Does the N ever receive HER just deserts?

[Clueless]

Donīt you think that being condemned to a life of unreality and unhappiness is a pretty hard thing to bear? A human being must have been deprived of waaaaay too much before s/he becomes what s/he becomes. I recently left my partner of four years because I could see that I was hurting him. Iīve been told for sooooooo many years that I have no feelings that now I believe it. I believe myself to be a cancer to other human beings and so I stay away from them as much as possible. Is that right? If you really believe that she feels no pain then you are fooling yourself. Iīm almost certain that sheīs in constant pain. Joy, warmth, companionship, fulfillment - these are the things that make life worth living. To believe that you will never be good enough - as I do despite what people may think to the contrary - is a horrible fate. YOU are the lucky one in this equation... I hope I donīt sound hostile, but have pity for her. just my two cents

[Anonymous]

Clueless,

The fact that you can cognitively comprehend how others are affected by you makes me believe that you can learn how to be a contributing factor in a relationship.

I just so happen to be in a relationship with a N.  I am not going to sit here and try to make everyone think that it is an easy path to travel on because actually it is quite the contrary.  We dated for two years when he abruptly ended the relationship.  After I searched the globe all over to try to find an answer to the many questions that were filling my head, I stumbled upon N.  

After being apart for several months, I had an opportunity to talk to him and I approached him in a manner that N respond to.  I was very monotone, I didnt let my emotions run the conversation.  I stated that I believed he was a N and I gave him a little bit of how I perceived him to fit into this personality disorder.  Upon researching N he also came to the same conclusion.  He has made tremendous progress and to hear his perception of the world and to know the pain he has suffered in silence over the years was a big learning experience for both him and I.

As I mentioned before, this road has not been an easy one to travel but I will tell you this much, unconditional love is excepting those you love for who they are.  It is not a free ticket to abuse those you love, it is a chance to be loved for who you truly are.  I think that when I presented that opportunity to him, for the first time in his life, he felt he was truly loved and accepted despite his flaws.  I am all for giving a person a second a second chance to prove they are worthy.  I do not believe in repeated mistakes over and over again.  As long as he continues to be aware of those who surrounds him, he continues to see the world through a different set of eyes.

There have been times he has reverted back to his ways.  I remain firm on what I will and will not tolerate and he continues to climb his way back up after he falls.  

Just the fact that you could write what you did shows to me that you are not so far gone that you cant find your way back.  Peace and tranquility is the reward you shall receive.  Wouldnt you love to silence those deamons inside your head and your soul??

[sonia]

Hi Clueless,

Sorry for being a dolt, but I need some clarity. Are you saying you are Narcissist?

Sonia

[Clueless]

Hi guest,

Nice to hear from you. I donīt know how to put the pieces back together, but I know that the fact that other people have told me I have no feelings since the age of 14 ( I am now 29) has really made me afraid of relationships. My mother died when I was 14 and a load of other sh!t happened. I always try to WARN people (even before I heard of N) to stay away from me, and lots STILL come into my life. & yrs ago had a major breakdown and ever since then self esteem SO LOW avoided friends, pretty much gave up on life (Also constantly exhausted etc.) Iīm now SO frightened of myself and the abuse I inflict Iīve pretty much given up all my friends. My ex made me feel xtremely scared cause he looked at me with SO MUCH LOVE. Iīm scared scared scared to trust anymore... but I wanna live, and love, and BE HAPPY and human if I can be, but itīs a long road. At the mo Iīm in a kind of " if this then that phase" and itīs awful... but Iīm gonna get help, and Iīve learned a lot and I hope I make up some of the damage some day...

Good luck with your partner, heīs a lucky guy. And take care of yourself too. Thanks so much for writing to me, it means a lot.

[Clueless]

Hi sonia,

Iīve not been diagnosed as an N, but as dissociative, but what Iīve been thru and heard makes me believe Iīm an N anyway.

Since my mum died 16 yrs ago people Iīve met have constantly told me that I have no emotions. Itīs true that I find emotional ties extremely hard to maintain, I have low self esteem at the moment (major breakdown 6 yrs ago) and I withdrew from almost everyone cause I was so scared of what happened. I couldnīt hear my ex cause I was too scared to get close. If he said sīthing nice Iīd get annoyed cause felt I wasnīt good enuogh for my own standards, but what he thought didnīt count as it were. The thing is I left him because I was being indescribably cruel to him because I canīt feel properly. But if you think I donīt feel pain... I do. Everytime he looked at me with love in his eyes I was in pain because I knew I could only hurt him - by being defensive, by ignoring him, by being unhappy. I know I loved him because I used up all my energy trying to block him out (NOT consciously!) It literally made me tired! So just remember, everyone feels pain, somewhere, and try not to be too harsh. Nīs know what they are and they know what theyīre missing and they know that their  lives are hell.

[sonia]

So just remember, everyone feels pain, somewhere, and try not to be too harsh. Nīs know what they are and they know what theyīre missing and they know that their lives are hell.

Sorry Clueless,

I'm not of the opinion that Ns have that much awareness. Or at least an awareness that they can change. That's what's so frustrating. My NPD sister can acknowledge that she's extremely selfish and self absorbsed, but seems to have no wish to change. If it's that painful, why not at least wish to change? In fact she stubbornly refuses to make any changes except in her appearance which is superficial.

Can anyone else weigh in on this?

Sonia

[Portia]

Dear Clueless, you are not an N. I have pity and feel bad for Ns. I don't blame them for their disorders. But you are not an N.

From what I've read, Ns are created in the first two years of life, not at the age of 14. If you were a real NPD person, you wouldn't even 'know' it properly. You don't sound anything like an N. You sound like you have a life ahead of you. And if you want to argue with me, go ahead, you won't hurt me, whatever you say. This is an anonymous message board. So you don't have to worry about hurting anyone who appears to try and get close to you, because we can't. Does that make sense?

[Anastasia]

Jaded, you always spit it out just like it is.  Good take on all.
Do Narcissists get theirs?  They are miserable, tortured people, so what do you think?  Who else but someone that feels very, very badly about themselves would have to use their children and significant others as whipping boys?  
Of course, that is little comfort to those of us who were "victims," but that's the way it is.
It is up to each of us to protect our own mental health.  And, once you are an adult, you have to take care of yourself--a narcissist can't and won't help you at all as they are too sick to even help themselves.  Just read this board where there are dozens of examples of that one.

[sonia]

From what I've read, Ns are created in the first two years of life, not at the age of 14

Actually I've read that  narcissistic injury can occur up to a much later date - up to the teens. My sister had something that happened to her at 15 that I beleive set her course as an N. And then my Dad got sick and that made it worse. But of course I'm not an expert.

Sonia

[Clueless]

Hey Sonia,

Took years for me to even acknowledge that I was selfish. I thought if I gave people everything they wanted that was the same as love. What do they want from me I wondered? I'm nothing special... far from it. I'm good at certain things and the rest is just over sentimental nonsense from their part.

If things go wrong I just blame everything on myself, regardless of what's going on. Either I'm blameless or I'm not. I can't interact properly with people. I want to please, and I want to change, but I'm soooooo defensive it's not funny. People who love me scare me.

Now I know that my behaviour is selfish, but the hatred I feel for myself since breakdown is all consuming.... I think N's want to change, but believe there's no point in trying or something... don't know about your sister, but what I see on the subject is also pretty demoralising for those w. NPD.

Also, lot of stuff happened to me when younger. I have 5 brothers (i'm 5th child, only girl) and my oldest 2 brothers left to go to another country and family when Iwas 4 yrs. old. Best friend died at age 6, next 2 brothers left at age 7, moved house a lot, came to new country at 12, then mum died. What I mean is that I've been  aware of people saying I have no feelings since the age of 14. I do think my mum's death was just the last straw. I do remember crying when I was about 13 cause some kids were mean to me at school, so I did have some feelings until that age. Hope this isn't too confusing!

[Anonymous]

Clueless,

You have empathy for other people. This rules out NPD right off the bat. People with severe narcissism literally cannot walk a mile in someone else's shoes. They cannot imagine how another person feels, let alone care about it. Other people's feelings, to them, are merely a projection of their own needs, demands, and fantasies. I don't think you're in this category. You clearly have empathy and compassion for other people, including narcissists.

Dissociating isn't a classic sign of narcissism. It may be a sign of something else (PTSD for example) and it could be explored in therapy.

Selfishness is a very important thing in appropriate doses. People who want to be "unselfish" usually are the most selfish of all, because they drive everyone crazy by being unable to make decisions, form opinions, tell us what they want, etc. Give me a healthily selfish, assertive person any day. It's true that pathological selfishness is a big problem. I doubt you're in that category.

Being extremely defensive is a problem as you point out. But it's not a permanent condition. With good therapy, it can be diminished greatly. I used to be as prickly as a cactus before I developed more mature defenses. Now I am able to tolerate much more because I'm not as vulnerable and fearful. It's mainly about learning better ways of protecting and enforcing boundaries. It's doable.

Are you in therapy...? Sorry if you already mentioned it and I overlooked it.

bunny

[Clueless]

Oh bunny,

Do I have empathy? Sometimes people I knew used to say that I was compassionate, but if you give a helping hand or a listening ear without your whole heart is that the same thing? I'd meet people and think " hey, for some reason this person seems to like me. They keep on talking to me... and if they were going through something (parents putting on the pressure, lonely or something) I'd listen and try to help. But since my mum died I still had this feeling like " what do they really know about anything? Their parents are still alive, or their  'problems'  are trivial - if only they knew how good they have it." I wouldn't let anyone help me with my pain because I had learned not to express emotion so well that I wasn't even aware of my pain.

Since her death I've supressed all my feelings with hard work at school (top notch student) travelling, and since the breakdown with alcohol and cigarettes. I've been in therapy for 4 years, but the shrinks came up with the diagnosis of dissociation/ depersonalisation. I have a very black/white view of the world. My attitude is: if I hadn't done this, then that wouldn't have happened etc.I'm a control freak. It's also true that I have a tendency NOT to listen to others, and to believe my own opinion at all times, so maybe I'm trying to convince myself that I'm an N! But why wiould a healthy person WANT to do that?

Since the breakdown I've experienced such intense feelings of shame that I've virtually turned myself into a recluse. I just cannot communicate with people anymore. All I do is react defensively, extremely negavtively - like I said, only MY opinion counts. Even if not an N, feel extremely low. Empty. Afraid/ paranoid. Don't have one stable identity, or so it seems. I'm obsessed with the breakdown rather than continuing with my actual life.

Anyway, nice to hear from you, thanks for support/ encouragement,

clueless

[bunny]

Do I have empathy? Sometimes people I knew used to say that I was compassionate, but if you give a helping hand or a listening ear without your whole heart is that the same thing? I'd meet people and think " hey, for some reason this person seems to like me. They keep on talking to me... and if they were going through something (parents putting on the pressure, lonely or something) I'd listen and try to help. But since my mum died I still had this feeling like " what do they really know about anything? Their parents are still alive, or their  'problems'  are trivial - if only they knew how good they have it." I wouldn't let anyone help me with my pain because I had learned not to express emotion so well that I wasn't even aware of my pain.

Empathy/compassion doesn't mean you only think positive thoughts while listening. You can also feel angry and judgmental toward the person. Empathy is understanding that person's situation, even if you don't think it's as bad as they think it is. Compassion means you won't further punish them if you happen to feel resentful. You hold back and treat them respectfully instead. For me, empathy and compassion are not easy. I sometimes feel like, Yeah, yeah, cut to the chase, when they're talking. These are my own defenses against anxiety. It doesn't mean I don't have empathy or compassion. But I'm feeling anxious.

I've been in therapy for 4 years, but the shrinks came up with the diagnosis of dissociation/ depersonalisation. I have a very black/white view of the world. My attitude is: if I hadn't done this, then that wouldn't have happened etc.I'm a control freak. It's also true that I have a tendency NOT to listen to others, and to believe my own opinion at all times, so maybe I'm trying to convince myself that I'm an N! But why wiould a healthy person WANT to do that?

Maybe you're trying to hold yourself together with some rigid thoughts. If it works, keep doing it until you get the right kind of help to find a better way.
What does the diagnosis mean in terms of getting you some help? Let's say you dissociate and depersonalize. How do they work with it?

Since the breakdown I've experienced such intense feelings of shame that I've virtually turned myself into a recluse. I just cannot communicate with people anymore. All I do is react defensively, extremely negavtively - like I said, only MY opinion counts. Even if not an N, feel extremely low. Empty. Afraid/ paranoid. Don't have one stable identity, or so it seems. I'm obsessed with the breakdown rather than continuing with my actual life.?

It sounds like you'd like some better ways to deal with other people because this is no longer working too well. Although in this exchange with me, you strike me as a reasonable person.

bunny

[mighty mouse]

Gosh Clueless,

It seems like you would have seperation anxiety after losing so many people. And moving around a lot and to a new country. That's a lot of stuff to pile on. You must not have felt rooted anywhere.

Although I beleive in therapy, I do know that sometimes they get stuck in a way of thinking and can't offer anymore than they could 4-5 weeks into the process. When I was younger I had some therapy, but because my Husband's TV station kept changing hands, we always had new insurance providers. What I found by going to many therapists is that they all together gave me a better experience than just one person did.

Of course you may not want to change therapists since you've had so many changes in your life situations. But it helped me is all I'm saying.

Good luck to you on your journey.

MM

[Clueless]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all your support! I have yet another layer to add: the breakdown happened after I'd spent 5 yrs living in yet another country where I'd built up a new life. Then I came home (after a failed relationship and a lot of other stuff) only to find myself living w. a woman who could not cope w. being alone. She was extremely jealous/possessive and SHE really rammmed in the no feeling stuff - even though I'd just had a major breakdown and was confused and TIRED! Couldn't get away from her for 4 yrs., ex-boyfriend v. loving but also jealous, which scared me too. All I know is that I'm very scared of feeling what I really think I feel: when I lived with that woman she'd ignore everything I said and tell me " what was best" for me. If I said anything she didn't like she always had the " you have no feelings anyway" reply, even though I was in full blown mourning for all the friends I'd lest in England. I felt like I'd died, but she kept putting the boot in. The thing is, I believe I have some major issues, but after 4 yrs of her I didn't know which way was up anymore. Now I think I'm just like her, except that I'm the passive version to her aggressive version...

I don't know... I see other people, and they are happy and loving and I'm just negative and afraid - aarghhhh!

As for the depersonalistaion, what happens is that I have a different persona for different people, and that's something I've had for yrs. If i was in a room with my ex, my school friends and my family I'd literally go nuts. With my ex, who was very loving and kind but needing a little reassurance Inormal) I' d be overly critical, distant, dismissive. With his friends I was catatonic or extremely restless. And NEVER talked about what I was actually feeling at the time...

Wanna go back into therapy, REALLY discuss issues: first few yrs I just gave the "story" version of my life: when I was 4 this happened, when 6 this happened and btw I disn't need a breakdown/therapy cause I don't have time. I've been thru shit but now I dish it out and I don't like it...