Denied, Denied and just frustrated....

[Gabben]

Gabben - too tired to write what I really feel but I want to send you support, concern and encouragement to pour out your hurt and pain here.  I identify so clearly with much that you write but I encourage you to write it out here.  Keep spilling it out.  It does help and one day there comes a shift in perspective and finally you see one small piece of it differently - it is like a foothold on a sheer rock face and that foothold gives you a boost and then you work on getting the next foothold and so on.

This is definitely a place to do that work.  Find a way to ignore those who send callous PMs.  They are cowards.  This is a place to do that work.  Keep it up.

GS - thank you. I know you know this fight through shame and the tears.

Lise

[Gabben]

One more... because the attachment issues go so far back: pre-verbal... it seems to the cognitive part of us that these wounds have been with us for so long... they are the canvas of the painting of our identity. Even the mere suggestion of letting those wounds/pain go is threatening in the extreme to our unconscious inner child - it suggests death

((Amber)) thanks, really big thanks. Your insights are helpful.

RIGHT to what you wrote above. Last night, as I was LOVING my pain, I kept flashing on the idea of our fear of death; that with each step of allowing my heart and mind to just sink into the pain, fully take it in, I could hear a scream in me saying "NO this pain will kill you!"  

The only way that I have ever been able to defeat the fears is to face them to find out that they are just illusions.

I feel better today, despite that I have a deep layer of burning baby rage and hurt under it that needs to be felt and fully experienced out of me. I'm going to go do yoga, forcing myself rather than go to the store to by a pack a ciggs....I play this game with myself, seeing how much pain I can take, fears I can face, before I break down and need to run - it is my own way of giving myself the autonomy that I craved or desired as a child, self-discipline...MY WAY.

[Gabben]

WAM....this layer of baby wounds comes up and grabs me back down into the pit of of stabbing darkness.

That word..."Precious"...such a loving endearment loving mothers whisper to their babies. Maybe you could hold her, little Lise, going so deeply into the visualization that you feel her tender weight and warmth in your arms, and you and she can float through darkness cocooned in complete safety, together, you bending over her just giving her this word, straight from the light in your heart, "Precious"...and you will be somewhere new together.

Hops

Hops -- just reading what you write here is a visualization. Have you ever thought of starting a blog or writing a book with particular visuals for re-parenting the inner child??? You would be great at it, all I have to do is read your words and the vision comes, as if my inner child responds immediately, thank you.

[Gabben]

she'll surprise you!

Amber,

Today, as I am working through the repressed rage, letting it stab and burn, allowing the images of what I want and what I am not getting to come fully into my reality as it allows the old unfinished pain to work itself out of me; I found that suddenly I want to go to the store, but not to buy cigarettes but rather to buy chocolate, one of my most favorite things in life. It was a surprise because it came with ease to finally not walk across the street to the store for a pack when I am in so much pain. Now, If I can withstand not smoking when in this much pain perhaps I can get through a day? I dunno but I do say that the idea of smoking suddenly became disgusting to me, again, as if I am just too precious, even in my rage, to smoke over it.

This is a surprise.

[Hopalong]

I am moved you'd suggest that, Lise. Thank you.

In my...well, realer life...I am a poet. So maybe even though I sometimes feel my writing has atrophied (what with working and caretaking and fighting off my brother--no time or energy for it), if I now and then happen to create imagery here that sometimes helps somebody, it's not wasted.

Your openness is what lets kindness enter.

You (and little Lise) deserve nothing less. Ridiculous notion, that you and she would not deserve as much tenderness as any other spark of life in the universe. You do, and as soon as you give it to yourself, then you will have it. Permanent access.

You accessing your own deservedness. You deserve peace and safety and it sounds as though you're giving yourself some.

Very glad it helped...

Hops

[Gabben]

Yes, hops, you really have a gift. Thank you, what a blessing at this very painful and challenging time you have been for me, you and your gift.


Here is one of my favorite quotes.

“You know quite well, deep within you, that there is only a single magic, single power, a single salvation... and that is called loving. Well, then, love your suffering. Do not resist it, do not flee from it. It is your aversion that hurts, nothing else.”  Hermann Hesse


Lately, I have been attaching myself more to my suffering rather than my running away from it and my fears around my suffering that throw me into tantrums. For so long, last two years, I had been sinking into the pain, when it comes up, but recently, in the last few months I could just not take anymore as well as more just kept coming, I was on overwhelm trying to process. Then suddenly, yesterday and today, after I screamed and broke one more thing in my house I finally just gave in and caved into the pain, deeply. I finally just started surrendering to the pain and I feel better, cannot describe it, chest burns, ache and suffering still abound, but just having that little bit of strength to hurt in agony without falling for first time in months feels good! It feels like I feel like I am going to make it, even if I never get money or a job, even if I lose all and even if I am forever an outcast, I feel detached in my suffering....finally. This is the real goal that I have wanted all along to be detached from the world and attached to my pain and to be good to myself which is happening in me....slowly but big Lise IS starting to care for little lise.

Thanks, today is a better day.

[Gabben]

This evening I was led into reflection about this board and what brought me here. Over two years ago I was in a NT relationship that was confusing. After many months of pain and confusion, listening to my intuition I started researching NPD and other disorders. I learned about myself but I also learned to stop blaming myself for the dysfunction of the NT relationship, a relationship that was confusing reality because I was buying a lie of their reality. The story is on the board in the story sections. However, I am going to take it down as a sign of my moving on.

My encounter with the NT was my first that I can speak of in really knowing someone with high N tendencies. It triggered the pain of my NM which I was quick to see having already spent many years in therapy as well as 12 step. But what I had not done, from the depths of my heart was forgive my mother or forgive a lot of people of past in life, including God and myself. It became clear to me, after the pain was UP, that God had put that NT person in my life for deeper healing, for me to learn a deeper level of forgiveness, one that at the time I had no idea existed.

For months and months I used the dynamics between the NT and myself to help unravel the wounds of my NM. At time the NT was still acting out her revenge on me, hits would come, triggering more pain. Processing the old pain was giving me insight to understand the T as well as a heart to push through my hatred which was old, stubborn, extremely painful hatred.

What a process it all was, it when on and on and on. I never thought that there would come a day when I would be able to visualize myself in the presence of the NT without feeling hatred. But, then, that day, day of being able to visualize love and acceptance finally came. Today, I am past the NT, just in reflexion, trying to make more sense of it as well as see the progress so that I don't get stuck in a recycle.

There were so many other wounds along the way, when we are maligned by an N, they get others to work for them, doing their dirty work with relational aggression. There were so many slings and arrows, constantly. These days I am reaching for forgiveness of those that failed to see the N and that acted on her lies. One of the other dynamics that has recently triggered the buried frustration of baby rage in me.

There is just much frustration in my heart, it hurts but I am seeing more clearly the truth that I cannot change the past and that I too have wounded many people in my life which always makes it easier to forgive.

I've carried a level of contempt in my heart over the years for people who have not had to suffer much. Those with very little wounding in childhood, who were raised in stable loving homes. I have envy for them, their stability and ability to move through life without so much shame and dysfunction. I'm trying to get under this envy, dissect it and find a resolution for it. I tell myself to be happy for them that they have not had to suffer. But I think the real envy is about that they get good recognition in life (even though I feel I have done more self introspection) where I get the bad recognition for being dysfunctional in depression or social anxiety.

What is really going on above in what I wrote is the baby need for someone to recognize her pain and reward her as well as just that plain and simple need for recognition that we need as children. Here comes another layer of grief.

It helps me to list the things that are in me that I'm clinging to to see what needs to be let go of:

Desires for recognition
Desires for understanding
Desires for praise
Desires for empathy
Desires for comfort and security (not being rejected)
Desires for honor...to be seen as precious and special, to be seen as the glorious little baby that know one ever looked at with spark of love.

What amazes me is that I still have these needs kicking and alive in me. I have taken them to the cross of just letting them die more than I can even count. Much has died and I can know that at times just in my responses to life...less envy....way less sorrow for the success of other, more joy at the good for others, much more sincere joy.

Up until I met the NT I had never, honestly, ever had an envy problem. There was a time in my life, in my early twenties when I felt really insecure and easily threatened by others success or just qualities. But, then, all shifted for me when I started living from my heart and healing. I can look back now and see much joy in my life, many friendships and a full acceptance of just being and average person living an average life.

When the NT came into my world I found envy in my heart...it was confusing because I was normally not envious but rather an admirer of others (that is why the NT liked me so much)...the envy I found in myself took a long time to manifest itself. Today, with hindsight I can see that the envy was a provoked envy, just like the video of N's that N's constantly hang out themselves to be viewed and admired. They bug us with so much bragging and acting. It took a long time, years, for me to start feeling bugged by her because my heart was so good. I started being bugged by the NT when I felt pushed down by her, my gifts and talents, as well as her telling me that I was not ready to receive recognition for my talents because of my pride. That was true but it was I who pointed that out to her. It was always so confusing. I was trying to slay my ego with an NT and she was making me feel wrong for it. Anyway...recycles there. Just tying to get clarity because the NT's in their envy push envy onto you, by taking it ALL. I'm just still trying to wipe the mud off my face.

The good that comes out of it is learning to slay the envy that gets evoked in us. Wow...that has been where I am, learning to trust in the inner strength of my own goodness and just have faith in the goodness of life.

Progress....not perfection.

For the last few months I have been in a state of trauma and still am on some levels. But now I am going back to my suffering to ease the negative ways that I have been coping.

I am afraid, I feel right back where I started two years ago; I know that I have made progress but I am still in self, in ways that I feel hopeless about, at times. I feel that unless I am perfect I will not be acceptable or wanted. Old tapes. My goal all along has been to just accept myself and want myself.

Just rambling here no need to respond unless moved. I just needed to write tonight.

Lise

[seasons]

Desires for recognition
Desires for understanding
Desires for praise
Desires for empathy
Desires for comfort and security (not being rejected)
Desires for honor...to be seen as precious and special, to be seen as the glorious little baby that know one ever looked at with spark of love.

Gently reading, soaking up the love, pain, and faith in the future.  Hope tonight surrounds you with peace and rest. seasons

[Gabben]

Thank you sweet ((seasons))

[Gabben]

I'm still stuck buried in FOO wounds. Last night I could not take anymore pain. I feel pressured to be perfect and perfect fast.

I'm beating myself up for being self-absorbed. But, then, this AM, I realized that I was never allowed to be a self-absorbed baby, soaking in all around me in unconditional acceptance or love. Instead I had to soak in all around me in order to be my mothers mother. I soaked in her rage, I soaked in her needs, denying my own, I soaked in her shame, I soaked in her fears. I was my mom's mom.

The word soaking reminds me of smoking--soaking-- when we smoke we are soaking in death, we are soaking in toxic air, just like when I was a baby, I was soaking in the atmosphere of the death of my NM's soul. Her lack of love, or what little she had.

Yesterday, I went to mass, it was soothing, I allowed myself to just soak in the peace of the atmosphere. But, then, towards the end of the mass I started to feel the overpowering urge to smoke. It was so painful. As I write this I can see what was going on...

Fear...I am still in the fear of familiarity. Love, peace and security were not my upbringing. When I go to church I sit in a place that intuitively feels infinitely safe - unlike my childhood. Over the years I have learned to soak in the mass and soak in the experience of peace and comfort that I find in scripture and prayer. But yesterday it was illuminated for me to see today that I am still not trusting enough from the bottom of my soul. That I am still hanging on and clinging to old fears, buried FOO fears.

This means back to the cross. It is there that I will find my death of self-absorbtion. However, I hear a voice of love and compassion within telling myself to stop beating myself up for being so self-absorbed. I hear the voices of those around me, sitting in judgement, soaking me in, shaking their heads at my disgrace of dysfunction. It is painful, it is a constant battle for me to be good to myself - to allow myself to just sink deeply into being self-absorbed or the loss of  unconditional acceptance for being self-absorbed so that I can be free of this wound.

The place of the wound is the place of healing - I am healing.

I'm normally not a selfish person in the sense that I fall so deeply into self as I have recently. I'm hanging onto that reality, the reality that I love others and love to get into their lives more than be in mine; for just right now I need and deserve to be in self in order to get out of self -- I am trying to turn off the voice that beats me constantly and give myself over to unconditional acceptance from within to accept myself messy, selffish, out of touch with reality, soaking, even smoking.

But I also know that one way, action, that combats the fears beyond my own self as self cannot overcome self, is just going to chapel, mass, turning my heart to prayer and being in a place that is safe and filled with the love of God, soaking it in. It will help take the stoney fleshy part of my heart out of my heart.

[Ami]

Dear (((Lise))))
 I was talking to Ray about just what you are saying. We, as wounded people with abusive, non loving, cold harsh NM's have to soak in love for ourselves, first, however we can.
 We can, simultaneoulsy, give love to others but NOT as a good/bad "have to".
 It is NOT selfish to love ourselves first. We must. If not we will get too blown away on our relationships. We will be too ruled by other's shame as I was by my Aunt last night.
 My loving myself first is the only way to walk in the world and give love to others with equanimity.
 Self love is not selfish but a neccessity for the walk that you want, a selfless one.
 It is a paradox like  other paradoxes. It is hard to see but once you do it makes the most sense.          XXOO   Ami

[Gabben]

Hi Ami --

Thanks, I am just writing out a lot of stuff rather than keeping it inside. It helps. Not seeking responses or anything from others but to give to myself the grief that I was not allowed to have, the shame that I was not allowed to own and the anger that I was not allowed to fully experience at the injustices I lived through.

Currently, there is no T in my life. I love my old spiritual director, the non-N. But I have not been able to afford him. I know that God has a purpose in that that will help me overcome and grow in ways beyond my current comprehension. We are not, according to the rules, supposed to use this board as a substitute for therapy, the board is meant to be a discussion on NPD. However, I have found that my discussing the N's in my life, the dynamics of N, breeds contempt in my soul as well as despair; I am trying to discuss my own Nishness in order to breed love.

[Meh]

I hope this doesn't sound preachy, but if you are allowed benefits and you wish to do any retraining you have to grab that opportunity fast, the gov. has a very short deadline for that, and they are serious about deadlines. I wish someone had told me that!