Author Topic: is narcissism a disease or evil?  (Read 32414 times)

Anonymous

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #120 on: September 25, 2004, 11:53:49 AM »
Quote from: Trollspotter
Would just posting "Warning" instead of "Troll" be better? More benign? That would be ok.


Warning.  I really like that.  It is more benign, and I also think it's less likely to make others (who might not be aware of the "s" situation) feel paranoid.  You know?  Like thinking it was a troll posting or that they were being called a troll?

Quote from: bunny
I hear your apprehension and I am trying to differentiate between people unfairly turning on someone for being who they are, and people being frustrated and disrupted by a "troll." I hope it makes some sense.


Thanks for writing that, bunny.  I was actually feeling pretty uneasy about all this, too.  Your point about moderating a forum is a good one.  I think it's important that people be able to communicate as Guest here, but unfortunately, it makes moderation very difficult.  Without moderation, it's up to the members of the board to work it out and try to find a fair balance between protecting the group and being open to different views.  Even if "s" stays, if fewer people get caught up in responding, I think that would be a good thing.

WF

got that right

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #121 on: September 25, 2004, 12:13:23 PM »
LTL,

I have been on this forum for a long time (before the board changed) and haven't really posted much until recently. I've seen what happens when "s" is on the board and it isn't good. And like others, I see a difference between you and her....a stark difference. You have been here a while too as I recognize your name from a while back and honestly, I'm just not sure why you feel as you do. Did someone persecute you here? I guess since I haven't been here steadily, maybe I missed some dynamic.

In any case, I do beleive it's time to take action. And I think the ideas put forth are reasonable and shouldn't give anyone else cause to think it could happen to them if they are sincere posters (as opposed to agenga pushers, spammers and rabble rousers).

Since you are in reality still here, maybe you are still getting some good from the board? I hope so even if you're miffed (maybe not the right word but I'll let you educate me as to the better word if you feel inclined).

Everyone here has opinions and I don't see a trend toward smacking down opinions. We aren't an unempathic group here. Any other group would probably be far more vitriolic than we've been. Understanding can only go so far. This is my opinion.

Discounted Girl

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #122 on: September 25, 2004, 12:37:58 PM »
imagine all the fun the real troll is having watching/reading this, while he/she, probably she, jumps in and out posting frantically under a variety of names, some of which would shock us -- answering him/herself back and forth, argue, whine, attack, moan, groan, scratch, get huffy, apologize, bla bla bla. Yes, ignoring them is the best tactic, but they are plugging up some really good threads and causing a lot of us to miss out on worthwhile views.

Anonymous

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #123 on: September 25, 2004, 05:04:40 PM »
Quote
imagine all the fun the real troll is having watching/reading this, while he/she, probably she, jumps in and out posting frantically under a variety of names, some of which would shock us -- answering him/herself back and forth, argue, whine, attack, moan, groan, scratch, get huffy, apologize, bla bla bla. Yes, ignoring them is the best tactic, but they are plugging up some really good threads and causing a lot of us to miss out on worthwhile views.


Discounted Girl,

I am a bit confused by your post and I think you are saying something important.  Can you clarify?  Do you believe that 's' is not the troll and that someone else is?  Or do you think that 's' is a troll and that she has signed in with other names during this discussion about her?  Or is it something totally different?

I also don't quite understand what you mean by "causing a lot of us to miss out on worthwhile views".  

Thanks.

Discounted Girl

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #124 on: September 25, 2004, 06:36:02 PM »
I don't answer questions from unnamed guests. I think the name bravado is still open.

flower

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #125 on: September 25, 2004, 09:05:45 PM »
Discounted Girl and others,

DG, I recognize your posts because you have a  8) fun personality and also because you log in too.

Some of these trouble maker guest posters' personalities show through too and they aren't  pleasant and fun. I  keep seeing the same Nish personality type with names or no names too. They seem insincere. But you know it is getting kinda boring.

I think that what we need to do possibly is to at least stop responding to unidentified guests here like you mentioned doing Discounted Girl.

They can pick a name to use. I know that some are supportive and use the plain vanilla guest post  but a guest post is kinda like a pig in a poke.  Kinda like a ghost post.

Wildflower

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #126 on: September 25, 2004, 09:14:02 PM »
Just in case... the guest post above signed WF was me.  I wasn't in a place where I wanted to log in.

Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

flower

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #127 on: September 25, 2004, 09:24:43 PM »
Wildflower (and others)

I thought that WF was indeed you, Wildflower  :)

I see what people mean by the chilling effect here by trollish persons and also that we are having to be more careful and I think that something should be done carefully and thoughtfully about the problem. I feel confident that it can be worked out though from what I've heard about the history of this board.

Anonymous

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #128 on: September 25, 2004, 09:28:20 PM »
Discounted Girl,

I choose to post as Guest at this point for my own personal reasons.  My post was written with sincere curiosity.  I did not mean to offend you.

belle

  • Guest
Going back a few pages...
« Reply #129 on: September 25, 2004, 10:30:30 PM »
I just wanted to say, this was an interesting question, and I liked the answer of the guest who had the 1%/10%20% breakdown, a few pages back.  That is, 1% of the population would be the irredeemable monsters, like Hitler and Stalin, or maybe less uh ambitious people like serial killers, or even just incredibly, deliberately malevolent people who don't necessarily kill, but still cause tremendous suffering; 10% are severely narcissistic people who aren't quite as malignant but still can't or won't change; and 20% are narcissists who boil down to your garden variety asshole.

I think that's probably a fairly accurate assessment, give or take a few percentage points.  (Someone out there has probably done a study).  Thinking about it, though, I'm still not sure if or how that answers the question of "evil."  If we say that the 1% or even the 10% are "evil," that suggests that "evil" is a question of degree; that is, quantity, not quality.  I wonder.  

There's a lot to unpack here, actually.  Going back over some of the earlier responses, it seems like people were in fact answering this as though it were several different questions, which it certainly could be.  Among them:

Does "evil" mean something one *is* (i.e. an internal characteristic) or something one *does* (an action)?  Or both?

Is evil something you're "born with," something you learn, or something you choose; or some combination?  Does it matter?   If so, why?

Can people be "partially evil?"  Is it possible for evil to change?  Or is evil defined by its inability (or unwillingness?) to change?

Is an evil action defined by result, or conscious intention?  What about "unconscious intention?"  (And here we enter the thorny area of whether people with severe personality disorders have free will, even assuming [I do, anyway] that the rest of us do, more or less).

What does it mean to differentiate "evil" from "sick?"  

Ultimately, is the question really, "should we feel compassion for the narcissists (or anyone for that matter) who have harmed us?"  Because I think that's a really good question, and worth discussing.  But i'm wondering whether the answer hinges on defining the narcissist as "evil" or not.

Scott Peck, who was cited somewhere upthread, had an interesting take on evil, which he equates with what he calls "malignant narcisissm" in "People of the Lie."  Personally, I disagree with his conclusions in the latter half of the book, where he veers farther off into a Christian worldview than I'm comfortable with. (Which is yet another potential discussion, I suppose...)  But I really liked a lot of what he said about malignant narcissism/narcissists.  His take, if I recall correctly, was that yes, there was something that could be defined as evil; and that the evil *is* a sickness; and that it's also, at some level, a choice.  He actually boiled it down to certain criteria, which are worth repeating, and if/when I can dig up the book I can post them here.  I'm not sure that actually turning those criteria into a formal DSM diagnosis, as Peck suggests ("evil personality disorder") is a really terrific idea, since, as noted here and elsewhere, "evil" is a really loaded term.  But for personal purposes, I find them useful in assessing people.

Oh, one more thing: I also think "should we feel compassion" is a separate question from "should we forgive."

bunny

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Re: Going back a few pages...
« Reply #130 on: September 26, 2004, 12:20:13 PM »
Quote from: belle
Ultimately, is the question really, "should we feel compassion for the narcissists (or anyone for that matter) who have harmed us?"  Because I think that's a really good question, and worth discussing.  But i'm wondering whether the answer hinges on defining the narcissist as "evil" or not.


Great post, thanks. Very thought provoking. Compassion (to me) is a back burner issue, because it can actually send a person back to enabling. It takes a certain degree of autonomy to handle compassion. A person can consider compassion only if it doesn't harm them or enfeeble their boundaries.

bunny

belle

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #131 on: September 26, 2004, 12:40:45 PM »
Yeah, I struggle a lot with this one.  It's tricky.  I think, tentatively, it *is* possible to feel compassion and still not let the person(s) walk all over you, but it's a long, hard road to get there. and that it's perfectly acceptable to not get there at all, or even want to.  Ultimately I think compassion is more about you than the other person; it's more about letting go of your own anger than about enabling.  But before you get there, if you get there at all, you have to go through the anger.  It's way too easy to mistake rose-colored glasses and the seduction of "I am a good and kind and forgiving (or spiritual, because i think this comes up a lot in that context) person" for having compassion for the *actual* person in all his/her ugliness, even evilness.  

boy that was a convoluted sentence...

Lizbeth

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #132 on: September 26, 2004, 07:23:47 PM »
Hello discounted girl, I have had those very thoughts, in fact, realized what wonderful supply all of this would be.  But I also realize that needed to be discussed.  Hate it being this way.


Quote from: Discounted Girl
imagine all the fun the real troll is having watching/reading this, while he/she, probably she, jumps in and out posting frantically under a variety of names, some of which would shock us -- answering him/herself back and forth, argue, whine, attack, moan, groan, scratch, get huffy, apologize, bla bla bla. Yes, ignoring them is the best tactic, but they are plugging up some really good threads and causing a lot of us to miss out on worthwhile views.

Lizbeth

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Re: is naricssism a disease or evil
« Reply #133 on: September 26, 2004, 07:27:04 PM »
We have done the same thing, it's the only path to freedom and peace of mind.

Quote from: capricorn2
Hi guest/lizbeth

Thanks for clearing up the message with the original 's' problem - I am a very sensitive person and for that reason my desire is not to offend anyone as I have been offended by my ex N and N parents and families of origin.
My choice is to cut the N umbilical cords!!!
/cappi

Anonymous

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is narcissism a disease or evil?
« Reply #134 on: September 26, 2004, 10:34:42 PM »
Greetings,

Boy, these posts are very insightful!  Evil vs. sick, evil =sick, etc.  Extremely thought provoking.

Quote
A person can consider compassion only if it doesn't harm them or enfeeble their boundaries.


Bunny again has hit the nail on the head.  I have often thought about how people can be so tolerant of some Ns I know or read about.  It's because there is something in it for them--they are not getting hurt to the degree that the target is.  They may even be better off being with this N and/or do not have to experience this person's abuse.  It may not be about compassion, but self-interest.

I have compassion for some people, but I am usually standing on the sidelines.  There is a family in my midst that I interacted with for a time.  They were persecuted by lots of other families, but then I was rewarded with my own child being "set up" by one of the children of this family at school.  It wasn't working (this child has no credibility), but still sent me a message to distance myself and draw a line in the sand.  I still have compassion for them--but at a distance.  Does that count as compassion?  I don't know.  It's something I ponder.


Seeker