Some thoughts and an update

[Learning]

Hi Portia,

It is just now sinking in.  Self indulgence is the opposite of self denial.  Looking it up in Oxford American...  Indulge is to allow one to have what she wishes...to deny is to say a thing is not true or doesn't exist...

ok I keep getting interrupted...I've sort of lost my train of thought...let's see...allow versus does not exist...close enough for me.  That is an awesome perspective Portia.  Your right ,denying oneself is a bad thing.  I just hope you all don't get sick of me indulging.  

Thanks for the hug in the ramble thread.  Here is one for you (((((((Portia)))))).

Learning

[bunny]

I'm working on grasping the difference between putting on a mask and being shallow.  I talked it over with H and he said that I am really a deep pool but that I only let people swim in the shallow end.   I feel that is right but there is this strong urge to deny it cuz I don't feel I have the right to hold such a high opinion of myself.

Your husband is a pretty smart fellow!    You know, being a deep pool doesn't mean you're superior, and if you agree with that, you have an obnoxiously high opinion of yourself. It's just an observation. Your H probably meant it as a compliment, but it's still merely an observation of reality. And if you choose to diminish this observation, it just annoys people who don't like their observations of reality messed with.  

Don't worry about the meds, I just thought they'd help. It doesn't say anything about you as a person. Just tells me you'd prefer not to take meds. No biggie.

more hugs,
bunny

[Learning]

Hi Bunny,

I agree with you as usual.  I am now thinking "deeper" about why I feel wierd about thinking that I am deep.  Lots here about that I guess.  I mean really I think everyone is deep, although some folks seem to keep themselves out of their own deepness.  I don't think it is superior to be deep...but maybe it is just that I feel it adds to me being "different" from other people...which is a feeling I have had my whole life.  My rational side says that I am not that different from others...but the core of me says that I am.  My sisters and mother have often reminded me that I am different and I think part of it has to do with how I look at things.  And I know I should take what they say with a grain (or maybe a truckload   ) of salt, but still it is part of my upbringing.  Even here at the board, I feel like I have so much in common with people, yet I still feel so out of place.  Aargghhh!  I am getting lost in my own thinking about this.  I need a break.  

Lots of love,
Learning

[Learning]

Hi Bunny,

I'm back.  Looking over everything I have said on this topic, it doesn't  make sense to me.  All my thoughts.  I wrote everything down and tried to connect the dots (that's the engineer in me, I guess) and it just doesn't seem to add up.  I find that so frustrating, when I don't make sense to myself.  Definetly something here, just don't know what.  

By the way, thanks for the reassurance about the meds topic.  

Big hugs,
Learning

P.S.  I think H is pretty smart too (for many reasons)!  I respect his opinion very much.

[Anonymous]

What did your  mother and sister tell you? My mom and older sister told me I was 'different' implying that I was strange, eccentric, impractical, and illogical. And I believed them for a long time. Then I realized that it's simply not the case. I'm not those things. I still feel 'different' but not by their definition. It's by my own definition.


bunny

[Learning]

Hi Bunny,

Whew...glad you found my use of your word flattering.  I was in quite a dither over it.  It's interesting cuz usually I don't think I would be so worried about making a mistake like that...it is just that here, on this board, I feel sooooooo vulnerable.  I feel completely off-step and I don't like it but I think it's good cuz I am also feeling alot of stuff that I had pushed down.

What makes me different?  I don't remember exactly what they said to me as a kid, but I have come away with two major beliefs.  The first is that I can't trust myself...I don't see what I see, hear what I hear, know what I know or even want what I want.  I don't see the world as it is or as others see it.  The second is that I have some sort of special power over people and situations.  As an adult I have heard...that my "words could destroy someone in minutes" and that I am a witch with powerful abilities among other things.  But this also lent itself to responsibility...if something was wrong...they wanted me to fix it.      

It was an obvious display of this type of thinking that really pushed me to this point of cutting off ties.  The time since my kids were born, I really tried to build family ties...I still was holding on to this dream that if I tried hard enough, I could make everything work out between me and my family.  It began to really take a toll on me and I was starting to pull away.

Then in January my dad called me one night complaining that his swollen legs were "weeping" to the point that pools of water were collecting on the ground.  I suggested he go to the emergency room, he refused...and by now I had already learned to just let that go(plus I am 5 hours away).  But he went in the next day and it turns out he was having serious complications from a heart condition he didn't tell anyone about.  I know this because I called his nurse after my mom begged me to because only "I" could handle this and I was HOOKED.  I was so the little girl again.  Crying in the shower, really worried that this time he was going to die.  Really worried that it was all on my shoulders.  I called him and expressed my concern, my love, my desire to come see him.  Couldn't he see that I really cared???  That he didn't need to play any games?  That I would give him the love he craved?  No he couldn't.  The next day, when he was feeling better, he called me.  What did he say?  First he insulted my cousin (who I am getting close to), then he half insulted my H and then he told me that the reason his leg was infected was because of a fall he had taken at my house in 1996.  This was my fault?  Good Lord...he was serious.  I was stunned, really stunned.  I got off the phone but called later to let him know how I felt...I was a bit emotional, but I tried to stick to the facts...he told me I was "f***ing crazy" and should be put away.  Later he pretended like nothing happened.  Always pretending.

Mom's take on it?  "Oh that's why you are so angry.  Oh you know he didn't mean it.  Oh, you know you don't always perceive things correctly".  

I'm done with them...done with the emotional rollercoaster, done with the diminishing, belittling and the REFUSAL to take responsiblity for anything they do.  This was just the last scene, the list goes on and on.

My sisters have complained on and on to me about them.  Yet they really think I'm wrong for pulling away, for not fulfilling my role in all of this.    I'm very sad about this because I really want a relationship with them.  I am not completely writing that off...but for now I need space from them as well.

So what does all this have to do with feeling like I shouldn't say I am "deep".  I guess I still don't really know.  Maybe I feel like if I do compliment myself then everyone will think that I am buying into this idea of having special powers.  I don't really know.  Or maybe I don't want people to give me too much responsiblity.  Oh well...still not sure.

Thanks Bunny for being so insightful and asking really good questions.  I spent alot of time thinking about this one .

Learning

[Ellie]

Oh Learning, I can relate so much with your life! I felt like there was a mirror of me I was reading about, but the situations are a little different.

I really feel for you, because I know the anguish you are going through. I just told H last night I think I live in a parallel universe. When I am at home, no one thinks I see what I see, hear what I hear, know what I know, feel what I feel, etc. But when I drive away from my house on my way to work, it's as if I pass through an unseen door and the world is then normal. At work, I do not have these problems. How can life be so different? H's response was that "I set up my work environment, let them see the person I want them to see, act the way I want them to see me act, and have no past with them so no baggage to get in the way". But he says at home I ahve no choice to be the real me and I confuse everyone else, not the other way around. Strange thing is, at work I am so comfortable really being me, accepted for who I am. At home I feel I must live up to an expectation that is impossible to achieve - SuperMom!

You said:

The first is that I can't trust myself...I don't see what I see, hear what I hear, know what I know or even want what I want. I don't see the world as it is or as others see it. The second is that I have some sort of special power over people and situations. As an adult I have heard...that my "words could destroy someone in minutes" and that I am a witch with powerful abilities among other things. But this also lent itself to responsibility...if something was wrong...they wanted me to fix it.

Wow! can I ever relate!

N parents have always told me same thing. For example I could tell Nmom the sky is blue on a clear day and she would say, "not really,  it may have been at one time, but I'm sure it's going to rain so even if you think it's blue, it's not - you don't see it right and it's really gray, you're always so wrong."

Ndad told me he would never forgive me for being responsible for his truck accident - a woman broad sided him, I was at my home waiting for them to visit. He says since he was coming to visit me, and I lived 4 hours away, thus forcing him to drive so far to see me, it was all my fault and I would never be forgiven. He has no problem drivng 1500 miles to visit my sister every year.

Can we cyber lean on each other?
We'll hang in there together.

[Learning]

Hi Ellie,

Wow...it does sound like we have had really similar experiences.  You brought up some things here that really resonated with me!  Cyberleaning sounds good to me.

First I want to say that I read through your other thread and I say, GO, ELLIE, GO.  I think it is wonderful that you are standing up for yourself in your marriage.  I always find it mind boggling when I hear about people taking advantage of other people.  

When I am at home, no one thinks I see what I see, hear what I hear, know what I know, feel what I feel

I'm really sorry that you are going through this.  It is crazy making.  And thank you Ellie for reminding me of the last one.  I also don't feel what I feel.  Interesting that I forgot that one.  I was taught and reinforced so many times in my life that feelings are something to be feared.  Put them away and use your head...but oh yeah...you don't see things clearly so you have NO CHANCE of doing anything right.  AARGH!  

Oops sorry for the outburst.

But when I drive away from my house on my way to work, it's as if I pass through an unseen door and the world is then normal. At work, I do not have these problems. How can life be so different? H's response was that "I set up my work environment, let them see the person I want them to see, act the way I want them to see me act, and have no past with them so no baggage to get in the way". But he says at home I ahve no choice to be the real me and I confuse everyone else, not the other way around. Strange thing is, at work I am so comfortable really being me, accepted for who I am. At home I feel I must live up to an expectation that is impossible to achieve - SuperMom!

Oh boy, your H reminds me of some people I know.  So at work you are just a big fake, huh?  What the h**l?  That really angers me.  I think you are right...only I think as you walk out your front door the world is normal since you have left the crazy making machine.    

I am really intrigued by your idea of a parallel universe.   I have been feeling that way so much lately.  I remember feeling that way as a child.  Home versus school.  I always excelled in school and I think it was partly because the expectations were clear, not alot of gray area.  I loved school because I could do things right there.  Home was another story.

Lately my parallel universe is between what I am feeling inside and what is happening outside of me.  My family life is positive.  My H trusts my point of view and I have friends who are positive and from what I see supportive.  But still that belief that I am evil, just really out to hurt other people (and I don't know I'm doing it) sits with me.  My inner guards are always here watching to make sure I am not doing anything wrong.  I imagine them to be like little soldiers   .  But really it is frustrating.

Ellie, so you have super powers too.  Yes of course you had the ability to stop that woman from hitting your dad, you just didn't want to.  Again, I find it just absolutely mind boggling that someone could use this reasoning.  I'm sorry you are experiencing this too.  

Thank you for sharing this with me.  I'm sad for what you are going through and have gone through.  Yet I am glad to  know that I am not alone in this type of experience.

with Cyber hugs,
Learning

[Anonymous]

I don't see the world as it is or as others see it.  The second is that I have some sort of special power over people and situations.  As an adult I have heard...that my "words could destroy someone in minutes" and that I am a witch with powerful abilities among other things.  But this also lent itself to responsibility...if something was wrong...they wanted me to fix it.

Learning,

Do you mean they told you you literally had magical powers?

bunny

[Learning]

Hi Bunny,

I don't know if they ever told me that as a child, but mom said that to me some years ago as an adult.  She basically started telling me that I was a witch who had this ability to make things go my way.  She believes that I can just think about something I want and then it will happen.  I rejected that when she told me because it is obviously not true.  As a child, I don't know really what she told me...I don't remember much.

She also thinks she has some powers.  Once when my cats were missing I was so distraught and I called and told her about it.  She told me she was sorry because it was her fault.  She didn't put the protective bubble around me and my cats that morning while meditating.  I guess usually she does.  Anyway, I found my cats later (in case you were wondering).

I feel bad writing about this because this part about my mom makes me really sad.  She really has had a hard life and I know that she probably feels much more confused and anxious than I do.  I just wish she could see that there are people that could help her.  Instead she clings to my dad.

Learning

[Anonymous]

She basically started telling me that I was a witch who had this ability to make things go my way.  She believes that I can just think about something I want and then it will happen.

She also thinks she has some powers.  Once when my cats were missing I was so distraught and I called and told her about it.  She told me she was sorry because it was her fault.  She didn't put the protective bubble around me and my cats that morning while meditating.

The idea that she has supernatural protective/destructive powers can be a symptom of delusional thought process and/or paranoia. It would be less troubling if she was only deluded about herself -- but she's deluded about you as well.

Your mom may have a psychiatric disorder, and that's why she is not in reality as we know it. Many people with disorders refuse to seek professional help. It's not your fault or responsibility. You can't make her better.  

bunny

[Learning]

Hi Bunny,

It's not your fault or responsibility. You can't make her better.

I sure hope I am finally getting that through my thick skull.   I have spent alot of energy in the past trying to find ways to help her.  She has always turned to me when she was having a rough time.  The tricky thing (for me) is that she acts like I AM helping her, she starts talking in a way that temporarily makes me think she is going to make positive changes in her life.  She sometimes even temporarily acts in more positive ways.  Yet in the end she always falls back on the same patterns she has always had.  Now, I truly believe that I've been of no help to her whatsoever, probably more of a hindrance to her overall well-being.

It would be less troubling if she was only deluded about herself -- but she's deluded about you as well.

This all seems so crazy to me.  In some ways I don't really want to see this as reality.  I mean, what does this say about me?  What effect does all of this really have on me?  And then of course the age old question, 'what would people think if they knew?'  I guess that is what I am trying to figure out.  I think I have rooted out some of this type of belief intermeshed in some of my other confusing thought patterns, but I think (and fear) that there is more.  In some ways, it's what I don't recognize that I worry about most.  

I still feel 'different' but not by their definition. It's by my own definition.

I find this idea of embracing your difference exciting.  I had a talk with a friend about this the other day (after I read your post).  She said she also feels different, and she believes it makes her stronger.  I also recall another friend of mine telling me a couple of months ago that she loves being different.  I used to embrace some of my differences, but that was more about what I did in my career rather than who I am (or maybe not   ).  I admire your ability to define and embrace your differences for yourself.  Do you have any advice on how to go about doing that?

And if you choose to diminish this observation, it just annoys people who don't like their observations of reality messed with.

Bunny, I haven't been able to get this observation  out of my head.  Yes you are right...I know I get annoyed when people diminish my observations of reality.  I think I do tend to forget that others might feel that way as well.  Thanks for the heads up!

Bunny, you are a very wise woman.  Thank you for consistently sharing your thoughts and feelings here at the board.  

Love,
Learning

[Anonymous]

The tricky thing (for me) is that she acts like I AM helping her, she starts talking in a way that temporarily makes me think she is going to make positive changes in her life.  She sometimes even temporarily acts in more positive ways.  Yet in the end she always falls back on the same patterns she has always had.  Now, I truly believe that I've been of no help to her whatsoever, probably more of a hindrance to her overall well-being.

Hi Learning,

You actually have helped her by showing empathy. But that's not the same as being a psychiatrist, which is what she really needs. As to your ever being a hindrance, perish the thought.  

This all seems so crazy to me.  In some ways I don't really want to see this as reality.  I mean, what does this say about me?  What effect does all of this really have on me?  And then of course the age old question, 'what would people think if they knew?'  I guess that is what I am trying to figure out.  I think I have rooted out some of this type of belief intermeshed in some of my other confusing thought patterns, but I think (and fear) that there is more.  In some ways, it's what I don't recognize that I worry about most.

It doesn't say anything about you. It says that your mom may need a psychiatrist. I don't think people would think much about it if they knew. My memory is poor, do you have a therapist? If so, you can bring this up with her. It's a great topic.

I used to embrace some of my differences, but that was more about what I did in my career rather than who I am (or maybe not   ).  I admire your ability to define and embrace your differences for yourself.  Do you have any advice on how to go about doing that?

All you have to do is notice your talents and passions, your likes and dislikes that make you a unique individual. For instance, my family told me that I couldn't cook. I agreed with this myth until my 30s and then I tentatively started cooking. I found that I am a good cook and even kind of passionate about food and cooking. This doesn't make me different from all the other women who cook, but it makes me different in my own estimation. Another thing that makes me feel different is that I read professional journal articles about psychoanalysis. There are hundreds of people reading these articles but I still feel different for reading them. In other words, it doesn't have to be empirically proven that I'm different from every other person. It's more a subjective image of myself as a unique person.

Bunny, I haven't been able to get this observation  out of my head.  Yes you are right...I know I get annoyed when people diminish my observations of reality.  I think I do tend to forget that others might feel that way as well.  Thanks for the heads up!

Good for you!!  

Thanks for your very kind words, Learning. They made my day!

bunny

[Learning]

Dear Bunny,

Thank you for the kind feedback.

You actually have helped her by showing empathy

That is reassuring to know ...although there have been those times (especially as a sleepless new mom) when empathy wasn't what I was showing   .    

My memory is poor, do you have a therapist? If so, you can bring this up with her. It's a great topic.

Yes, I will definetly bring this up with him.  I'm starting to feel unstuck and I want to go even deeper with this.

In other words, it doesn't have to be empirically proven that I'm different from every other person. It's more a subjective image of myself as a unique person.

I think I understand what you mean here.  Yes, in this case I already have a small list of my differences...on what makes me unique.  It's also nice to know some of what makes you unique, Bunny.  I had kinda guessed on your passion for reading about psychoanalysis   .  Have you ever considered being a therapist?  

H and I have decided to pack up the kids and hit the road tomorrow morning.  We are heading for a short vacation at Mackinac Island.  I'm really looking forward to it.    

Thank you again Bunny!

Lots of love and hugs,
Learning

[Michelle]

Hi Learning -

Haven't been on the board as much this summer and somehow overlooked this post.  

Just wanted to quickly give you some encouragement on your topic and all the replies.  Have you reread all the posts from the beginning?  I find it intriguing that with each post you are really digging more and more for your answers!  I think the fact that you started your post pondering, then digging for answers and understanding says alot about how much you want to change your life for the better and your true, solid commitment to it.  I am very proud of you - that was the biggest and hardest decision for me as of yet.  After I made that decision, it seemed like things got really hard but more clear.  

I'm very proud of you for reporting your dad's behavior.  You will never know what could have happened if you had not made that decision.    

Keep up the fight Learning.  I think you are close to figuring out some very important and life changing things about yourself.  From my standpoint, it looks like you already have!  

Big Big supportive hugs.
Hope your enjoying your vacation!

Love, michelle