Thanks for bringing up this meaty topic.  Seeker

[Learning]

There is a phrase they use to keep perspective: "not-God". It's like they have to remind themselves actively that they are NOT GOD, they do NOT control everything and that's OK.

Seeker, that is perfect.  It really sums it up.  I believe we are put here on earth to learn, therefore if we already knew everything...we wouldn't be here.

[mighty mouse]

Ellie,

Hi.

The rabbi who wrote the book (seeker post) has the last name Kushnir. And I have read "People of Lie" as well. It's an interesting book.

Seeker brings up the AA - not god. I used to go to Coda meetings and they emphasized the same principle.

I find my NMom becoming more emeshed in the church every year. She always says she's praying for me (praying for me to be Nsupply once again I'm sure). And my NPD sister thinks she's very spiritual - always talking Dali Lama and likes to spout Bhuddist sayings as well....I elucidated more about her on another thread (very vitriolic emailer and stalker).

I think this is a very fascinating subject.

MM

[Less]

I am reading a book right now written by one of Canada's most respected theologians, Tom Harpur. -Rhodes scholar, former Anglican priest, Professor of Greek and New Testament  Studies at the University of Toronto.  The book is called "The Pagan Christ."  

"As he reconsiders a lifetime of worship and study, Harpur reveals a cosmic faith based on ancient truths that the modern church has renounced. His message is clear: our blind faith in literalism is killing Christianity...long before the advent of Jesus Christ, the Egyptians and other peoples believed in the coming of a messiah, a madonna and her child , a virgin birth and the incarnation of the spiriit in flesh. The early Christian church accepted these ancient truths as the very tenets of Christianity but disavowed their origins. What began as a universal belief system based on Myth and Allegory became instead a ritualistic institution headed by ultraconservative literalists."

The premise of his book is that  the early Christian Church made a "fatal and fateful error."  "Either deliberately or in a competitive bid to win over the greatest numbers of the largely unlettered masses or through wilful ignorance of the true inner sense of the profound spiritual wisdom it had inherited from so many ancient sources, the Church took a literalist popularized historical approach to sublime truth. What was preserved in the amber of allegory, it misrepresented as plodding fact."


He draws on the teachings of many of the earth's religions present and past  and teases out the common threads and roots.

Tom Harpur, in perhaps true Canadian style (or so people say) apologizes  if he has offended any Christians but gives encouragement to them to expand their understanding.

Well it's hard to capture the essence of this book in a couple of paragraphs but it really is fascinating.  Less

[mighty mouse]

Hi Les(s),

I'm going to read the book you mentioned. It sounds great. I read a book about 5 years ago by a Bishop John Spong entitled "Christianity Must Change or Die". It dealt with literal translations of the bible as well.

I think it would be interesting to get another perspective, especially one written by a Canadian! You guys up there are just so great. When my H and I visit Canada, everyone knows how to pronounce our last name. In the U.S. it gets mangled all the time even though it's not really a hard name at all. What can I say....I just love Canadians....except the Ns. LOL

MM

[Less]

Hi MM, Keep me posted (so to speak) on getting/reading the book. It's actually more profound than I managed to convey here. I found learning about paganism(a word for some that has such neg. associations) and the earliest rumblings of religion in the world so illuminating.-  Don't think you'll be disappointed.

Sidebar - as people of all countries do - Canadians like to think they are a bit different!   IF Canadians are a little different the speculation is that it was the way the nation was born - fairly peaceful, full of compromise and advancing the values of  community and lawfulness more than individual freedom. Who knows, maybe the vast cold wilderness defines us more than anything.  Many of our writers think so. Anyway, great to hear you like us and hope you like the book. By the way--you were great yesterday - going into battle with me - Do you own a red cape by any chance?!  
Les(S)

[mastercubb@comcast.net]

Les(s),

Howdy from Texas.

I checked out the book and can only get it on Amazon.com Canada. I've bookmarked my calender in August to check back so I can get it in the U.S. (cheaper shipping). I read a whole lot (seems you do too judging by your post on another thread), so I have to save any way I can.

Your assessments of Canada are right on IMO. I especially like the observation about the cold and wilderness. I do so like your country and people. I used to have friends in Allison (sp), Ontario.

I'm glad I was helping you "save the day" (LOL) yesterday. And you should keep the red cape as a visual even though I don't have one, ha. ha. I DO have a red duvet cover...guess that's not quite the same.

How is the 91 year old mama perfectamente (throwing in some Spanish)?
At her fighting best or about to croak (in her opinion of course)? I hope that didn't sound too rude. Will you miss her if she does (croak)?

MM

[mighty mouse]

Less,

Just wanted to add that Tom Hapur is very prolific!

MM

[Less]

My apologies to you Ellie for appropriating your thread here to answer MM -not sure how or where else to respond. Looks like a lot of threads weave in and out of different topics so maybe it's ok.

Funny you should ask the question - do I think I will miss HER.  Funny because up until this week I have begged the cosmic forces to take her NOW! My anger and violent fantasies have really scared me at times.   New headline: ''Quiet middle-aged woman goes beserk. Kills mother in most hideous way. Neighbours say they can't imagine how this gentle ordinary person could do such a thing. Co-workers are shocked.  However, husband says he's not surprised and plans to visit his wife regularly at the nearby facility for the criminally insane. One punk grandchild says the pyschopathic bitch had it coming. (I hope the RCMP aren't swarming my door as I write)

But yesterday was different, still bizarre, teeth grindingly difficult but manageable.  I held my ground for one thing.  And I even felt some compassion for her.  For example, I was helping her swipe her bank card and put in her PIN number ( like helping a baracuda) and I asked her what not wearing glasses was about (she can't see the screen) She thought about it and then with her oh so charming wink and grin she said,"Perfect baby syndrome." This may be one of the only times she has appeared to have any insight into herself. (On the other hand maybe not!) She has also started to turn some of the perfectionist anger that spewed my way back on herself.  Instead of calling me stupid, moron etc she will direct it at herself - "Come on stupid!" if she can't get her seat belt off instantly. or find the right card in her wallet (who can) For awhile now I have been telling her it's ok, there is time, take it easy. As an older woman she can't accept any diminishment in her abilities. Talk about raging against the dying of the light.  Let me see, What was the question? I think I will sprout wings when she's gone but I can see too that the rare moments of normalcy that we have had may haunt me somehow.  And how about you?
You may have already addressed this question in other posts but I'd be interested to know how you feel about it in your case. Les(s)

[mighty mouse]

Ellie,

I too am sorry about co-opting the thread.

Les(s),

To answer your very last question, I'm not sure if I will miss my Mom. I don't really miss her now. For a long time I missed what I'd needed her to be and wanted her to be.....that was my mourning.

Like Bunny said on another post, some people just need to be gone already. Sounds harsh to say, but sometimes I feel like Sidney Poitier in "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner". He said something to the effect of needing to get the dead weight of his father's generation off his back (paraphrasing). I'd like that as well. It's not that I don't like older people in general, I just don't like Ns in particular.

Your post was so funny. You could probably write a sitcom based on your Mom's absurdity. But it must be hard to get old also. My Mom is only 75 and it looks like she'll bedevil us all to a ripe age (just out of meaness). It seems like the mean ones always live to ripe old ages.

MM

[Less]

MM

 Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if N's live a long time - no guilt, no remorse, no self doubt - the stuff that chews other people up.  I still need to read up on it all - maybe there is something very destructive going on inside - I think I caught a glimmer of that with my mother. It must be a very tight little box to sit in - always having to do everything just right, always needing someone to blame, not being able to take ownership of the smallest "mistakes."

Here's one example I imagine many can relate too! Two years ago my mother was still driving. One day the Super of her apt. asked her to move her car a bit because the wheels were on the yellow line dividing her spot from the next. My mother was in a rage for days. The only possible explanation for the "parking problem" was that some teenaged boys had broken into the garage and taken her car out for a joy ride and then returned it. Or perhaps I had forgotten to tell her that I borrowed her car. (never have) She called management, security and made a right royal fuss. It was inconceivable that SHE - Perfect One could have done this.  Good grief and it is the same for absolutely everything.

I'm afraid  it will only get worse as she ages."I gave you that form and you put it in your purse!!!!" she said hotly last week.  "Ok mother that may be but why don't we just look in your desk too." It's very taxing having to be involved in this game of protecting her dignity at all costs - like dealing with a 3 year old really.

Your comment about missing what you needed her to be- absolutely.  I think I was always trying to find that in my mother's craziness. When I gave up I felt much better.  Do you ever get anything close to normal mothering? A sympathetic phone call maybe? I gather you live a long way away.

"bedevil us  all to a ripe age...just out of meaness" - reminds me of the story about a woman in France who told her nephew he could have her house when she died but not before (I may have some of the details wrong) Well she lived to be 117 or so - it would seem to keep him from getting the house.  Nephew died first.  Ah me.

I'm burbling on here. Ciao for now. Less

[yuki]

(sorry, coming into the thread late) My N mom had a lot of chaos about religion when I was little.

She was very religious but my dad was very against religion. The attitudes were very strange. She'd tell me about all of the things that good Christians had to do, but then she'd say that my father didn't approve so we couldn't let him know about it. She'd take me off to church every Sunday with a quiet resentment of him while he stayed home. I always got the impression that he thought we were stupid for being religious - but my mom probablly encouraged me to believe that about him. This was just one of the ways in which she forced me to pick her side over his.

She wasn't really a spiritual person either. She used religion as an excuse to be very strict and controlling with me and to forbid me things (music, make-up, clothes - the kinds of things little girls like - they were all "bad"). It ended up back firing on her in a way... I got something positive and spiritual out of going to church. Just as I was starting to really connect with the spiritual aspect of it and to some people at church (I was in my pre-teens then)... she renounced religion entirely.

I can't help thinking that she did it to stop me from getting something positive in my life. The reason that she gave was, well, basically to blame the church for a lot of her problems. She said that she'd only stayed with my dad because that's what the religion said was the right thing to do, so she was blaming the church for not helping her get away from my dad in the past. (and yet, even when she was free from the church, she never left him) She is still against religion. I've even heard her complain about just the thought of going to church (when visiting relatives who attend church regularly).... and I was thinking... wait, YOU made ME go to church with you for years, even though it was putting extra stress on me because my other parent didn't approve!

I think she must have borderline personality disorder too because of her sudden switch about religion.