Author Topic: Frustration  (Read 8874 times)

Iphi

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2007, 10:29:16 AM »
Hops in light of the fruitful ongoing conversation between Lupita and Observer, whatever possibly undisclosed past that poster may or may not be trailing around behind her, what in the world made you prioritize your inquiries over their discussion right now? 

As Leah has already mentioned, their conversation has already rendered great inspiration, motivation and new learning for Lupita, assisting her in ways that no one else has been able to.  I'm saying that, whatever else you may suspect about Observer is very marginal and tertiary compared to the important and relevant aid she was providing in that conversation.  Additionally, however rude, irascible and immoderate Observer's reaction may have been - she was still engaged in a fruitful dialog with Lupita. 

Next time, I hope that as a person with a conscience you will weigh the pros and cons between the manifest benefit to others, on the one hand, and your own need to know, on the other, and save it for an actual issue in the here and now instead of a vague and nebulous possible something of the there and then or the when and where?  It's just not important here whether you are right or not about Observer.  I couldn't give a toss whether Observer has been around here before, but I do care very much that Lupita is making such progress.

Also, Lupita is a brave and accomplished adult woman and not in need of chaperonage whilst conducting a public conversation.  Would that such a consideration had been placed in the weighing of the balance.

Personally, I am not at all taken aback that on the internet there are anonymous posters and posters who pop up under different names or that they might come around at any time.  though it is amusing that an anonymous poster will come proclaim how dire it all is with the implication that the unaware sheep are munching grass while the storm gathers.  What drama!
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Hopalong

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2007, 11:20:24 AM »
Points taken.
I think you're right. Thanks (oof), Iphi. Clear light of morning.
I think I was being invasive and meddlesome and trying to control something.

I did feel uneasy, but maybe that's my problem. I guess if I had the strong serenity-boundaries I talk about, I would've let it go.
In (mild) defense, I think it may have had something to do with recent activity on the board, as Leah described. But still.

Maybe there was subterranean jealousy I wasn't owning. I am not sure.
(Inspecting navel, removing lint.) And intuition can be over-rated (nope, never heard from Anon., but that's okay, don't need to.)

So I apologize to you, Observer. I have preferences about how we greet and treat each other but that scrutiny ought to include the railroad tie in my own eyeball. And you're right, I don't own the place. I am sorry. You are engaging and supporting Lupita very generously and it was wrong of me to assume anything nefarious without clearer reason.

Please accept my apology, and I hope you have a good vacation.
I don't understand who you are yet, but you must have your reasons.
I will get to know you when you're ready to share.

And thank you for the paper chaos taming suggestion. It's a good one.

With sherrif's badge back in the cereal box,

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Iphi

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2007, 12:43:28 PM »

Thank you Hops for your non-reactive response.  I'm only human too and an ACON to boot, with lots of work to do on my communication skills.

Further to that thought, I think it is eminently understandable that a pack of ACONs have a lack of practice, even a lack of working knowledge, even a lack or recognition, of the benefits of, diplomacy and mending disputes and letting things go.  I, for one, never learned that at home.   I recognize it as a real deficit in myself.  In short, I suck at it.  I also recognize it as a real deficit in lots of people here.  No doubt we will continue to find that we suck at it.

I also think we all have trouble surrendering our trained-in desperate survival desire to attempt to make things safe, even things (perhaps especially things) that you can't take the risk out of.  So let's all wear our helmets and just continue to try.

With that disclaimer, and the further disclaimer that I was an English major and continue to proof and edit for clarity and best expression in my current job, I propose to you this edit in your otherwise forthcoming and well written apology:

"You are engaging and supporting Lupita very generously and it was wrong of me to assume anything nefarious without clearer any reason."

I think that will go over much better.  Imo, qualifying language does not go over well in apologies.

Now if only every self-appointed sherriff would get wise and surrender their cereal box badges, we could let our hair down, eat popcorn and paint our toenails.  Mud first.  Will it be green sparkles or purple iridescence?
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Hopalong

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2007, 01:55:48 PM »
Oh dang. Iphi, I believe you. For an apology to work best it is better for it to be unequivocal.
I am trying to walk a rope covered with peanut butter. I am no saint. I'm just...quivocal.

I do want to apologize to anyone upset by my post, and especially Lupita. And Observer. How do I know why Observer wants it this way? To be someone "new", to break continuity, to not really be known? Just to be a voice in Lupita's ear? Eeek. See the dilemma...I want to be compassionate to Observer's need to be who s/he wants to be. Okay, that's my want. But my innards are having another reaction. It's not black and white. I am feeling a mix of motives. And maybe I'm MISSING Observer! Maybe I don't even know who I'm missing! Oy, confusion.

I do not want to discount my intuition that Observer is a previous poster. Which may or not equal Up To No Good. It may be some issue that's private to Observer about previous self-disclosure. I really don't know. And as you say, there's no rule or promise here that folks won't do that. That it makes me uneasy is a personal issue, not a board issue (I tried to make it one, and I am sorry I did). As you say, though, that's just the nature of the world, and of this microcosm. Maybe it doesn't bother others else, and I did have the option to note and observe my unease in silence. The personal serenity goal would be not to be bothered enough about it to hop into someone else's thread and pot-stir. Oiks. I flunked.

(Not that Observer is up to anything nefarious. Personally, I'm ill at ease when people seem to want to know and "direct" others in an intimate way--particularly others who've stated they're feeling needy as Lupita just did--but it's all one-way, they do not want to be known themselves. Even though anyone, particularly on the Net, has every right to be cloaked, in this board context where people are wounded, it sets off my lack-of-reciprocity and/or boundary alarms. Probably because I have a history of such wounds and problems myself -- so eager for any affection or attention that I never noticed that I was disclosing like crazy, sharing my vulnerability and loneliness and neediness like mad, and the person who was cheering me on and making such intimate assurances had told me literally nothing about themself. Unless they were really cruel to me later. I also have had times in the past when I was invasive. Err, maybe also in the present. UGH. Aha. So it does come from my experience. Maybe I'm unconsciously identifying with something in Observer that's got my id wiggly.)

I wanted to apologize to own up to wanting to control things, and acting sherrify. And being rude to Observer, and disrupting a conversation that was helpful to Lupita. It was NOMB, and I did intrude.

But if I changed it to "without any reason" rather than "without clearer reason" I'd be saying I had no reason at all for it happening in the first place.

Random as my brain can be, there was reason. (Doesn't mean a good reason or an objectively accurate one, but that in my brain, there was a reason.) It was fallible intuition, unprovable, and I think your most important point was...unecessary. I could have chosen not to stick my nose in. And I could also have chosen not to cast doubt on Observer's character. Which is rude and unwelcoming. My character isn't perfect by a long shot. I had tried a softer invite for Observer to be more open but that hadn't worked. Not sure why I decided to be the self-appointed "Introduce yourself before advising Lupita so powerfully" bossypants. In part, I was feeling protective of Lupita. And as you say, that may be inappropriate. "feeling protective" doesn't mean that Lupita needed my protection, and it's even sort of condescending. (I'm sorry, Lupita.) Maybe Observer's got nothing murky whatsoever mixed in with the desire to be nice to Lupita. That's perfectly possible and I was too quick to judge. I'm a nosy-noisy bystander in this instance.

Still, had to apologize as I did, because otherwise I would've been completely cancelling out my own flash of intuition. I can't take it back because: a) I already stirred the pot, and b) because between me myself and I, although my intuition's fallible, when it's signalling persistently I have promised myself to at least not discount it completely. (Have to apologize once the horse has broken through the barn wall though. Nothing else I can do.)

So in considering your response in particular, I am modifying my overconfidence in my intuition but not discarding the whole enchilada so as to still be respectful of myself. I can apologize for a behavioral thing, if not a reasoning thing, and reconsider things in the best possible light I can.

Thanks, Iphi. I know this was convoluted. And I have worked it to death.

Again, Lupita and Observer, I apologize for interrupting. If either of you want to start a fresh thread to continue your conversation, that would be great. I promise you I will not intrude there at all.

Gasp, wore myself out and probably bored and annoyed everybody else.
(BTW, your point about the unrealistic desire to create perfect safety--including asking for reciprocal disclosure--is spot on. All one can do is ask for what one wants, and let go of the outcome. IOW, not try to control everything. Heist on me own petard.)

Hops
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 02:27:42 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Iphi

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2007, 03:06:59 PM »
 (((hops))) it's the same for me too.  And I'm sorry to be all 'hey' when you are having a challenging week.  And remember our context - it is the dreaded holiday season.  What I'm trying to say - as far as you and me - is  I have the same feelings - we have the same background.  Many of us on this board are working the same issues and their ramifications and it seems like these very issues trip us up, especially when they go unrecognized and unclaimed. 
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

lighter

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2007, 04:11:41 PM »
Hello Observer,

You are giving Lupita such a tremendous amount of attention and intense motherly affection. And speaking her language too! It must feel wonderful to her to be the recipient of your intimate concern. And she is the only person you have spoken to here.

It's a little confusing, to hear this grand voice, focused so intently on Lupita alone, but not acknowledging anyone else. I apologize for this, but I am willing to be wrong: I am wondering if you have been here before under another name and do not want to be honest about that.

I might be oversensitive and feeling protective of the board, but something feels unsafe in this exchange. I tend to have intuitive skill at recognizing familiar voices, in the subtle shades of language. But it's not infallible.

That is why I am checking it out with you openly, because I may be mistaken. If I am wrong, you can of course say so. And I will be glad to apologize.

I remember asking you two questions a little while back, but you never responded:

1) would you like to tell us a little about yourself?

2) have you ever posted on the board under another name?

I am looking forward to learning about you. I hope you will respond. If you do not, then my unease is confirmed, and I will remove my nose from this dialogue and just tend to my own boundaries. I hope there is not something deceptive going on.

(Sorry, Lupita. You need and deserve much support and attention. I know this may be upsetting to you, and if you are angry with me for my concern, I won't blame you at all.)

Hops
[/b][/b]



Hops.... you asked for more information from this poster on at least one other occassion.

You were ignored, which is Observer's right.

By the same token, you have the right to feel safe and ask questions on the board without being accused as pretender to the throne, in an attempt to shame and punish you.

I felt Observer's response was drastically over the top, considering the tone of your questions and post, which I  provided here for reference.

Please don't feel guilty for asking questions and trusting your instincts. 

You quite clearly exprssed gratitude, layed out your concerns and asked for clarification, which I didn't find innapropriate.

Observer's hostile response, however, struck me as very innapropriate.

You have a right to feel safe here.

Fortunately, you don't need anyone's approval to use your voice.

Giving yourself permission ... is enough.

Lighter

Leah

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2007, 04:20:25 PM »

Sad really, as I thought Iphi and Hops engaged wonderfully well between them, as two voicing mature adults.

Now, I just don't know what to think, really.

Leah

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April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

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reallyME

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2007, 04:41:35 PM »
specific details all aside, I'm sitting here wondering WHAT DOES IT MATTER WHO POSTS WHAT TO WHOM?  Why are people so concerned about this stuff.  I don't get it, Hops.  I don't get it at all.  Why is it so important to you about whom Observer talks to and why is it so crucial that Observer remains anonymous.  Helllllllllllllllllllo, this is a computer chat board.  Yes, there are real people here...people who are behind a screen, hold NO POWER over you whatsoever, can't decide what you do or don't do, hold no rule-making power against you.  I just am not getting why some people on this board are so hung up on this stuff.  please enlighten me.

Ugh

~Laura

Leah

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2007, 05:00:04 PM »
Dear Laura,

Sad really, now, as I felt that Iphi and Hops had engaged wonderfully well between them, as two voicing mature adults, and that it was all resolved.  Having realized and acknowledged that Observer only ever posted good stuff, which I received much from, the intelligent clearly written informative posts, with articles, signposting to good sites and a book.  All of which, we could all clearly * see * evidently benefited Lupita, on Lupita's own thread, to which Lupita was engaging with, and enjoying.  I feel sure others (guests) too, as myself, enjoyed the context and content also.

Observer may have a busy life, not able to sit and type much, who gives a lot of time, with understanding, in the postings. 

Observer registered as a member, after much talk about guests posting.  Observer explained time restraints, and tiredness, and also greeted everyone with seasonal greetings.   The person, Observer, obviously wanted to post to Lupita last night due to going away for a holiday for a couple of weeks, so as to not leave Lupita wondering.  And included much encouragement, and further valuable intelligent information.

Lupita is an intelligent, wise woman, of maturity and is well able to look out for herself, as she does, evidently, here on the board, which is all to the good and to the credit of her, as a mature adult human being.

Maybe, Observer, the person, does not feel comfortable in sharing, divulging, personal private matters, at this point in time?  Now, we won't know in any case, as Observer has said that they are no longer going to post onto the board.  So Lupita loses out, as will others too.

Observer posting, has been okay with me, given what I * see * in the postings made on the board, which have only had good intentions.  My hope is that, Observer posts again, after holiday break.

No one here on this board ever "fails me" as I am not here for a therapist or a carer, but rather, I am here as an independent mature woman with my voice for a voice on a voicelessness board.

Leah
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 07:43:40 PM by LeahsRainbow »
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

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Hopalong

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2007, 05:02:54 PM »
It's okay, RM.
I take your point.
Don't want to re-stir and I don't think I can enlighten you any better.
And sorry for the confusion, Leah.

thanks,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Leah

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2007, 05:14:25 PM »
Dear Hops,

Rest assured, I don't feel any confusion, none at all, only clarity.

Love, Leah
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Hopalong

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2007, 05:33:06 PM »
I understand, Leah.
As I've tried to say in several different ways, I'm sorry I broke up a conversation that may have been beneficial to Lupita and/or Observer.

I hope they'll talk again on a new thread.

I think I've made all the amends I can.
I'm sorry it distressed you.

love
Hops
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 11:22:11 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

finding peace

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2007, 10:03:22 PM »
Hi Observer,

Just wanted to say that I am not clear on what is going on here.  :?

In all honesty, I was shocked by what you wrote:

Quote
Hops:  you are poison and toxic.  I read your post again and see how jealous you are.  And what a hypocrite, saying you want peace on the board and then subtly spewing your venom.  I pity your daughter.
Quote

You seem so stable and on target with what you post to Lupita, and yet to say something, which IMO is so very cruel? I don't understand.  Were you triggered by Hops? 

Frankly, I thought that if you didn't want to reply, a simple response such as the following would suffice:  “I appreciate your concern for Lupita Hops, especially given the recent board conflict, but at this time I am not willing to answer your questions.  Perhaps in time I will be more forthcoming.  If Lupita or anyone else prefers that I don’t post to them without having more information about me, then I will gladly refrain from posting.  Please let me know.”

Mostly, I am concerned for Lupita.  She does not need any more hurt or upheaval, she has had more than her share I think. 

From another observer who is very concerned by this exchange, 
Peace
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 10:54:28 PM by finding peace »
- Life is a journey not a destination

lighter

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2007, 02:56:02 AM »
Just a terrible punishing response that was intended to shame and blame Hops for having instincts at all, much less voicing them.

And it took some time to pen them too :?

Leah

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Re: Frustration
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2007, 06:32:25 AM »
I understand, Leah.
As I've tried to say in several different ways, I'm sorry I broke up a conversation that may have been beneficial to Lupita and/or Observer.

I hope they'll talk again on a new thread.

I think I've made all the amends I can.
I'm sorry it distressed you.

love
Hops

Dear Hops,

You have no need to apologize to me, none at all, as I was not distressed.

Honestly.

Merely, voicing what I perceived to be something that was to the good for Lupita, and others maybe (incl. guests), in Observer's postings.

That's all.

Love to you, Leah
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO