Painful truth.

[Hopalong]

I loaned my D a few thousand in recent months that cost me severely, but she promised to deposit it when her financial aid came through. In the last few days I asked her to confirm that she would do it today and she replied, You bet, and I'll email you when it's done. I had been extremely clear that it was extremely important to me, particularly because my account is very low and I'm being evaluated for a mortgage.

She didn't do it. And didn't even contact me with an explanation. Nothing.

I'm beyond hurt and disappointed. And very angry. Left her a quite bitter voice mail about realizing I've made some serious mistakes and that her own life will not work if she makes repeated promises to the people who care about her most and those promises mean absolutely nothing.

I am crushed and furious and feeling very guilty that I have raised a charming but narcissistic, self-absorbed young adult who will literally lie. Repeatedly. I know she has a terror of disappointing "authority figures" and so gets herself in situations repeatedly by saying what people want to hear and then fleeing from the responsibility...

...and I must have been so enmeshing or doting that I brought this about.

Whatever the causes, even if it's all on me, it has to stop. I will not lend her another cent. And right now, if she asked to move home (not that she will), I believe I would say no.

I have no trust in her. I love her very much but I just have no trust. And that is devastating.

I will stop enabling. That is the one thing I CAN do. But oh what a sad lonely time I'm in for.

Hops

[axa]

Hi Hops,

So sorry to hear of your daughter's behaviour.  I can empathise with your feelings as I found what you wrote very familiar with regard to my son.  He also promises everything and follows through on practicaly nothing.  I know he sees me as an authority figure also.  I have had so many disappointments around him that a part of me has just given up on him.  I have gone through the pain, hurt, shame, etc and now realise that he is how he is, for all sorts of reasons.  He makes his choices and everytime I engage with him and have an expectation I will be hurt.... keeping an emotional distance has become very important for me otherwise I give up my energy to trying to make sense of his very hurtful behaviour.  For me the main learning has been each time I bang my head off the wall IT HURTS...it has been a long painful journey to figure this out and I guess loving him at a distance is the only safe place for me.  Don't know if this helps in any way other than saying I understand how hurtful it is to feel so disrespected by one's child.

Much love,

axa

[sKePTiKal]

(((((((((((HOPS)))))))))))

I hope that there is some other explanation for this lack of deposit, later on, that comes to light. Perhaps there's been some delay between banks or the posting of the deposit... or in releasing the financial aid. I'd believe the latter to be a good possibility... some schools even try to have students bring the FA back, because of outstanding fees or errors. Though you can imagine how difficult that is, in today's reality.

[Izzy_*now*]

Oh Hops,

I am sorry. Again we are in the same boat! Did we spoil our daughters, or/and just make them Narcissistic? I think mine has to do with no father, a man she idolized and never knew. I forget. Did yours know/love her Dad a lot?  Ever get the feeling that she thought a lot about him and it was your fault that he wasn’t around? both Only Children?

I sensed that in my D and she admitted it in some previous correspondence. She doesn’t know for a fact that I have gone NC in my mind. I just haven’t written, as I have nothing to say except my process of recovery, and I doubt it matters when it isn’t inconveniencing her. She has still not sent the picture that she promised.. That might appear to be small, but it was a promise. I feel at times, and know at times, that she lies.

Back when her father died, she was crying and saying she had planned to go see him that summer. She was  15 and has said nothing to me.(She would have gone to see a father who was drunk all the time, living with a woman who also was drunk all the time.) I believe that to have been made up on the spur of the moment--why?  not having seen him for 7 years, except now at his funeral?  Was I to feel bad?

This spring after I was hit with the car, she said she had planned to come out to visit me, but with her ‘broken back’ and now me incapacitated, she had to cancel those thoughts. Déjà vu. Why? She never mentioned a thing about it!

I know things went bad for her after she married an N, but it also affected my life and now she has ‘lost’ her two sons to him, her daughter is 20 (the age D was when she married the N) There is something in there that I thought I was missing, but can only think of her, now, as being N.

There doesn’t appear to be much concern about me.

Now your D has pulled this serious  blow to your finances and is not concerned about you? Is she aware what a hardship it was for you, in the midst of all, to send her the money to see her through? and now you need it? Then by blasting her, she will have more ammunition against you?

I decided to never give my D any more ammunition, by ‘begging to have that picture’ and truthfully, even for posting here, my life has been so confined for the last 4 months , there isn’t anything  happening, worth talking about. I keep a journal re the lawyer and is it ever boring!

Again, I’m sorry about this, Hops, and can relate

Mine is 45 and ought to know better and is working and self-sufficient, but….after I lost her in 1991, she said  that would never happen with her children and her.

Is there something about us, having dealt with Ns, that makes us targets again?

I hope she repays you soon.

Love
Iz

[Hopalong]

thanks, everybody.
I talked about it with my counselor this morning and he thinks I need to let my anger drain (it's pretty much over) and then ask her to try to figure out WHY she does this pattern, as well as when she's going to make it right. That's all I can do (that, and new boundaries--including of course, no more Bank of Mom). I wrote a draft email for her and sent it to him first.

Axa, I'm sorry. It is really the most painful thing. As I told my counselor, much much more than the money, it's the character stuff that grieves me most. But...we can move forward. He drew the Karpman triangle and I saw how many ways D and I fall into that...and he reminded me about the alternate choice: "AA", or Assertive Adult.

PR--you may be right there was a problem with the financial aid. But that doesn't excuse her from not communicating responsibly and letting me know.

Izzy--I hear you. I can understand why you don't make yourself vulnerable any more. I'm not ready for NC -- don't want that. But I can understand how parents get hurt so much they can go there.

I still have hope. And I'll need a lot more patience. He said it's common for people in their late 20s and 30s to suddenly shove away harder than ever, or to come up with so much anger and blame of their parents.

I want to weather it, and hope we can.

love,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

S'OK, Hops... I do understand. My girls are in their early 30s and we seldom communicate on a regular basis.... unless they need "the Bank of Mom". Had to laugh... that's what we call it too. But it's a very touchy subject.

I guess I still struggle with "letting them go"... letting them be who they are and then just dealing with that. And with how far away is TOO far. At their age, they need to be defining those kinds of behaviors for themselves, I guess - no "mommy lectures" about how to do things; how to be. And they may have to learn the hard way - with other people/situations... and also that Mom's expectations are still Mom's expectations... though those may have changed. In my case, I know they have.

[lizzie20]

Hello Hopalong,

Tell her she's grounded for one whole month.

It's irritating when people we rely on turn delinquent, but it's a very real part of life.

I've had this exact thing happen to me a few times in the past, & as a result I've put an effective system in place so that I've disbaled this type of abuse happening to me ever again.

I've informed my 'delinqent debtor' family members or friends who've done this type of thing that their credit rating has been seriously affected by their non-payment, & that in future if I deem it appropriate to lend them money I will take security in return.

You see, I'm very serious about my generosity and who I allow as a recipient.

I've taken a notebook computer, an ipod, a collectible signed basketball, and at one time both sets of cars keys & their car which remained parked in my car space for 3 weeks, when it was only supposed to be for 1 week. I'm fairly certain in that situation I never would have seen the money, and it was a few thousand.

I will only go to these lengths with certain people. Those who have broken trust with me in relation to repayment of funds historically, and timing of repayment of funds. I may still love them and wish to help if I can, but only on my own terms. Quite simply, I refuse to be a beggar at the gate, running myself ragged, chasing my own money.


Lizzie20
PS, I don't charge interest.........yet.

[Hopalong]

My counselor AND all of you advised me so well today.
He suggested I write just a 2-liner letting her know I regretted the bitterness in my voicemail last night but that I still need the deposit. (And he looked over a longer one I wrote her and helped me tone down the edge.)

So I did.

And she replied. Lots of excuses about phone problems, etc. but she said she'd transferred it to her checking but it hadn't posted yet so she couldn't do it yet. I am believing her.

She is NOT off the hook for ignoring it and not communicating but I am relieved that she finally has, and also that she was affectionate.

That, of course, is my vulnerability. And I need to use this episode within myself to stiffen up my boundaries and my resolve to NOT BAIL HER OUT ANY MORE.

Her ignoring this deadline, and no explanation until I practically had a meltdown, was the last straw. It was just TOO inconsiderate, whether or not it was as wickedly narcissistic as I painted it.

I need to reflect a lot on my way of relating to her. THAT'S what I can change.

I love her, I do want her in my life, but I no longer want to set myself up (as Izzy said) to expect reliability. Maybe it's still to come...she is relatively young and neither I nor the culture helped her know how to grow up mature.

And, I should also remember that I get all the resistance and so forth, because I'm the parent alive to get it. She has no father...and she does tend to go off the rails this time of year (the anniversary of his death).

Anyway, I do forgive. But I hope for my own sake that I do not forget.

love to all of you,
Hops

[Gaining Strength]

I am thinking about you Hops.  My heart aches for the disappointment you experienced in this.  I may have some thoughts to add but I want to percolate before I write.  The longing and desire and need to have a trustworthy, dependable relationship with your daughter (family) is so vital - so basic and yet so struggling. 

[Hopalong]

Another day with no deposit and no explanation...

Distressing. I'm not hysterical about it, but disturbed that she seems to feel nothing about obligation or ... well, what's right.

Generation gap or not, this isn't right.

And I feel sad. But...so it is.

love,
Hops

[Izzy_*now*]

Ah, Hops

I'm so sorry.

Distressing, disturbing, indifferent? unconcerned? selfish is what I'm calling mine.

--but I feel more at peace since I decided to never again "beg" for one iota of attention from her. Her closest freind had TWO abusive parents and I think has a "hold' over D in analyzing words and actions, to the detriment of me.

Hang in there.
Love
Izzy

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Izz.

I am devastated but trying hard to assert myself (inside myself, she doesn't care) -- to tell myself, NO MORE.

It is heartbreaking.

I feel her indifference.

Either she's so much more callous and selfish than I had been willing to face...OR, she's in some terrible trouble I can't even fathom.

I just can't put it together. It makes so much of our recent history of constant calls and contact and closeness -- all during her terribly stressful crises and recent move -- seem meaningless.

Or fake.

I do feel one anchor has been removed from my life.

This is beyond indifference...to not even explain...

 

Hops

[Gaining Strength]

OK - could it be possible that she is overwhemed and embarrassed and not able to communicate b/c she is such a s**t?  And it that is so would it help the mother??????


I'm hurting for you - just hoping that it takes some of the pain and burden from you.  Truly hoping and praying for a relief and release.

[Hopalong]

GS, bless you...I believe you are right.

I woke up at 4 a.m. grinding my teeth until my jaw ached, called her and just cried into her voicemail...told her I NEED it, that I am being evaluated RIGHT NOW for a mortgage and will be getting overdrafts, and don't have another resource for the money to bring my balance back up...I just cried all over the phone.

She called me back immediately.

Said it truly was unavailable to withdraw until today; she has been checking. And this morning at 9:00 she is going to take care of it. I told her she should have called me, and she made excuses...

...But I think you're right, GS, she is ashamed. And I guess, in a way, that's a better answer.

I also told her that I had gone too far in bailing her out this time, as in doing so I had really jeopardized myself.

I wonder if it was, in some degree, unreasonable for me to expect her to suddenly THIS time take the idea of a loan from Mom more seriously...because the truth is, I have bailed her out so many times and NOT insisted on repayment. This is the first time I have been so financially depleted that it was truly critical to me that I get it back.

I was very clear about it, as was she.... But, that's the end of that side of things.

I am so glad she responded, but I am not glad that it took such stress and anguish to get through to her.

No. I talked to myself tonight, saying NO, brother! NO, boss! and NO, Daughter!

Stomped around the house for a while setting that boundary aloud, and that felt good.

I will not stay angry (literally, my teeth hurt from grinding) -- it poisons me -- but I will be an assertive adult.

I guess it's okay I cried. That was the hurt beneath the anger and I don't care that she saw it. To try to be a detached, all-rational parent about this wasn't where I am...so I cried.

I heard some kind of regret. Self-absorbed or not, I do think she loves me. As much as she is able.

love,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Awww... Hops....

It will be OK and I think you'll be able to come to a new understanding with D - talk it through - after the deposit is made and crisis averted. There just isn't any rule book about being a mom of a young adult in today's world... there is no "normal" anymore... and what with our wanting them to be independent and have their own life - learning from experience; and the way the deck is stacked against the young financially and trying to help.... it's easy to transgress our own rules/decisions/boundaries about this.

It's impossible to know ahead of time whether our decision to help is "right" or not. I argue with myself all the time over this very same issue... am I enabling? am I sending a message that I don't have confidence her ability to support herself? does she need the cash desperately but is too ashamed, embarrassed or proud to let me know????? I hate like hell to hear that my D has moved up from living on peanut-butter & jelly to soup... (with vegetables). So I offer, even when she doesn't need help... or when she's going to her friends for help, instead of me, like this last time. And I've been known to just send her some cash - for no specific reason except to ease my own worry.

And to our D's... I guess we're always going to be the "mom" in their minds... from childhood. As they struggle to stand on their own two feet, and not need our approval to feel "whole"... toes get stepped on, feelings hurt, nothing seems comfortable about the relationship. I know I don't always get things right or communicate well... I rely on the "old" patterns of communication between us too much. And I keep promising to go hang out with my D... to spend time getting to know the new D, who IS making it by the skin of her teeth in this economy... and figure out who we are again, now. I just haven't done it yet.... and I kick myself for this too, ya know? Sometimes I feel there's too much space in our relationship right now. And I know it's sort of necessary for both Ds...

I'm learning to accept that I unwittingly wasn't the best mom - in my eyes - (even though I tried to be) thanks to all the buried FOO crap that manifested in my life - and controlled me. They deny this self-judgement of myself, to my face... but I see them struggling with some of the same issues of boundaries that I did, too. Thankfully - we can talk about this - and that may be the most important thing, anyway. We're trying and it is what it is; that's not all bad.