Healthy community

[Ami]

Amber,  I am sure there ARE people out there who DO want your assistance. Don't shortchange THEM with people who don't. That is all my point was, Amber.
I DON'T want to take this to another thread, Amber.

I am done, Hops ,and I am going out, now. Sorry

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, I think that's an excellent idea because it provides a clear indication to others that two people are trying to work something out.

Just for the record: I don't feel I have anything to work out or through with Ami, but if she chooses to create this type of thread, I will consider responding.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Hops,

This is just my own personal feeling about it, but I've always held a greater respect for those who indicate from the get-go that they're not looking for
others to rally around them in a conflict, but simply trying to express what they recognize to be their own voice.

When that is not clearly stated by a participant in a conflict, I get the sense that the whole mess is not about finding and expressing voice so much as rallying a group of anti's against whatever person is the current object of distaste and dislike. 
Maybe it's just me, but I have felt like an object in such instances.

And another personal note which comes out of recent developments here.
I think it'd be a great idea for each of us to give serious consideration to how we view this group's moderator, Dr. Grossman.  (absolutely no disrespect intended here, Dr. G)
If he's perceived as Big Daddy (and I don't believe he is) and the rest of us are perceived as all the little siblings in the unhappy family (and I don't believe we are), then I think that we have a recipe for a big stew of trouble.
This isn't group therapy, is it? I've never been, so I dunno,
but taking a realistic view of this message board along with its limitations and capabilities would sure seem like a good place to begin improving the community's health. (And I think we've done that through the course of this latest conflict, at least some of us.)

You know, anytime you visit a physician or hospital, there are so many forms to sign, releasing everyone and his brother from responsibility... and thereby acknowledging individual responsibility for choices made...
I mean, doesn't it just stand to reason? To view this place otherwise indicates a certain level of magical thinking which is very dangerous, imo.
In fact, it's just that sort of magical thinking which got me hooked up to NPD in the first place.

Anyway, those are just a couple of my current, incomplete thoughts.
Mostly, I think they center around personal responsibility and being willing to reach for mature, adult standards, even when we're feeling inept at times.
Tossing out the standard completely and just letting it all hang out is to misuse and abuse this community and its members, imo.

Thanks again for this thread, Hops.

Love,
Carolyn

[Leah]

I really do think that a whole lot depends on an individual's choice of words (and behavior) toward another, in any situation.


10. Passive-aggressive:  (Anger Expressed Inappropriately)

    * Put-downs
    * Sarcasm
    * Insults
    * Rudeness
    * Sabotage
    * Intimidation
    * Belittling Remarks



Personally, I prefer to Stop and Listen to the quality and content of the Voice being expressed.

Leah x

[sKePTiKal]

To clear up any potential misunderstandings, let me be really clear about my post regarding enforcement of rules....

I'm not criticizing Dr G or his enforcement of the rules. I am saying that the way they are enforced for certain individuals, is to my understanding and opinion, not fair to the community at large. Well, he's entitled to his reasons for how he enforces rules and I don't need an explanation. It's not my board; I don't get to make the rules here - any more than I do for life... and life, often, doesn't seem fair. I'm not asking for more than being able to speak my mind about this, in the thread Hops created about Healthy Community.

I'm not asking for a change in the enforcement of the rules; just making my point about what seems to the problem here. Seems, to me.

The situation has troubled me for some time and I couldn't pinpoint what it was that bothered me until now.
It's been immensely helpful to my final realization of what is troubling me, to have this thread - and this board.

That's all there is to it, folks. Nothing more; nothing less.

[Gabben]

In a healthy community, the rules as stated apply to all. There are no special dispensations, no free passes, for behavior that violates the rules. No matter who the people are or what their situation is.

To allow behavior in SOME that violates the rules of the board against hateful, abusive, and accusatory remarks, creates a hostile environment for the group as whole resulting in the self-selected silence of many. To allow the behavior repeatedly without comment, implies that it's acceptable. I don't believe this is fair.

People should not let bullies go ON and ON and ON and ON( 2 years)

Ami herself is guilty of bullying; of all the things she is accusing unnamed others of.

Dear Amber,

It was good to see that you spoke up and spoke your mind. I disagree with what you say here, but I respect that this is how you feel and how you see things right now.

The fact of the matter is that I expressed my voice, my truth. It seemed to you that I was being rude or abrasive rather than when I read your posts to me, (most of the time) I really do feel sick to my stomach...that is not a lie for me or an attempt to manipulate, nor is it coming from a hateful place. Perhaps when someone tells me that they feel uncomfortable with me I look at my behavior and my motives. I find that there is freedom from ego when I do.

However, I later realized that it is abrasive of me to put it the way I did. I could have expressed my truth in a more gentle mannor such as saying:

"Dear Amber - After reading your post I felt really uncomfortable and I disagree." But, for me that still would not have covered my truth.


Lise has accused me of "ulterior motives" in my simple, plain and clear comments to her... over & over projecting some image of someone who has hurt her, onto me and onto others.

Amber...once again, you have put words in my mouth...NO WHERE in my threads to you have I used the words "ulterior motives."

So many times here I have asked you to not put words in my mouth...that is my issue with you. It is that you take my words and my motives and twist them...Yes, I feel strongly that there is projection going on here with you. Does that mean that you are a bad person or that you are sick, NO it is just that there may be some blind spots for you, we all have blind spots.

For me personally there is a yucky feeling when I read your posts to me. That is a fact -- the truth can be hard for us to hear.

Thanks for letting me express this.

I'm done with this issue, but if you have  more to say, then please feel free -- I will hear you.

Hops -- thanks for allowing this thread to move into this conversation. As you can see it can be hard for us to control threads, but I do respect your wishes. If you want me to move this post to a new thread please just tell me, I will. However, first, I'd like to see if Amber or Ami have more to say.

BTW: I do not think that Ami is a bully....sometimes we are just angry, defensive, offensive and trying to grow as well as standing up for ourselves for the first time. It is OK to make mistakes, correct? We are allowed more than one chance in this world to grow and improve ourselves, correct?

Amber, you neglected to answer my questions to you....any particular reason why?

Lise

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Carolyn. Good reminder -- it's not 3-D group therapy, it's not a slumber party, and it's not a rumble! (Hopefully... ) There are no tissues, no leather couches, and though he's present in case of emergency, I figure (that's my assumption) that Doc G's normal hands-offishness is because he'd like us to learn from stumbling through things together. Maybe I'm talking myself back into sticking around.

I hope this thread has been constructive overall. I hope it continues or pops up again whenever anyone wants to discuss: rallying, quantity vs. quality of posts, or dominance of the board by FFs (including moi).

I'd like to thank you in particular Carolyn for your observations about RALLYING. For me, it's one of the most destructive habits on the board...when people name-drop, or include others in their strategies, it feels very school-yardy, to me. (The schoolyard was NOT a nice place, in my case...). So-and-so likes ME, or So-and-so IS LIKE ME, etc.  You Go Away, I only want to play with So-and-So today!  OW.

I think it's healthier when we speak for ourselves, and don't subtly or otherwise use others as pieces. When we need to address or reference someone else because it furthers things or is a natural part of the flow, that makes sense. But sometimes I think people are manipulated with flattery, effusive praise (gushing), inclusion and exclusion. Some of that is discussed here: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance

Consider me a gusher. And I was trained to manipulate. And sometimes I exclude and include. Hello, Kettle. But I'd like to be more aware, so I don't "rally". Maybe the board in general can benefit from thinking about rallying too.

love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Hi, Lise,
Thank you for asking.

Yes, I would like you to move it to a new thread if you don't mind. (The Conflict Corner or "CC" idea wasn't meant as a pejorative, it's just a good way for others to see that people are dealing with something between them openly...)

But you could call it anything.

Thanks,
Hops

[lighter]

I thought the concept of passing the talking stick around... was a very fair attempt at turning our feelings over in the light.....

examining them....

without anyone rushing to assign motive.

This was a very helpful vehicle, IMO.... and I hope you do return to the board.

(((Hops)))

[Leah]

Hops,

RALLYING. For me, it's one of the most destructive habits on the board...when people name-drop, or include others in their strategies, it feels very school-yardy, to me. (The schoolyard was NOT a nice place, in my case...). So-and-so likes ME, or So-and-so IS LIKE ME, etc.  You Go Away, I only want to play with So-and-So today!  OW.

I think it's healthier when we speak for ourselves, and don't subtly or otherwise use others as pieces. When we need to address or reference someone else because it furthers things or is a natural part of the flow, that makes sense. But sometimes I think people are manipulated with flattery, effusive praise (gushing), inclusion and exclusion. 

Some of that is discussed here: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance



Respectfully, my heartfelt gratitude - for validation, with accord.

Love, Leah

[Certain Hope]

Thanks, Carolyn. Good reminder -- it's not 3-D group therapy, it's not a slumber party, and it's not a rumble! (Hopefully... ) There are no tissues, no leather couches, and though he's present in case of emergency, I figure (that's my assumption) that Doc G's normal hands-offishness is because he'd like us to learn from stumbling through things together. Maybe I'm talking myself back into sticking around.

I hope this thread has been constructive overall. I hope it continues or pops up again whenever anyone wants to discuss: rallying, quantity vs. quality of posts, or dominance of the board by FFs (including moi).

I'd like to thank you in particular Carolyn for your observations about RALLYING. For me, it's one of the most destructive habits on the board...when people name-drop, or include others in their strategies, it feels very school-yardy, to me. (The schoolyard was NOT a nice place, in my case...). So-and-so likes ME, or So-and-so IS LIKE ME, etc.  You Go Away, I only want to play with So-and-So today!  OW.

I think it's healthier when we speak for ourselves, and don't subtly or otherwise use others as pieces. When we need to address or reference someone else because it furthers things or is a natural part of the flow, that makes sense. But sometimes I think people are manipulated with flattery, effusive praise (gushing), inclusion and exclusion. Some of that is discussed here: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance

Consider me a gusher. And I was trained to manipulate. And sometimes I exclude and include. Hello, Kettle. But I'd like to be more aware, so I don't "rally". Maybe the board in general can benefit from thinking about rallying too.

love,
Hops

Dear Hops,

I just now found this back on page 2.

Thanks for speaking so clearly and reasonably and gently here and throughout this thread. I understand... and agree... completely; and thank you for that link... I found it very enlightening.

This afternoon, I've been thinking about this rule from the Changes thread, as copied here:

2) From this point on, I am asking people not to post threads or individual posts that accuse “someone on the board” without naming names.  They are too confusing and distracting.  If such posts are posted, I will ask the poster to reveal the name of the person they are accusing.  If they don’t, I will either lock or delete the post at my discretion.

Personally, I've thought that this was a really great rule....
However - I sense that its intent was to curtail references to the behavior of other members here and not to create a massive increase in such postings.

(Note - that is only my sense of it)

And here is where I really struggle with framing my thoughts... so please excuse my clumsiness.
Just because we can name names, does that mean we should?
Is that really an improvement over the old hint and imply method  or does it only fire up frenzy which often begins in pm's?

I'd like to hear your thoughts about it, Hops... not because I think that anything should be changed, but simply because it's buggin me.
When might it be appropriate to name names... and when not?
Is all of that open-ness really desireable?
etc. 

Thanks!

Love,
Carolyn

[Hopalong]

Hmmm.
Good questions.

(Feel like pulling on my beard, but that's just a menopause whisker...)

The short answer, I feel, is that it's best to address people directly instead of write about them. If they feel scary, then I'd keep it simple, and use the old standby stuff of:

When you ________, I feel ___________.

(Then sign off and duck!) Well, I didn't mean that. I guess I mean that one can either avoid someone whom our intuition says is unsafe for us. Or, one can politely and briefly engage, and see what comes back. And if what comes back isn't clear or doesn't quickly move (with us) toward resolution of those uneasy feelings, then I'd take that as a signal that this is someone to observe but from a distance.

There are times when we're going to reference others, naturally. I think it's pretty obvious when it's boasting (look how many friends/allies I have! See, I'll name them!) or rallying, and when it's natural (I have learned ___ from X and ___ from Y, or whatever...some benign observation).

That help? I'm pooped, and avoiding things I have got to do...massive avoidance this month. Not good. 

love
Hops

[Certain Hope]

Yes, Hops... that's what I needed to hear.  Got it. Gonna practice it.

Sorry to bombard you with avoidance material... as a fellow avoidant, I'll repent with you and pledge to take better care of my own business here, too.

Been feeling pretty needy here lately, but I'm thinking that's about to pass

Thanks for being here. I'd be pretty messy without you.

Love,
Carolyn

[Leah]

Hi folks,


Whether here on "board" or in life generally - it's all about choice.


I really do think that a whole lot depends on an individual's choice of words (and behavior) toward another, in any situation.


10. Passive-aggressive:  (Anger Expressed Inappropriately)

    * Put-downs
    * Sarcasm
    * Insults
    * Rudeness
    * Sabotage
    * Intimidation
    * Belittling Remarks



Personally, I much prefer to Stop and Listen to the quality and content of the Voice being expressed.


However, I know full well that no one person can bring about a change in another.

For the answer lies within each individual person.


Mindful that each individual person alone is solely responsible and accountable, for their own personal thoughts, words and actions.


Inevitably, one person's choice may well, and most likely, will effect other(s) in any given arena in life.


I am aware of repeating myself, for I have shared this on an ongoing basis for several months. 

I make no apology as I believe personal stewardship is important in life - for everyone, myself included.


I think that the time to speak out is when the all too obvious "Snowball" is rolling out -- instead of waiting until the "Avalanche" has rested and then step in to survey the damage done.

Any form of 'wisdom' works best when it is consistent.


There is a well known idiom;  "you can't close the stable door after the horse has bolted"   - it's so true.


These are just my honest thoughts, and life observance, experience.

Love to ALL

Leah

[wiltay]

I'm so glad you got that on the record, Amber.  BTW, Ami can 'choose' to create just about any 'type' of thread she decides and you can 'choose' to take it or leave it.  Have you ever considered NOT responding?

Hops, I think that's an excellent idea because it provides a clear indication to others that two people are trying to work something out.

Just for the record: I don't feel I have anything to work out or through with Ami, but if she chooses to create this type of thread, I will consider responding.