N behavior but not an N

[towrite]

This has been on my mind for the past couple of days - Laura's post about reactions gave me permission (!) to post this. Thanks, Laura.

If a person continually reacts to your emotions as "she'll get over it" or "It doesn't bother me", that is discounting. If a person hurts me or disrespects me, and then treats my expression of hurt with the above comments, it's a complete discount of me.

Like Laura's #3 in her post, the other person does not see my reaction as in any way related to the way she just treated me and goes blithely on acting as though her actions and statements were just fine and my reactions are something to be ignored. So my worth, needs, feelings, and dignity are meaningless - discounted.

Am I making sense? When a good friend, who previously never exhibited this behavior, suddenly starts it, it's time for the friendship to end. And this is an N behavior, no doubt, esp. when talking to the offender about this situation produces deafness or a sudden lack of fluency in English.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

[reallyME]

I do know what you are talking about, yes, and I'm glad my post gave you a voice.  I have been on both sides of this sort of thing.  I am a type of person who feels that many people are way too "touchy" about things and I do tend to think the "get over it" stuff.  I have also come across people who have told me "oh it wasn't what I said, it was just your PERCEPTION of it" in order to discount my feelings.  Neither being the perpetrator or the victim of this is good, but as of yet, the only remedy I have for not feeling "get over it" is to stay away from overly-touchy people.  Learning to not take people's invalidations or projections to heart, helps on the other end.

[towrite]

I hear what you're saying; you must have much stronger defenses than I. When this behavior comes from someone who has been a good friend for years - the discounting from someone who has never exhibited it before - it's a little harder for me to just "not let it get to me".

[Ami]

Dear towrite,
  I am just curious----In all your years as friends--- Is this is first time she did this or anything like this.? I am not making ANY judgement in any direction--just curious about the situation. Did she change radically , are you just seeing the truth for the first time b/c you are stronger or did she become a really different person in a short period of time. If you care to elaborate,I would be interested in the specifics . It sounds strange how she changed almost overnight,if that is what happened.                   Love  ,  Ami


((((((((((towrite)))))))))))

[reallyME]

Ami: Did she change radically , are you just seeing the truth for the first time b/c you are stronger or did she become a really different person in a short period of time.

What an AWESOMELY pointed question, Ami, because, if towrite was the one who had changed, it shows major growth in self-protection ability, yet if the other person suddenly changed for the worst, it very well may signify that you have run into a dysfunctional, possibly N type person.  That is what N's do...they woo and then BOO!

~Laura

[Leah]

Re: N behavior but not an N

Dear ToWrite,

What your topic heading speaks to me, is that there are those who abuse people (verbally or in action) who act abusively, just like an N would behave, but, the person is not an N.

In my view, that is so very true and a very real evident fact of life, sadly.

The book 'nasty people' springs to mind, which provided me with valuable answers, and as such, some people just have not a care within them, or a consideration within them, for another, fellow human being.  Riding roughshod, leaving footprints, on caring people's hearts.

Sad to say, sad to see, and sad to feel.

From my own real life experience, the act of Discounting (which is listed among all references to forms of abuse and abusive behaviours) is cruel, as when someone discounts another person's feelings or experience in life, in effect, it is to depersonalize the person.  It's cruel. 

Being discounted, was for me, worse than the actual abuse endured in the first place! 

That's the truth.

Love, Leah

[teartracks]

Hi towrite,

I think I've been on the receiving and giving end of what you're talking about.  I ended a twenty  plus years  friendship a few years ago.  It had always been  a friendship of parity.  Then I brought a need of mine to the table for us to talk about.   It was early in my recovery.  I needed to tap into the 'benefits' package of our friendship in a way I had never needed to do before.  She brushed me off as casually as if she were sweeping trash onto a dustpan. and with no explanation.  That is how I interpreted her actions.

I was up to my ass in alligators.  This happened smack dab in the middle of the worst period of my recovery.  I was blind to everything except my own survival.

Here's some of the things that were going on in her life at the time.  First off she had been the one who at eighteen, found her mother dead from suicide.  Her father married his mistress a few weeks later.  She was a single woman working fulltime and struggling to keep afloat financially.  Her brother, a lawyer is an alcoholic.  Unbeknownst to me, over the years she had escorted him  into and out of rehab several times, and was in a sense rescuing him financially when I presented my need which was for emotional support.   The gist of what I'm saying is that we don't always know what is going on in the other person's emotional life, even the ones who appear to have it all together and with whom we are the closest.  

Since ending our friendship, I've missed her terribly.  I've wondered if I jumped the gun with too few facts.  But I remember my own emotional state  and years later I know I simply wasn't able to jump yet another of life's hurdles passively (her seemingly cavalier brush off).  The reality probably is that had either of us been in better emotional health that year, we would not have felt this jolt in our friendship and would have weathered our collective storms.  

I hold no grudges.  In my heart and mind I've given her the benefit of the doubt, though I haven't expressed that to her.  Maybe I should.  Love covers a multitude of offenses.  

As always, I share this for whatever it's worth.

My best holiday wishes to you and yours.

tt

Edit in:  I do not believe she is N.  I now believe she was overloaded with hers and her brothers baggage.  When I presented my need, her plate was already full and she had not mastered the art of expressing that fact, especially to me who had never taxed our friendship with my own needs.  I think she handled it the only way she knew how and out of an already diminished storehouse.  She made a quick  judgment call as to where her focus had to be.  Probably to blurt it out was the only way she could handle it because she did care for me and sensed that she couldn't reciprocate my needy request by telling me of her own needs. 

[towrite]

lol, Bean.

Ami - we have known each other most of our lives. She has always been an extremely generous person and genuinely interested in others. This change in her I noticed began a couple of months ago. After a couple of events, I tried to talk to her about what I felt was happening. She simply denied everything or kept insisting HER feelings should be paramount. I have been genuinely puzzled and cut her a lot of slack. She has been thru some rough times in the past 4 years - lost her house, lost her job (after 10 yrs she was riff'ed), became disabled (she's better now) and began collecting disability, had knee surgery which hasn't really fixed the problem after 2 years. I have paid her rent, bought her groceries, found her a house, always been there for her and she for me. Now that I'm having the devil's own time of it, this behavior pops up in her. I rarely ever see her, she has a pt/ job which is providing her with disposable income, and she is constantly saying how busy she is. She put on a b'day party last night for me (which I was excited about), but after many emails from her realized the party was not for me. I was just so hurt by her last message that I almost couldn't go. I did go but for the others who were there. I was absolutely correct when I got there - it wasn't for me, it was for her. She was the center of attention, demanded it.

This is just too weird. After all these years, I have never seen her act like that. And apparently I am her only target. She is happy as a bug and expresses no concern at all for the fact that I was hurt. This has happened a number of times in the past few months, so this last message was not a new wrinkle. In fact, when I got to her house, another friend opened the door for me, hugged me, and my friend stood off to the side and said (to everyone listening), "You don't want to hug me, do you? That's alright." And then walked, smiling, back to the kitchen. There was no "I'm so glad you came" or anything. I heard her telling people, "She'll get over it. I've learned to ignore her anger."

I'm not going to blame her or be angry. She's as happy as bug right now with her life. I am very sad that the path she's on veers so far away from where we were. We were so close; we could talk to each other about anything. Then WHAM! At first I thought it was me 'cuz it was so sudden. I am going thru one of the roughest period in my life right now. That's why I cut her slack for as long as I did. But when it was repeated over and over, I realized I simply don't have the strength to face it head-on when she accepts none of the responsibility. It's better that I keep my distance. I have to protect myself. It's just that she's so damned happy - and I had it figured all wrong - I believed that, with a fresh start, her new house and some money to spend, she'd be an even better friend. I was so wrong.

So, tt, there is nothing upsetting in her life right now. I know for a fact. Whatever is compelling her unconcern for me is a mystery. But it's myself I have to protect. This behavior is such a radical change for her.

[Leah]

Hi ToWrite,

Just a thought, maybe, just maybe, she is envious of you, for some reason.

I have seen a change in people, who have become filled with envy, which radically changed their behaviour.

Love Leah

[BonesMS]

This has been on my mind for the past couple of days - Laura's post about reactions gave me permission (!) to post this. Thanks, Laura.

If a person continually reacts to your emotions as "she'll get over it" or "It doesn't bother me", that is discounting. If a person hurts me or disrespects me, and then treats my expression of hurt with the above comments, it's a complete discount of me.

Like Laura's #3 in her post, the other person does not see my reaction as in any way related to the way she just treated me and goes blithely on acting as though her actions and statements were just fine and my reactions are something to be ignored. So my worth, needs, feelings, and dignity are meaningless - discounted.

Am I making sense? When a good friend, who previously never exhibited this behavior, suddenly starts it, it's time for the friendship to end. And this is an N behavior, no doubt, esp. when talking to the offender about this situation produces deafness or a sudden lack of fluency in English.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

It makes sense to me especially in light of my situation with NDoofus.

Another example:

I have a cabinet in my home that I've had for years.  Because of its age, the plastic lamination on it, that resembles a wood finish, started to peel.  I tacked it back down so it would stay put.  One day, when NDoofus was visiting, she started picking at it.  I told her to LEAVE IT ALONE!  She gives me that glassy-eyed, blank stare, then proceeded to RIP IT OFF!!!  Then she has the nerve to wonder WHY I got upset!   !@#$@#$$!@#$#@

Bones

[SilverLining]

I'm not going to blame her or be angry. She's as happy as bug right now with her life. I am very sad that the path she's on veers so far away from where we were. We were so close; we could talk to each other about anything. Then WHAM! At first I thought it was me 'cuz it was so sudden. I am going thru one of the roughest period in my life right now. That's why I cut her slack for as long as I did. But when it was repeated over and over, I realized I simply don't have the strength to face it head-on when she accepts none of the responsibility. It's better that I keep my distance. I have to protect myself. It's just that she's so damned happy - and I had it figured all wrong - I believed that, with a fresh start, her new house and some money to spend, she'd be an even better friend. I was so wrong.

It's hard to see what else you could do.  You've tolerated a lot and are not reacting with anger.  If she changes back to her "old self" you are in a good place to renew the friendship.  If she doesn't change, then maybe it was just time for the friendship to end.  Nothing lasts forever. 

I had a good friend start acting "n-ishly" a few years ago and our friendship pretty much dissolved.  I puzzled over it for quite awhile, wondering whether it was somehow my fault.  About 8 months after we quit talking, I found out she had been fired from her dream job.  Maybe brewing problems at the job were causing her stress, or her growing N-ishness caused the job loss.  There was also other stuff percolating in her private life.  I don't know for sure what it was all about and will never know the truth.  I made a couple of overtures toward renewing the friendship with no success.  I think it's fair to conclude it wasn't my fault so there isn't much else to do but wish her well and let it go.   

[teartracks]

Hi towrite,

I agree that you must look after yourself and I'm sorry for the loss of your friendship.  I still grieve the loss of the one I told you about.  Christmas is a particularly poignant time because she collected miniature rabbit figurines.  I had one put away to give her that Christmas.  I come across it from time to time tucked away in a drawer and it reminds me of the loss and how much I miss our friendship. 

So, tt, there is nothing upsetting in her life right now. I know for a fact. Whatever is compelling her unconcern for me is a mystery. But it's myself I have to protect. This behavior is such a radical change for her.

It sounds like you've explored most of the possible explanations.  Perhaps it is some undiagnosed physiological problem...giving her the benefit of the doubt 

tt

[Certain Hope]

Dear Towrite,

I am so sorry about the painful change in this relationship which has been so valuable to you. (((((((((towrite))))))))

You helped your friend through such a difficult time...
do you suppose that now she's finding it difficult to relate to you in the same manner without remembering her own pain?
Could there be some guilt/feeling of debt to you which she doesn't want to acknowledge?
Or maybe she just wants to block out that entire time period and forget it all?

I've seen people (including myself) behave quite strangely after coming out of traumatic events...
and this just feels like she's almost deliberately trying to push you away, to avoid dealing with something she'd rather not face.

More hugs and Christmas blessings to you, towrite,
Carolyn

[SallyingForth]

So, tt, there is nothing upsetting in her life right now. I know for a fact. Whatever is compelling her unconcern for me is a mystery. But it's myself I have to protect. This behavior is such a radical change for her.

So you changed towrite? If so, that is why she is changing. One begets another. Sad as it is, if the other person in the relationship can't handle your changing, then they will attack you.

I have seen this occur in more than one relationship. The stronger my boundaries became, the more the person attacked me. Because, bottom line, they didn't want me changing. Looking back, I noticed subtle ways boundaries were crossed with that person all along.

[Leah]

So, tt, there is nothing upsetting in her life right now. I know for a fact. Whatever is compelling her unconcern for me is a mystery. But it's myself I have to protect. This behavior is such a radical change for her.

So you changed towrite? If so, that is why she is changing. One begets another. Sad as it is, if the other person in the relationship can't handle your changing, then they will attack you.

I have seen this occur in more than one relationship. The stronger my boundaries became, the more the person attacked me. Because, bottom line, they didn't want me changing. Looking back, I noticed subtle ways boundaries were crossed with that person all along.

Dear Sally,

So true, that resonates with me, with regards to a friend of mine, as she did not like the 'new' me.  My friend abhorred the idea that I should have boundaries, was having none of it.  And  was given to openly mocking me, and discounting me.  To be true to myself, as a person, I cannot give my consent to reverse back, to please another, for their inner world purpose.   

Envy, in my view, sometimes has a role to play in the reason why someone will turn against a person, for no apparent reason.  I have witnessed that happen with friends/colleagues.

Love, Leah