Author Topic: Envious women/mom (N saint) pattern--here is why!  (Read 1331 times)

Gabben

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Envious women/mom (N saint) pattern--here is why!
« on: February 13, 2008, 01:27:30 PM »
 

I think that I found out the answer to my envious women dilemma. Last night I was reading from Alice Miller - The Drama of The Gifted Child.


In the chapter on Grandiosity and Depression I found the following:

As a consequence of the emotions that arose in Barbara
through therapy, this picture of her mother changed. Above
all, when memories of toilet-training entered her consciousness,
she experienced her mother as demanding, controlling,
manipulative, cold, petty, obsessive, easily offended,
and hard to please. Many subsequent childhood memories
of her mother confirmed these characteristics. Barbara was
then able to connect with the real reasons for her long suppressed
anger and to discover what her mother was
really like. She realized that when her mother had felt insecure
in relation to her, she had in fact often been cold and
had treated her badly. The mother's anxious concern for the
child had served to ward off her aggression and envy. Since
the mother had often been humiliated as a child, she
needed to be valued by her daughter.


Barbara experienced in therapy for the first time the
agonizing fear and rage she had had to repress when she was
ten years old and came home from school on her mother's
birthday to find her lying on the floor with closed eyes. The
child cried out, thinking her mother was dead. The mother
then opened her eyes and said, delighted, "You gave me the
most precious birthday gift. Now I know that you love me,
that somebody loves me." For decades pity and compassion
hindered Barbara from realizing the cruelty with which she
had been treated. Triggered by a later event, this memory
could finally emerge, accompanied by feelings of rage and
indignation.


Wow-- what happens for me when an insecure and envious woman like N saint, crosses my path is a process just like the one described by Alice Miller.

(This is a lot to follow as the truth is rarely so cut and dry or black and white)

N saint accused me of being envious of her. Through repare therapy from her bad therapy I discovered that was HER projection.

Last summer,while under distress, trying to understand why N saint had dismissed me or shunned me, in my confusion, I actually went to my current therapist and told her that I was the envious one and that it WAS ALL MY FAULT. But that half truth or erroneous belief created intense distress and further confusion in me. Eventually, others, who knew me, told me that I was not the envious one but that I was buying N saints lie, which was causing the distress and confusion. My new spiritual director also helped me to see this truth.

Also, because N saint was taking my friends, reputation, ideas, as well as my ministry I was feeling aroused envy leading me to further confusion.  However, I was not acting on my feelings, that is the difference between N saint and me. My feelings of envy were not pathological or driving me, my feelings of envy were more in defense. The only thing she had that I wanted was my own charity or ministry, which she was and is trying to steal. I recently read somewhere that "envy steals charity."

She realized that when her mother had felt insecure
in relation to her she had in fact often been cold and
had treated her badly. The mother's anxious concern for the
child had served to ward off her aggression and envy.


MORE CLUES:
When we first started working together N Saint used to worry, excessively, about me which I found to be strange. Worry does not equate love.

One of my confrontations to her this past summer was that she was emotionally "cold."

Another confrontation to her was that I felt humiliated after sessions with her and could not put my finger on why.

N saint was cold, envious, aggressive, and threatend by me. Facts.

She triggered my rage and hatred for my mom. But now I am at a deep level of more anger and indignation at N saints and my mom's betrayal.

This is why I attract envious women; my subconscious is trying to work out THIS story, rewrite the pain of losing myself to conform to my mom expectations so that I could be the love my mom was always seeking, twisted.


"she needed to be valued by her daughter."



N saint needed to be valued by me, when I confronted her it pushed her buttons -- I was nothing but a loss of N supply to N saint that is why she shunned me or dismissed me like dirt under the heel of her shoe.

Clarity feels so freeing.

Now I'm going to get busy healing this one and looking at what happened with N mom that I did not want to happen and how I can mourn the loss of genuine love and loss of true self -- ouch, I can feel this surgery is going to hurt.

Lise
 


« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 01:53:30 PM by Gabben »

Gabben

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Re: Envious women/mom (N saint) pattern--here is why!
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2008, 01:47:52 PM »
She realized that when her mother had felt insecure
in relation to her, she had in fact often been cold and
had treated her badly. The mother's anxious concern for the
child had served to ward off her aggression and envy. Since
the mother had often been humiliated as a child, she
needed to be valued by her daughter.


The above is also a piece of the puzzle of why I play the savior role with these woman, it is part instinctual but also it serves to try to rewrite the story in that if I can save her, mom, N saint, then they will value themselves and I can be my true self or free.

But this is my own selfishness and N trait, glaring. It is time for me to give up wanting to fix or rescue people.

Seeing all of this is like a light illuminating my darkness, it is so freeing to see the fears that were driving me and to face my own part in the situation all the while to finally know that it was not all my fault, I had blamed myself for so long.

Lise
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 02:27:54 PM by Gabben »

Certain Hope

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Re: Envious women/mom (N saint) pattern--here is why!
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2008, 05:46:20 PM »


(This is a lot to follow as the truth is rarely so cut and dry or black and white)

N saint accused me of being envious of her. Through repare therapy from her bad therapy I discovered that was HER projection.

Last summer,while under distress, trying to understand why N saint had dismissed me or shunned me, in my confusion, I actually went to my current therapist and told her that I was the envious one and that it WAS ALL MY FAULT. But that half truth or erroneous belief created intense distress and further confusion in me. Eventually, others, who knew me, told me that I was not the envious one but that I was buying N saints lie, which was causing the distress and confusion. My new spiritual director also helped me to see this truth.

Also, because N saint was taking my friends, reputation, ideas, as well as my ministry I was feeling aroused envy leading me to further confusion.  However, I was not acting on my feelings, that is the difference between N saint and me. My feelings of envy were not pathological or driving me, my feelings of envy were more in defense. The only thing she had that I wanted was my own charity or ministry, which she was and is trying to steal. I recently read somewhere that "envy steals charity."


This is why I attract envious women; my subconscious is trying to work out THIS story, rewrite the pain of losing myself to conform to my mom expectations so that I could be the love my mom was always seeking, twisted.






N saint needed to be valued by me, when I confronted her it pushed her buttons -- I was nothing but a loss of N supply to N saint that is why she shunned me or dismissed me like dirt under the heel of her shoe.

Clarity feels so freeing.

Now I'm going to get busy healing this one and looking at what happened with N mom that I did not want to happen and how I can mourn the loss of genuine love and loss of true self -- ouch, I can feel this surgery is going to hurt.

Lise
 




Dear Lise,

I'm not absorbing all of this too well at the moment, but the parts in the quote above are really registering.

I think you've answered a major question of mine when you say: the N needed to be valued by you.

In fact, you've made me think.... and I might take that even a step further...

I wonder whether what the N-Saint wants is even more... not only for you to value her, but for you to practically worship her...
and what threatens her more than anything is for you to dare to consider yourself her equal.
And so...
the better you get...
the more she fears and despises you.

And I know exactly what you mean by the N-Saint taking your friends, reputation, ideas, and even your ministry. When someone who is consumed by envy views you as a success, she'll try to make your very dreams her own...
but she can't.
Only God can gift a person to accomplish the sort of things you will accomplish in this life... and she can't touch that.

Big hugs to you, with love,
Carolyn

Gabben

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Re: Envious women/mom (N saint) pattern--here is why!
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2008, 06:46:24 PM »
I'm not absorbing all of this too well at the moment, but the parts in the quote above are really registering.



No worries - I understand. It IS a lot to absorb.

That it why it has taken me so long to come to this realization. As I get farther away from the drama
I have more clarity -- hindsight has perfect vision.

I wonder whether what the Saint wants is even more... not only for you to value her, but for you to practically worship her...

OMG -- yes. We all had to worship her but if you ever turned to her to thank her for her help she would reject your graciousness, treating it like a plague. It felt as if she was pretending to be humble. Yet humble people do not reject expressions of appreciation.

Mother Teresa says that "if we are truly humble then we would be unchanged by neither praise not discouragement."


the more she fears and despises you.

YES -- I can feel her despise and hatred for me growing. She never responded to my email calling her on her slander of me to my T. My T and my spiritual director both say that she will trip herself up out of her fear to protect herself.


Only God can gift a person to accomplish the sort of things you will accomplish in this life... and she can't touch that.

Thanks for this (((Carolyn)))!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 06:56:17 PM by Gabben »

Certain Hope

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Re: Envious women/mom (N saint) pattern--here is why!
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2008, 08:35:15 PM »
((((((((Lise))))))))   You've helped me more than you know, in ways that I cannot even express.

The way I'm seeing this now is - (just putting this into the first person for a minute, cuz I have N and N'ish after my hide, too)

If N hates me because she cannot be me, then I will be a thorn in her side forever, by no choice of my own, and she will continually try to pluck me out,  unless I agree to go silent and let her walk away with my identity - and that is not an option.

What she has to meet when she shoots her fiery darts is a wall of strength... which can be compassionate and gracious, yet must be firm and unyielding when it comes to the truth. No room for compromise there. N's being wimps at heart, I expect she'll fold when her arrows start simply bouncing off. Confident expectation there... oh yes.
Almost smiling...thinking of those arrows goin 'thwump'... lol... oy.

Love,
Carolyn

 


Gabben

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Re: Envious women/mom (N saint) pattern--here is why!
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2008, 08:59:26 PM »

Quite frankly I don't think I have ever been involved in anything like this before -- what a drama. It will be interesting to see how it all works out. I am meeting with someone to pray about starting a new ministry (same work) but in a different location so that I can reach out to others. My hope is that N saint has not slandered me too badly that I cannot even get past the beginning steps to do this charity work -- envy steals charity -- there it is again.

So much of her covert aggression mirrors the emotional abuse and mental abuse that I have had to suffer as a child -- the wounding is so elusive, invisible...sort of like her aggression.

I tell myself that God must have really wanted to heal me otherwise he would not have put her in my life. She has stirred up more insight into the dynamics of my Nmom, our relationship, memories and pain than any other relationship I have ever had.

She has touched the abandonment wound, the teenager wound of emotional abuse and rejection of self when I was a baby, etc.

What amazes me is that I do not think she has any idea what she is really doing...Although once, when we were at a mutual friends wedding, this was after her rejection of me,  I turned around quickly, not expecting to see her, she was staring at me with a look of fear and hatred, it was creepy!

My friend, who had just married, never really liked her, now I get that. My married friend was a genuine Christian and that she would never have told me why she did not like N saint because she was above petty gossip. She just got silent and smiled whenever her name was brought up in social context or ministry context. It was interesting.

My married friend is now living in a new country. Even if I was to try to tell her about N saint she would support me and listen but I do not want to waste time or gossip -- the real stuff for me to keep working on is my FOO stuff and my charity (I'll get there)...off the see my T tonight going to get another layer of pain :(

Peace and hugs to all....

Lise

Certain Hope

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Re: Envious women/mom (N saint) pattern--here is why!
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2008, 09:04:34 PM »
Oh, dear (((((((((Lise))))))))) I do hope for a layer of joy and peace tonight, just because...

but with all my heart I believe that God is using what the enemy means for your destruction in order to bless you - - because HE turns it all around and makes all things new again. Because I trust Him with my own heart and life, I can trust Him with yours and confidently say that all is well with your soul.

Love,
Carolyn

On edit - And now it's Thursday morning, Lise, and I just wanted to let you know that I am praying and trusting that those slings and arrows will continue missing their mark. Thinking of you, too, and hoping that you'll have a great day in the Lord... with plenty of opportunities for joy and peace! Hugs.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 08:43:44 AM by Certain Hope »