forgiveness

[el123]

Discounted Girl,  Sorry that I took your post wrong.  It's PMS week (sorry guys) and I'm over emotional and seem to be taking everything the wrong way lately  

There's no way that I would have made it back in the 1800's either! Too sterile and restrictive for me.  I'd probably have been an alcoholic or something.  Yeah, and I definately wouldn't fit into the ladies gossip circle either!

 

cannot imagine having such a relationship with my mother. I would not want one. I only wanted her natural love, period. She does not know me, never wanted to. She chose only to mistreat me to feed some sick and twisted need. I have my own children and cannot fathom anything but a deep, true and real relationship with them. Anything less would be a sham.

I totally relate to this!  If it wasn't for my kids love for my mother and my own love for my dad and other siblings (we have *lots* of family events since I have 8 other siblings) I just would cut her off.  Period.  

I have been doing this program of Byron Katie's called Loving What Is and I was trying to sum up some of her stuff in my posts.  But there's so much to it that after re-reading what I wrote I realized that I didn't even come close to explaining it correctly.  And that I came off as totally invalidating.  I guess I'm just seeing everything through this program right now since it's new to me and helping me sooo much.  I feel like I have spent my whole life either dealing with or trying to heal from my Nmom's treatment of me.  I feel like I'm finally starting to truly get on with my life.  But it SUCKS that we can't have normal loving moms.  I know!!! Take care, -El

[Discounted Girl]

El, thanks for your reply - & I just put on my glasses and realized that your are El123, not Eli ...  

[Dawning]

I'd like to address this to the first post on this thread by Discounted Girl.
WOW, wow and wow.  What energy you tapped into in that post.  So many emotions and so right on in my opinion.  

We shall pass this way but once, and as far as I am concerned, I wasted half of it on a lost cause.

I have this thought too.  For me, it is liberating and a little scary to finally realize that both my parents are freakazoid monsters.

feel very envious when I see adults with their familes all enjoying and loving one another. That is how it should be. You should be able to relax and be yourself around your mother -- you should be able to tell her anything and feel the comfort from a mother's nurturing love no matter what your age. If she does not want to give it to you, what is the relationship for?

Scary question.  For my mother, the relationship exists for her to use me.  She has no nurturing love.  Period.    For me, the relationship doesn't exist on any meaningful level but I am making it clear to her that I will not be used anymore - by my refusal to give her supply.  

Certain things are unforgivable at this point in time for me.  And I don't like it when people tell me things like *forgiveness will set me free* even when I believe their intentions are good (and sometimes people say that stuff with bad intent too as a way to get you to be compliant and more easily controlled.)  

I really enjoyed reading that post of yours, DG.  Very empowering stuff.

[Anonymous]

I think it is arrogant to think any of us has the power to "forgive" someone their sins.

I don't think so at all, because it is only about the self, and not the other person.   It is merely using your personal power to bring peace back to the self, and not purporting to have some ability for external power of forgiveness over someone else.  

I know forgiveness brings peace to the soul (not absolution to the abuser)..

Exactly. You are reiterating the point above, in regards to its non arrogance --i.e. it is not a judgement over someone else that one makes from a position of superiority.  It is only about the forgiver's inner self.

But even so, sometimes we do need make judgements about people, and we can do so without being arrogant whatsover.  We have to discern things about others behaviors and general character, to determine how we will relate to them, or how, and even if we want them in our lives.   If we discern/judge they are harmful to us and we don't want them in our lives, we can move on to forgiveness and to purging the pain they've already caused us, from our inner selves.

If you want to call trying to put a wasted life behind us and go on with what is left and make the most of it - if you want to call that forgiveness, then that is the direction I think I need to head.

This is exactly how forgiveness is defined by many. But maybe sometimes we can get too caught up in semantics, too.  It might have slight variations in meaning to different people, but it's all the same if the bottom line is to stop ourselves from being affected so deeply by the harmful behavior of someone else, that we have no control over.

[nassim]

This subject of forgiveness has come up before and I just equate forgiveness with acceptance. Since I've accepted the situation with my mom and had miniscule contact, I've become more peaceful and able to become myself. I don't believe in forgiveness in the Biblical sense. I don't feel that's in my realm of power (I guess like DG if I'm reading correctly).

But it is good to be free even if it means realizing you aren't really loved. I don't miss my mom either.

N

[Dawning]

Forgiveness is the fragrance the violet sheds on the heel that crushed it.
- Mark Twain

[OnlyMe]

I have grappled with 'forgiveness' for years.  
The pain is still too strong, the scars not nearly healed, perhaps.  I am constantly learning about N, and therefore seem to understand the terribly abusive behaviour, but I have not yet, no matter how strong my sprititual faith, I have not yet reached the ability to forgive my NParents for stealing and nearly destroying the essence of who I am.  
That is why I take some comfort in the phrase "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord."  I have Peace in my faith and trust that some day each of them will need to be accountable for the cruel, painful and evil things they have done.  Furthermore, that day of judgement will be out of my hands and in the hands of God.  
That is where I am on this journey, today, and that is how I have the strength to carry on.

[lmb37]

Forgiveness,...

I am new to this board but every thread I have read has elements of my life.  If I could have a dollar for everytime I tried to forgive my first husband, I'd be a really rich woman.  I think there are just some things that piss us off!  

I think the bigger picture is forgiving ourselves for allowing this to happen in the first place!  How could we treat ourselves this way?  Why in the world did we let it go on this long?  At least these are the things I asked me.

When I am able to forgive myself issue by issue, I am able to move past the ex.  He really isn't the important one here.  I am now and my kids.

[Ellie]

I feel a need to chime in here- if only to read my own words in black and white.

I do not forgive my Nparents. They are hateful, unloving, liars with only themselves to blame for the way our family exists today.

We are a crippled family without love, compassion, caring. We were taught that in life. We were taught to be judgemental, to place yourself above others, but never think you could be as good as the Nparents.

If they were trying to atone for their behavior in the now, I would have a different perspective. But since they continue to pour out the hurt, badwill, and animosity, I have no reason to feel I need to forgive.

Forgiveness comes when the wronged one is shown by the wrong-doer that they take responsibility for their actions and are sorry and will try to not do it again.

There is no way my Nparents have ever thought any part of the above statement.

But who am I to forgive - it doesn't really matter what I think - they will pay for their sins in the after life. That is my satisfaction!

[OnlyMe]

Ellie,
your words are the rest of what I was trying to say, a while ago.....thank you for saying it so clearly -
and it is what I mean with my auto-signature, as well.  That is the only comfort I can get from all of this toxic NParent experience.

[angrygirl]

After reading the posts here, I realize that I have a long way to go.  I get so sad when I think of forgiveness.  I am always so ready to forgive my Nmom, I have been waiting my whole life for her to say sorry for something and it never happened and probably never will.  I too just wanted to have a real natural love.  Not the kind of love where there was a show of concern but immediately back onto her.  I want to be able to say, its okay, I forgive you. If she would only say she was sorry for ANYTHING EVER!  My nmom would give me a squeeze hug, so tight that you would have to say, ok ok stop, it was the best thing in the world to me on one hand but the reason for it...was because she didn't know how to say sorry after an argument, it was her way of saying it was over...until she brought everything back up at the next fight.  I want to forgive but at this stage I guess I need to hear an apology first. All of this is still so new to me.

[bunny]

I want to forgive but at this stage I guess I need to hear an apology first. All of this is still so new to me.

There is no way to forgive someone who is still actively abusing you. Forgiveness can only occur from a distance. Otherwise it's far too dangerous. Your mother absolutely should apologize but she can't. She's five years old emotionally. It's unfair that your mother is a five-year-old in an adult body. My mom is probably about 8.

bunny

[OnlyMe]

Thank you, bunny,
for your solid comments.  
You are helping me keep my NM in perspective, by reminding me of what we know to be true.  As long as the abuse continues, whether verbal, physical, or emotional, then there is no place for 'forgiveness' as such.  You are helping me stand my ground, and stay strong, to help deflect the arrows and pain that she sends my way.
Mine is six, disguised as an 85yr old woman.

[Judith]

For me, Forgiveness is not an all or nothing thing.

This morning I woke up and realised that my N father really truly
does not know the damage he does to others. It was astounding to me because the neglect and entitlement and grandiosity and abuse is to easy for me to see. But he seems truly confused whenever I suggest that I need something more from him.   SO that even tho I am living with him, and he is critical and neglectful, I find myself feeling sorry for him. Sad for him that he is such an emotional child. He accomplishes a lot, but never seems to really enjoy his accomplishments.. (even tho he brags) I dont see the normal sense of fulfillment in him that achievements would bring to a normal person. He discounts himself at the same time as he boasts.
What helps me to forgive, although I can only forgive sporadically and incompletely, is that he treats him own heart no better than he treats mine. he doesnt love himself either.  Its all a charade.
     He broke down once and admitted that he felt like a total failure, that he had never been good enough. This was after he was diagnosed with cancer. It was a moment of truth, but then he forgot it...  I of course, remember what he said word for word.  
     I too allow myself to fantasize about how when he dies he will have to feel all the pain he caused my mother and me. My worst fear is that he will be met by angels and let off the hook, never having to understand what he did to us.  Obviously its easier for me to forgive if I believe God will punish!  
     Some days I wonder, what did I do to deserve this father? Was I a narcissist in a past life?  Or maybe it is some sort of test to see if I can
love unconditionally.
     Elizabeth Kubler Ross in one of her books, stated, Why should an advanced soul judge a kindergardener?  Narcissists sure seem to be spiritual kindergardeners.  Perhaps if we can find love or forgiveness
in some degree towards the N's in our life, we will grow spiritually.
(this does not mean taking any abuse... by the way)  
    Of course, this means we are superior to the N's. does this make us
N's too? LOLOL  
    Lastly, what I need to forgive is God, for giving me the N's who tortured me.  At least God didnt make me a N, a person who never could feel
close to or equal to another person.  it must be hell to be an N.
    Thanks for reading these musings.
Judith

[Anonymous]

Hi Judith:

although I can only forgive sporadically and incompletely,

You have totally validated my feelings with your words.  I know it is a choice for me to forgive completely and consistently but I am, as you say, forgiving sporadically and incompletely.

I wonder if I do that because of the repetition of the n-behaviours?
I mean, I forgive this or that... but then, very quickly, I have something new to forgive.
Over and over with such frequency and consistency....there is something else to forgive.

I guess I will have to decide to forgive consistently,  and frequently...in order to forgive completely.

Yes...I think that might be it for me.

he treats him own heart no better than he treats mine. he doesnt love himself either. Its all a charade

This is something that is clear and helps me want to forgive as well.

Thankyou Judith....for your honest, insightful post.