Dr. Grossman

[Hopalong]

Lighter,
I respect you for the way you responded to Doc G's admonitions.
You're mouthy and not always respectful but I can see you taking stuff in.

I wonder if you have ever confused with being respectful with being silenced.
I have.

In this thread I think you're open, genuinely wanting to learn, nondefensive...and not dismissive.
You're still here. You accepted Doc G's warning and show curiosity about how to approach things effectively.

I knew what he meant about provocation. I think that might be a key to look at, in yourself. Has been in me at times.
Maybe you're thinking to yourself, I want to expose/bring to the light/unmask, etc., stuff that really makes me angry and victimizes other people? But then you go a step too far because your anger puts a destructive edge on it? There's kind of a recklessness about it? (Don't let me presume to understand if I'm not...correct away, please.)

I've done that in my life. I think sometimes it's been subtler, I'm neither as brave nor as...eggsy...as you.
But I have had the impulse at times to haul something out of the water and let it flap on the ice.

For me, in my life, those moments have been associated with a boundary problem. The Nthing
I mentioned on another thread a while back. Reckoning with my intrusiveness. And how shamed I felt.
And how I got past that, mostly.

It still stirs a little, sometimes.

I am wandering from your post but thank you, for showing me a new way to respond to criticism.
I think you might be showing me the difference between being chastened and being shamed.

Most of us could survive fair chastening now and then. Maybe sometimes we lose the distinction?

love
Hops

[Ami]

I think that being "whole" is simply having your OWN voice.  We have to know  how to own our OWN behavior ,only.
  If s/one offends us, we need to know HOW  to deal with that in a healthy way.   Nowhere in there is there a part about changing s/one else.
 
 

[Certain Hope]

I think there is a lot to be said for being satisfiable in discussions, even if it is to hit your neutral button and just let it be.  Turn your attention to something else.  Avoid power struggles.

Teartracks,

I appreciate all of your post and especially the above...  Yes!!

Oh, to be satisfiable! Goes right along with having a teachable spirit. Amen!

With love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

Ummmm, I realize my last post was almost impossible to make sense of... must run: )

[lighter]

Ummmmm.... thanks Hops, lol...

I think

[tayana]

Hops, that was a great post.  I think I need to read it a few times.  There's lots to learn there.

Lighter, if it helps.  I have a tendency to want to avoid conflict, so when the threads start that really upset me, I tend to go quiet and just not post.  I keep up with the thread until I can think of something to say that's helpful, but I don't rush in full tilt.  I have to take some time to process everything.  Maybe that would help, just stepping back for a little bit, thinking about what's been said and process before saying anything at all.  Does that make sense?

[Hopalong]

And if I'm condescending, SMACK me! (I think I am sometimes. I dont want that tone. Arrgggghhh. Sorry.)

I just see you as a balance of bold and reckless.

I am awed and inspired by the bold, and sometimes think the reckless can go hostile.

But I don't want to throw out the baby (Lighter's bold) because of the hostile (Lighter's reckless).

Overall I really do get what you get, see what you see, and totally understand why you just bellow about it sometimes. Probably it's worked best when you just call it as you see it, but without sarcasm or humor or "provoking."

[Save those for the threads when you're so funny I feel I can face another day! (((((Lighter)))))]

Because when you talk straightfowardly about how it feels to watch the subtle covert grooming and rallying stuff, I am very there.

Maybe it's best to assume as --I think TT-- said, that people here are generally pretty astute and probably many many are seeing the same ugly stuff and although they're not commenting, it's maybe okay that you not be the Night WatchLighter.

You're walking by calling, All is NOT Well, and maybe worrying that the newbies or vulnerables aren't seeing what's in the shadows? Or might be so love hungry that they respond like peeled oysters to the wrong people? And might be sucked in by high-volume gushposters before they see toxicity or Nness?

(Pot! Kettle! Thwack-BANG-crashclatter...sorry, just having a little scuffle in my kitchen...with mysel...OW! Toe!)

::limping away, hushing up for a change::

love to you,
Hops

[Certain Hope]

And if I'm condescending, SMACK me! (I think I am sometimes. I dont want that tone. Arrgggghhh. Sorry.)

I just see you as a balance of bold and reckless.

I am awed and inspired by the bold, and sometimes think the reckless can go hostile.

But I don't want to throw out the baby (Lighter's bold) because of the hostile (Lighter's reckless).

Overall I really do get what you get, see what you see, and totally understand why you just bellow about it sometimes. Probably it's worked best when you just call it as you see it, but without sarcasm or humor or "provoking."

[Save those for the threads when you're so funny I feel I can face another day! (((((Lighter)))))]

Because when you talk straightfowardly about how it feels to watch the subtle covert grooming and rallying stuff, I am very there.

Maybe it's best to assume as --I think TT-- said, that people here are generally pretty astute and probably many many are seeing the same ugly stuff and although they're not commenting, it's maybe okay that you not be the Night WatchLighter.

You're walking by calling, All is NOT Well, and maybe worrying that the newbies or vulnerables aren't seeing what's in the shadows? Or might be so love hungry that they respond like peeled oysters to the wrong people? And might be sucked in by high-volume gushposters before they see toxicity or Nness?

(Pot! Kettle! Thwack-BANG-crashclatter...sorry, just having a little scuffle in my kitchen...with mysel...OW! Toe!)

::limping away, hushing up for a change::

love to you,
Hops

Hops... amazing. I'm with you on all of this and through it, every step of the way, complete with bruises from that kitchen scuffle.

Your other post here, as well... smack dab on the spot.

Much love to you and grateful hugs for your sight and clear expression of that view!

Carolyn

[Lupita]

Dear, very dear Lighter, It is easy for me to see how you feel. I could tell you what to do. I cannot solve my own problems but when I see others I think I see it correctly. Of course I mgith be wrong.

I think you are looking for affirmation. You are looking fro validation. But since here we are all victims of Nism, we did not receive it so we do not know how to give it.

So, you are getting frustrated because you are not receiving the so much needed validation.

The only thing i can tell you is that your posts have been very helpful to me. Many times I come just looking for your responses. Even if I tell you that I do not have the energy to look for another job, maybe I need somebody to show me like a kindergarde child. But I do appreciate your posts and there was a time when I thought you had a degree in psychology because you were so accurate in your analysis.

I guess if you can help one person, it is worth it to stay and I really want you to stay and keep helping me even if I fight with you, it would be like the fights with my son, I fight with my son and I never sotp loving him.

So, the only thing I can tell you, please do not leave here because of another person. Do not do what I do. I need you.

God bless you.

[Certain Hope]

Bean    

You are so cool... just had to say, thank you for being yourself!

With great appreciation and love,

Carolyn

P.S.

Dear Lupita, I just saw your post to Lighter and want to tell you that your genuine sweetness touches my heart so very deeply... and I agree. Lighter, I feel the same... through any disagreement or controversy, I value you as a person and hope that you will continue to share yourself with us here.

Much love,
Carolyn

[Ami]

I am saying this for myself only. I made a vow after reading  the  Milgrim experiment that I would NOT be one of the MAJORITY  that shocked the man to death.
  If I were in Nazi Germany,I would have wanted to have been one of the FEW  that stood up. No one knows what they would actually do in these cases. What about Kitty Genovese? slavery? lynchings?
 Very few people  HAVE their voice  strong  enough to stand ALONE. That is a part of my voice that I MUST reclaim.It is crucial to me.
 A self actualized voice,by definition, CAN stand alone. I am NOT saying that I am there yet. However,holding my own voice despite tremendous pressure is certainly a character building exercise. My Grandmother was a person of character. When it is all said and done--you ARE your character.
  I must thank you for showing me that I am made of much stronger stuff than I ever realized..        Ami

[lighter]

::sigh:: I wasn't threatening to scuttle off the board unless someone peeped up and asked me to stay, lol.

I wasn't going to bring up Nazi's or Milligan experiements or shark attacks either.

I was trying to use a rational voice to dissect a problem I;ve been dealing with since before I arrived on this board..... years before I arrived.

That I encounter it here is ironic, dont'cha think?

That I'm faced with the problem of learning new skills, and adopting fresher coping strategies, goes without saying.

But learning to speak plainly, in the right way, for the rigth reason, at the right time.... there's a science to that.

If young doctors are charged with administering treatments.... and the patient screams and increases the level of his struggles..... do the doctors let him go without treatment?  Esp if he's healthy enough without?

I'd say.... yes.  Whether he was in pain or just screaming for attention.  He goes free and the doctor's aren't responsible for policing his medication or administering it against his wishes...that's a given

But..... if he leaves the hospital and goes out into the world..... if he goes into other hospitals and becomes a cook, say, on a maternity ward where hundreds of vulnerable people will become infected.... what then?

I'll quote a paragraph from an article on Typhoid Mary, as follows....

"Mary Mallon seemed a healthy woman when a health inspector knocked on her door in 1907, yet she was the cause of several typhoid outbreaks. Since Mary was the first "healthy carrier" of typhoid fever in the United States, she did not understand how someone not sick could spread disease -- so she tried to fight back."


She didn't intend to hurt anyone.... she was just trying to do what she needed to do in order to survive, no doubt. 

Even though she was told her contact in the food service industry would harm people..... she didn't believe it. 

She didn't accept it.

She fought it tooth and nail and refused to be a party to that truth..... refused.

I'm not saying I'm a doc... or that I have any answers.... I'm just sayin..... it's a puzzle.

[CB123]

The thing to "fix" in each of ourselves is the idea that we must control anything going on on the board.  That people must do and say things a different way.  That the board should be held to a higher standard than "real life."  The board is real life.  The thing to Fix is our judgment.  Not our collective judgment, but the judgment in each of our head's (if it exists) that things happening now should be a different way.  They are what they are.  I'm convinced this is the best (positive) way to look at it.


Wow, Bean.  This may be the single, most lucid comment that I've read on the conflict here. 

If there is mantra I live by any more, it is: Things Are the Way They Are. 

I know, Lighter.  I hate masks, too.  I hate it when people are wearing obvious masks and they won't take them off.  I hate it when I fall in love with someone's mask.  I hate when I have been as genuine as I know how to be, and then discover that I have my own mask. 

But things are the way they are.  I think one unhealthy thing that I do, is try to word and re-word what I am trying to say to get someone to take off their mask and be real with me.  I did this over and over in my marriage.  My motive may be good--but at the heart of it, I'm still saying that I won't be okay until I accomplish my goal in someone else's life. 

What I have to do when I get in these kinds of situations, now, is to ask myself: what do I want?  If I want the free interchange of ideas--can that happen in this situation?  Maybe it can't happen with everyone here.  Can it happen with anyone?  If there is no possibility at all of free interchange, can I be satisfied with getting something else out of the situation? 

Here's an example of a conversation I've had with myself over a particular situation:  several times in recent months someone has posted about something they are thinking and made a point of saying that they only want responses that affirm their thinking.  I've had to stop and work that through in my head.  To me, that makes even the positive responses ungenuine because there is no way of knowing whether those positive responses came from the heart, or if they came from a very short pool of acceptable responses.

I had to work through how I wanted to honor someone's else's voice and remain genuine myself.  I had to decide to not respond at all to those posts.  They became more like an online journal for the person writing them.  We all have had to hammer out our own recovery in our own way.  I can't have genuine interaction with that sort of restriction, but that might be the only thing the poster can handle at this point.

So, yeah, even here there are masks, but they may have to be in place because it's not safe to do it any other way.

Love
CB

[finding peace]

As we are all walking wounded, I have found that while it is important to stand up for yourself

It is also extremely important we are careful to watch where we stand, so as not to step on the feet of others and cause them pain.

There are a lot of people learning to stand for themselves here, including me.

There will be times, as we are learning to stand tall for ourselves that we will step on other’s feet.  When this happens, it is very important to step back and realize that they are learning to stand tall for themselves as well.  It is also important that we acknowledge the pain we have caused – not by saying I didn’t mean it that way, you are not seeing it right, but by saying I am sorry.  I did not mean to hurt your toes.  

I also believe, that we be careful that in standing tall for ourselves, we don't use others as props to help us stand, as that defeats the purpose.  And, if you inadvertently step on someone’s toes, the person who is propping you up, is also likely to get hurt as everyone falls down.

Much love to you all,
Peace

[finding peace]

Hi Lupita – very wise words there – no offense taken here.

Tay – I hope you don’t leave the board.  You have a great voice and I hear you loud and clear.

So much wisdom in this thread – I am awed, it is a beautiful, amazing thing.  I think if newbies were scared off – I am hoping that this thread will show them the wisdom that is waiting with open arms here.  Awed.

***********************

Hi Lighter,

I hear and see the dilemma.

It reminds me of the hardware store story, but with a little twist (gonna use a jewelry store cause unlike my husband I am rather more fond of jewelry):   

I can go into the jewelry store, again and again, and ask for a ruby ring only to be told that they don’t carry it - even though I know it is there. 

I can try and get their attention, any way I can - banging on the counter, throwing things, talking sweetly, walking on eggshells, but in the end, can I force the jewelry store to sell me a ruby ring?  Not unless they are willing.

Am I worried about others going into the jewelry store only to be rejected too?  Yep.

Can I stand in front of the store and warn people that as much as they might try, they will not be sold a ruby ring even though it is there in plain daylight?  Yes, but 10 to 1, human nature being what it is, they will go in anyway.

Can I be there waiting outside to help pick the person up when they have been thrown out of the store?  You bet.

Can I sit, sadly, on the sidelines knowing in my heart of hearts it is not the jewelry store’s fault for not selling me a ring because if they could do better they would?  You bet (but with sadness).

Can I hope and pray that the jewelry store will see and find that ring (for themselves) that I know is there?  Yes.

Can I be there for the jewelry store in celebration, gladness, happiness, and joy if/when they find it.  Absolutely.  Because I was once a jewelry store too, maybe not in the same way, but I definitely had some lost gems in my stock room (still searching for more).

I understand the frustration.  I do.  But, sometimes, we can't fix it, and have to let go of the outcome (learned that here).

This place reminds me of the ocean.  Sometimes all is calm and serene.  Sometimes it is a hurricane at sea.  Swimming in this particular ocean, I have gained strength during both the calm times and the hurricanes.   There is learning here - in all weather.

Much love,
Peace