Dr. Grossman

[reallyME]

I am handing Lighter some Pepto Bismol for all that "burping"

[lighter]

I am handing Lighter some Pepto Bismol for all that "burping"

Pepto doesn't help and there's more than just air involved


Honeybaked Turkey breast with blackbean salasa and Mango lime chutney..... Oy.

ps... I know you'll enjoy that post, Hops; )

[Overcomer]

I guess there are a couple things I notice here when conflicts arise.  I think sarcasm and innuendo are used to make people feel stupid.  I have done it and I apologise.  It seems easier than point blank telling someone you do NOT agree with them.  I also think a general rule should be that if you would not say something to someone if we were all sitting in a circle, then you should not say it in cyberspace.  Also if we were sitting in that circle there would not be any PMs going on.

[Leah]

((((((( Peace ))))))

with respect and admiration

as for me, I felt like that * kid *

Love, Leah

[CB123]

It seems easier than point blank telling someone you do NOT agree with them.

Kelly, I think that the reason a lot of us use veiled comments, or sarcasm, or humor, or whatever, is out of fear.  We can hide behind those tactics if the criticism isnt well received--and with N's, it never is.

Lighter, I don't let this kind of thing blow past me because I am trying to keep peace.  I let them blow past because I already am at peace.  I let it blow past because I don't want to trade the peace that I have for agitation about the opinion of someone who has not proved themself a friend to me. 

I am very, very sensitive to the comments of people who are close to me and who have earned my trust.  A Nazi comment from someone that close would cut me off at the knees.  But I have lots of people in my life that I trust, and none of them have ever said anything like that about me.  A comment like that from someone who neither knows me or cares about me is, ultimately, not worth giving up my peace over.

However, its not fair to ignore that kind of stuff when it is directed at someone else--as this was against you.  And I am sorry that I let it blow past me.  I think that I thought it would bounce off you the same way.  There are all kinds of NC--you are grappling with the impossibility of going NC with people that you interact with every day, that you HAVE to interact with every day.  I have done more of that than I have the actual, physical NC.  What I have found is that there is an inner NC where you don't let someone in who has proved themselves abusive.  They can walk past you--you can even have a conversation with them--but they are not allowed into a place where their opinion of you determines anything about how you see yourself.

Yes--you are seeing reality: the grooming, and all the rest.  It is really there.  You are not imagining it.  The current cast of characters who are doing it have simply replaced the last cast of characters who did it.  You have seen it on the playground, in the sorority, in the PTA, in your family....and here.  And you will see it again.  It will flourish in PM land.  It always has. 

It's ugly but it is wearing a cloak of pretty respectability.  And it won't go away. And you will never understand it, because you arent part of it.  The only people who really GET it are the ones who are participating.  So you can try to look at it from every angle, but you arent going to get it.  I don't get it either--but I don't really want to.

It's not the comfort and serenity of the gaslighters that is in question here.  They will create their own comfort out of chaos because that's what they do.  It's YOUR comfort and serenity.  It CAN'T depend on understanding these dynamics.  To truly understand them, you have to be part of them.  And you aren't.

Love you muchly, Lighter,
CB

[Ami]

I do not agree with you CB,  but the great thing about the board is that we ALL have our voices 
    Ami                 

[Ami]

Consensus(numbers) does not EQUAL "rightness'----------just a thought.                     Ami

[JanetLG]

People who do not like/understand humour, tend to think it is an unfair way of approaching a topic. They often say that it is a fearful, defensive way to deal with a subject. And on this thread, it has been said that those who use humour 'wouldn't use it if we were face to face'.

Erm...how do you know that? Perhaps you think that because you wouldn't?

You may not, but I do, sometimes. It's how I communicate. It's not out of fear, but out of frustration, usually.

Other people like to tackle every topic by bringing religion into it.

If one approach is tolerated on the forum, and the other isn't, then that seems unfair, to me.


Lighter - your post #86 is incredibly insightful, but doesn't stand a chance of being dealt with, IMO. People who have brought this problem up before, have left, in the end, out of frustration that nothing here changes. You shouldn't be in danger of being banned for telling the truth (i.e. the problem) as you see it. But don't hold your breath for anything to change - too many people want things to stay just as they are...

Janet

[lighter]

Long Rant Warning.....  addressed to CB  (hi CB)  ::waving::

Please know that rants have lives of their own..... I love ya CB..... nothing personal but I was reading your post when it started so.... here goes:

the Nazi reference.......

the lynching, murdering mob, attacking a minority reference......

the shark comments.....

they DID bounce off me.

And I'm pretending scary stuff bounces off me in 3-d world, all the time.  It's part of what makes it possible for me to be preyed upon so efficiently.  But it prevents blood from getting in the water.... the smell of blood makes me more vulernable and I know this.  You wanna talk about a difficult catch 22, lol!?!?!?!?

What's bothersome about it is... and I know this is repetition but..... I read enough repetive trip here that I might get away with it for moment?

That Ami's free to roil and burn her way over the board bc I'm stoic or unfazed?  

The board's serenity isn't unfazed and it's certainly not dependant on my NOT MAKING WAVES, though it sometimes appears that I'm scapegoated in that direction

And it seems to just be accepted that she'll behave that way..... she's got a hall pass and that's that.  ::shrug::

::ticking off on fingers::  I find it escalates conflict.

I interpret it as predatory on THIS forum.

Ami's comments bouncing off me don't mean she should be free to use tactics I seriously would be hefted off the board for, and I would expect to be.  Dr. G knows what he'd do to me if I name called inflammatory untrue preposterouse..... eh....  he wouldn't give me a third warning.  

If I look at intentions.... I still don't come up with any reasons why I'm called on my posts and Ami's left to her innapropriate responses, aside from MY RESPONSES TO HER, which don't include the inflammatory roiling around scream of the wounded victim.

::BIG breath::

It's easy to hurt strong people..... less discomfort for those who have to do something about a situation.  It's always been easier, I see it in the court system.  I see it in my family.    

Dismissing victims is so much more comfortable than dealing with the perpetrators... and I don't use these words lightly, nor am I referring to myself as a victim.

Now,  I'm moved to thoughts about victims identifying with their abusers...... so we're back to what do you do with a victim that goes on to victimize..... pathalogical or not?

How do you treat them?  

I'M NOT INTERESTED IN TREATING THEM!

I just want to know how to RESPOND to them and their behavior so that my WAVES aren't perceived to be the problem and I get dismissed, then chastised then banned

In all worlds, 3-d and cyber.

Just because Typhoid Mary couldn't understand that she was harming/injuring/killing people on that maternity ward..... does that mean she's allowed to continue?  

I see.... I perceive.... I interpret this behavior as predatory, no matter what the intentions are.  

The intentions aren't relevant, IMO.  Heh.... the opinion of an INFP.  

I'm frustrated that I see something, lots of people see it, I suppose even Dr. G sees it but there's no apparent approrpiate way to deal with it.  

HOW CAN THAT BE!?!?!?

We're allowed to identify our 3-d grievances ad nauseum here.... but I'm beginning to understand/feel/interpret that we may not be honest about each other on the board, esp if something egregious is taking place.  

The elephant in the room is sitting on people but
SILENCE!  

Eyes down?  

Quit noticing???!

For God's sake don't point it out.... quit staring.

If you say something you get the very familiar N response and it works!  

Holy shit it's a very effective artform and it has a voice and it gets away with murder and it eats... ::crunch crunch crunch::
 (I know you don't understand Hope,but I'm rolling so no time to explain the crunchcrunch, K?)

::Speaking in proper uptight school marm voice::  I spy anti social behavior at work on the board.....

Very well!  Right here under our noses!  And it's a lesson for me bc if we can't learn to overtly identify it here..... we're not going to be able to do it in our 3-d lives.

We'd best just circle the wagons and head for cover.  Be silent and be scared...... pretend we're confused and make minimal eye contact with those who see the reality with us.  What the hell, let's teach our children to be silent and scared too, since they learn from watching us, eh?

I see that here....

I see it.... ::shaking head::

we assume everyone has an N on their backs in 3-D world but..... you'd best not identify one HERE>  

Nope nope nope.

Here..... N tactics thrive, convolute, confuse and twist knots into the board,

for all the lessons we've been learning, all the coping strategies and comminication tools we're adopting......


::wandering if I've completely confused everyone again with what they think are my intentions and thoughts::

there isn't dick we've learned about overt identififcation and labeling so that we can all cleanly say.... "It is what it is" and go on about our business with less strife cause we don't allow it HERE.  We have some clean clear way of providing CLARITY with minimal bloodshed

Dramatic but, I'm on a roll.....

It's not PC to lable.  (But we do it all the time about people who aren't here!)

We're not qualified to dx anyone. (yet we do it here all the time in reference to people who aren't here!)

We accept each others insights, feelings and thoughts as long as it's in the abstract and not concrete and to my way of thinking more than a handful of people have admitted they see things exactly the way I do but.....

"Lighter had best learn to be silent and not speak her mind all the time ::nod::... there are lessons she has to learn about that."

Yup yup yup.

"Lighter makes waves and that's so destructive to board serenity...::nod::  Everyone can agree on this."

"Lighter makes funny threads and statements that pretty much hit the nail on the head...... Oh dear, best remove that as it's inflammatory and attacking....."


And here comes some sarcasm.... so hold on to your boots, folks:

As opposed to her being called a Nazi, having a mob mentality that would lynch a brown man and being a shark.


::board murmering:: She should really take lessons on being judicial with her tongue....::nod::


yes yes yes... I see it very very clearly ::board murmering:: Lighter's so disruptive, we should really teach her to communicate better, we should show her how to voice her opinions with silence....

And that..... is what I call ironic

Being taught to be silent, on an emotional survival message board that is supposed to teach people how to use their voices, lol.

It doesn't.

It teaches us how to identify abuse and go NC.

It may teach us a bit about how NOT go crazy in the case of NOT BEING ABLE TO GO NC..... we're understood and sympathized with, given words of encouragement.....

And I've really depended on those words don't get me wrong I'm here bc I've been kept sane by this board but.....

I don't believe it's here to give us our voices back anymore.  Maybe in future relationships with healthier people... but... not with the N's or the whatever lable you want to choose.

It teaches us coping strategies for dealing with the INSANITY we experience when dealing with people who do

improbable

nonsensical

unbelievable

self destructive

chaotic

things TO us.

I don't believe Ami is trying to heal,  

I think she's here to continue doing what she does cause it makes her feel better.

For for whatever reason, and like CB said, I won't ever be able to make sense of it, so glad I;ve given up hope of that in all areas of my life.

It makes me feel better to research learn and grow.... to reach out and help people if I can, and that might include throwing a red flag, calling something the way I see it or drawing attention to a pattern of abuse that's as plain as the nose on my face by now.

If nobody gets a badge for being helpful.... why would they get one for being destructive?

Makes no sense ::shaking head::  I guess this is what Mud meant by keeping my nose out of the lives of people who've experienced FOO abuse.

Dr. Grossman..... I think you went into this field bc your own family was dysfunction and you wanted to figure it out.

I took that from your general post to the board, not directed to me, no hard feelings.

I don't think you've figured out how to deal with the Cluster B people either.

I guess there is no way to deal with them..... you just get rolled around by them and survive.

I came a great long way in my life, overcoming and moving beyond, BECAUSE nobody could hold me ransom.... nobody could leverage me.... I was able to take myself out of a situation and just go.  

I KNOW HOW TO DO THAT!


What I don't know how to do is navigate the world when someone I love, something I love, is being held hostage.

The RANSOM, I pay, is my silence....... my ability to keep my trap shut.

Never mind my learning to use my voice, lol.... ::slapping knee::

Ya know.... here's another bit of ironic humor.....

Sam Vaknin explains how to live with an N in his book, you know the one.

He pretty much lays out how to subjugate yourself, stifle yourself, pimp yourself..... lol......

and I got the irony, I got his sarcasm... I did...as upset as I was when I was reading it I got it...... no laughter but I identified it and here I am..... realizing that blunt, horrible, sarcastic sick Sam knew all along what's taken me this long to figure out.

There IS NO SANE ACCEPTABLE WAY TO RESPOND TO IT, LIVE WITH IT OR PLAY DRESS UP DOLL MAKEBELIEVEABOUTIT!

Ami's free to go about her destructive business of making herself feel better.....

All the N's are free bc we look insane and make waves when we point out irrational nutsey rocksey koo koo crazy behavior and we'd better get used to just shaking our heads and clucking our tongues..... try to feel serene about it.

Ummmm..... like I said.... I didn't come all this way.... well into my 30's, to be held hostage here and for always and ever in my 3-d life.

DAMNIT!


And yet.... here I am.... learning to play the game and becoming so much darker and manipulative and sneaky and GOOD at it.

My sister was the kid who snuck up on the cookies, took one on the sly and scurried away to enjoy it unnoticed.

I was the twin that dodey dodied up to the plate,  reached up and took a cookie, bit it and smiled at the adults around me.

It's not that I'm learning that I'm wrong or flawed or dirty or human.....

it's that

I'm

learning



how





to






pretend






destructive,






scapegoating,







gaslighting





people.......




AREN'T.






And if it doesn't kill this INFP...... so help me if I live through it (dramatic eh, lol?)



I'll let'cha know how it works out for me.



ahem..... Provided I'm allowed back on the board or someone keeps in touch through regular e mail.

[lighter]

I guess there are a couple things I notice here when conflicts arise.  I think sarcasm and innuendo are used to make people feel stupid.  I have done it and I apologise.  It seems easier than point blank telling someone you do NOT agree with them.  I also think a general rule should be that if you would not say something to someone if we were all sitting in a circle, then you should not say it in cyberspace.  Also if we were sitting in that circle there would not be any PMs going on.

So..... just wanna get this straight....

antisocial behavior on the board...... if done with a belly up don't hurt me sweety sweet feighned helpful posture.....

is good.

Poiinting out the antisocial bahevior....


in any way, particularly the last breaths of frustration breathing life into the argument with on target witty responses full of sarcasm....

Bad.

I guess the old saying "Don't shoot the messenger" has a very good reason for having been penned

[reallyME]

As I'm reading this post I'm saying to myself, so I'm saying to you all...has MY behavior been antisocial toward anyone here.  I certainly hope not.  That would break my heart to know that I was perceived that way.  I consider myself to really be a people-person and I enjoy people a lot of the time.  Please, feel free to let me know if this label of antisocialite fits me in some way.  I welcome any perceptions of me.

~Laura

[lighter]

::hugging Laura::

[JanetLG]

lighter,

I completely agree with you again.  (Oh, how embarrassing ::eating hat:

This situation reminds me so much of just before authentic gave up on the forum. She kept pointing out what was dysfunctional about it, and no-one wanted to hear.


Janet

[Certain Hope]

To my mind, it's quite simple:

Heeding the warnings of this forum's owner is good.
Defying those warnings is bad.

Carolyn

[lighter]

lighter,

I completely agree with you again.  (Oh, how embarrassing ::eating hat:

This situation reminds me so much of just before authentic gave up on the forum. She kept pointing out what was dysfunctional about it, and no-one wanted to hear.


Janet

Ummmm, Jane, lol.

According to Ami.... I'm was Auth's main reason for complain, lol. 

And yes.... it does remind me a lot of that conflict.