Author Topic: How is a Child to Know?  (Read 7840 times)

teartracks

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How is a Child to Know?
« on: August 20, 2009, 12:57:32 PM »

I think a child born and raised in a hostile (hostility can take many forms) environment (family or institution) loses his ability to recognize that gentleness, friendliness and favor exists in the external world.  Unwittingly (because he has lost his ability to recognize that goodness exists), he relates to friendliness and goodwill (not understanding the law of reciprocity in the healthy sense) the same way he relates to hostility.  The child, now an adult may  navigate his way through life with a measure of success using the set of examples he was taught in the family home.  He is basically applying the old, If it looks like a duck, meaning if it's another human,  then it must be like the humans he was raised by.  So believing that if you've seen one, you've seen them all, he uses a somewhat standardized (maybe with a few upgrades of his own),  version of the hostility he was taught by FOO,  when relating to others.  I think he is fully conditioned to accept the same treatment/relating (reciprocity) he experienced with his FOO.  To him, they're all DUCKS, including himself and he has been thoroughly indoctrinated on how you relate to a duck!   

In adulthood, he will most likely fall into the muddled mass of humanity that is called, 'normal'.  If his character falls toward the negative end of the 'normal' spectrum, he is apt to be viewed and labeled as your garden variety jerk.  If he is outside the spectrum of normal, sociopathy or psychopathy may be the outcome. 

I think this partly explains the conundrum of how people become who they are or the way they are.   

tt


sKePTiKal

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 02:02:47 PM »
And I think... you're very, very wise, tt. There is just so much common sense in what you've written.
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Izzy_*now*

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 03:35:00 PM »
Yes tt,

As the saying goes, "We learn by example". All examples in my first 5 years were my FOO, all fights & squabbles on an isolated farm. 'I'll make you sorry' (revenge), no love shown, disagreements (fights) meant that now you hated (acted like it anyway) the person, so little (if any) laughter and fun.

That being ingrained, now off to school  where "teacher and classmates became parent and siblings", and later on a job where "boss and co-workers became parent and siblings/teacher and classmates."

I can relate
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Izzy
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Lollie

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 11:51:21 PM »
Hi, Teartracks. I hope you remember me from the last time I posted on the board. I haven't reposted my story yet. (It just seems too huge an undertaking right now.)

I've been thinking about this post on and off all day, because it's a rich area for discussion and seems so complicated to me.

I think a child born and raised in a hostile (hostility can take many forms) environment (family or institution) loses his ability to recognize that gentleness, friendliness and favor exists in the external world.

 I was raised by a father with diagnosed, but untreated, borderline personality disorder, and a uNPD mother. It was an unrelentingly hostile and at times violent atmosphere. Somehow, though, I do remember some kindness and gentleness. There was a friend of my mother who sometimes paid me special attention (she would paint my nails or play cards with me). There were teachers along the way who were kind and encouraged me. Babysitters who showed me mercy. A few friends here and there who may not have known about my situation, but unknowingly offered me relief from it. They may seem like teeny tiny small things, but I held onto them for dear life. So I didn't completely lose the ability to find some gentleness and kindness in the external world. So your comment, in a way, made me feel a bit blessed.

Unwittingly (because he has lost his ability to recognize that goodness exists), he relates to friendliness and goodwill (not understanding the law of reciprocity in the healthy sense) the same way he relates to hostility. 

Sometimes I react to genuine friendliness and goodwill with surprise and bewilderment. Sometimes I react with gratitutde. A very small gesture will touch a part of me that aches and then my eyes well up with tears. (Another surprise!) Othertimes, I try to bat it away with "No, you don't have to" or "don't go to all that trouble" or "I'm fine." I do find it difficult to accept kindness. Not, I think, because I'm relating to it in the same way I relate to the hostility, but because the hostile envirnoment I grew up in convinced me that I don't deserve it.

The child, now an adult may  navigate his way through life with a measure of success using the set of examples he was taught in the family home.  He is basically applying the old, If it looks like a duck, meaning if it's another human,  then it must be like the humans he was raised by.  So believing that if you've seen one, you've seen them all, he uses a somewhat standardized (maybe with a few upgrades of his own),  version of the hostility he was taught by FOO,  when relating to others.  I think he is fully conditioned to accept the same treatment/relating (reciprocity) he experienced with his FOO.  To him, they're all DUCKS, including himself and he has been thoroughly indoctrinated on how you relate to a duck!   

I never wanted to be that way--to relate to others with the hostility I grew up with--so I have a tendency to turn myself inside out and go to great lengths to be helpful, gentle and kind to others at the expense of myself. I also turn a fair amount of that hostility I learned from my FOO on myself. I'm working on that. It's like pulling out really stubborn weeds, though.

I think this partly explains the conundrum of how people become who they are or the way they are.   

Your thoughts?






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teartracks

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2009, 12:56:43 AM »



Hi Iz,

Were you afraid at school?  Was school a positive improvement over FOO? 

tt





teartracks

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2009, 01:44:57 AM »



Hi lollie,

I do remember you.  I loved seeing that you were back  :)!

I agree that it is a complicated issue.  You bring up some interesting points.   Want to give discussion a go?

More tomorrow after a good sleep...

tt




teartracks

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2009, 04:03:11 PM »




Hi again lollie,

Still pursuing partial explanations ...I'll be writing in installments so bear with me.  My head is jellin on the good points you made. 

The person I talked about in the opening post is one whose being has been violated/traumatized by hostility to the point where he has lost and may never regain the ability to experience genuine self-awareness.  His inward awareness or self-awareness has been deconstructed and replaced by the examples set for him by those he is entrusted to.  The reality of it is IMO that from then on, his every thought is focused on survival.
 
This is not a person whose parent sits him down and says, son/daughter, I'd like to explain why it is good for you to follow my example of hostility.  So the child, not much older than five, is left to interpret his environment and the examples set before him.  Can you imagine a five year old explaining 'why' about much of anything?  Art Linkletter was famous for getting the opinions of children still in their naive stage.  Hilarious!   It's unimaginable that a child five and under could accurately interpret their environment.  Zoom forward to adulthood.  It's no wonder the damage is next to impossible to reverse.

tt





Izzy_*now*

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 04:07:18 PM »

Hi Iz,

Were you afraid at school?  Was school a positive improvement over FOO?  

tt



Hi tt,

I wrote what I did as I was always afraid of authority figures, and my peers (who I thought were better than I) as well as siblings.

It took a long time to learn some trust and I was betrayed a lot, so I feel now that I must depend on "the kindness of strangers" I believe it was my fault too for not being taught when very young, and there are still things I won't tell my siblings and certain 'friends', as I feel I will be criticized or that "whatever" will be blabbed elsewhere.

I am better off as I am, than to reestablish relationships with those who have 'abused' me.
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Portia

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2009, 04:38:33 PM »
TT: It's unimaginable that a child five and under could accurately interpret their environment.  Zoom forward to adulthood.  It's no wonder the damage is next to impossible to reverse.

I make a positive effort these days to be very kind to myself. When i remember. And it sure helps to know that a brain is just a brain - does stuff it can't help doing, sometimes. I try not to identify with those brain bits, but to examine them, afterwards. (Musing: will say that in everyday 3D this hardly ever happens, these days. It's usually triggered by virtual/remote written communication.)

Been reading this thread very carefully. Thank you.

teartracks

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2009, 04:59:32 PM »



Iz,

My besetting enemy was also fear. 

Don't you love it when the old blabometer kicks in and says, you don't have to tell them that or, it would be better not to make that statement, or be quiet and let the other person do the talking?

tt


Portia

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2009, 05:07:04 PM »
TT: you got me worried there for a moment.....
ps I actually got warmer! altho that could a mid-life moment...entirely possible.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 05:09:05 PM by Portia »

teartracks

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2009, 05:19:58 PM »



Portia,

It's good to know you're looking out for me!   :lol: 

What do you mean, And it sure helps to know that a brain is just a brain

tt

 

teartracks

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2009, 05:52:03 PM »

Hi lollie,

I was raised by a father with diagnosed, but untreated, borderline personality disorder, and a uNPD mother. It was an unrelentingly hostile and at times violent atmosphere. Somehow, though, I do remember some kindness and gentleness. There was a friend of my mother who sometimes paid me special attention (she would paint my nails or play cards with me). There were teachers along the way who were kind and encouraged me. Babysitters who showed me mercy. A few friends here and there who may not have known about my situation, but unknowingly offered me relief from it. They may seem like teeny tiny small things, but I held onto them for dear life. So I didn't completely lose the ability to find some gentleness and kindness in the external world. So your comment, in a way, made me feel a bit blessed.

My experience parallels yours re the kindnesses extended by others.   I can pull those kinds of memories forward, all five senses fully engaged.  

Even so, it begs to question whether those kinds of experiences superimposed over our old ways of thinking are powerful enough to set wrong thinking right and restore what was lost?

tt

    

  
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 10:26:09 PM by teartracks »

teartracks

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2009, 05:55:47 PM »
Hi lollie,

Sometimes I react to genuine friendliness and goodwill with surprise and bewilderment. Sometimes I react with gratitutde. A very small gesture will touch a part of me that aches and then my eyes well up with tears. (Another surprise!) Othertimes, I try to bat it away with "No, you don't have to" or "don't go to all that trouble" or "I'm fine." I do find it difficult to accept kindness. Not, I think, because I'm relating to it in the same way I relate to the hostility, but because the hostile envirnoment I grew up in convinced me that I don't deserve it.

I don't know...it's kind of which came first the chicken or the egg.   Could it be that the reactions you describe are  sub texts of the hostility/trauma issue?  


Othertimes, I try to bat it away with "No, you don't have to" or "don't go to all that trouble" or "I'm fine." I do find it difficult to accept kindness. Not, I think, because I'm relating to it in the same way I relate to the hostility, but because the hostile envirnoment I grew up in convinced me that I don't deserve it.

Could this be a veiled invitation for them to treat you badly or with hostility?

I also turn a fair amount of that hostility I learned from my FOO on myself.  

From the opening post: I think he is fully conditioned to accept the same treatment/relating (reciprocity) he experienced with his FOO. To him, they're all DUCKS, including himself and he has been thoroughly indoctrinated on how you relate to a duck!

I think this partly explains the conundrum of how people become who they are or the way they are.  

Those are my thoughts...

tt







« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 06:20:13 PM by teartracks »

bearwithme

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Re: How is a Child to Know?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2009, 06:04:44 PM »
Interesting.  So complicated this issue because our brains are mysterious organs.  They are loaded with neural pathways firing information to and fro at a million times per second.  A child's neural pathways are being laid down second by second, and as the child's brain grows, more and more pathways are set down layer by layer, cell by cell, neuron to neuron until the day comes when the brain stops working and dies, hopefully in old age and of natural causes.  So does a hostile environment hinder those pathways to grow to their fullest potential?  Maybe.

Did anyone see that Oprah show where the little girl was taken out of her home due to severe neglect and/or abuse.  I'm talking severe neglect--locked in a room devoid of sunlight fed cat food, slept with rats, ate her own feces, her body infested with mites and bugs, etc.  She was something like 10 or 12 but they discovered her mind was still that of an infant trying to obtain it's basic needs, like being held and carried, rocked to sleep, etc.  She could barely walk and didn't talk, only grunted.  Specialists determined her brain never developed the right pathways to grow.  Her brain had been deprived of love, affection, emotional coddling, being held, touching, being hand fed, humanistic feedback--all the things you need as an infant.  They said her brain just survived but had not developed properly to give her proper emotions, language, posture, warmth, feelings, etc, that of a normal child.  Her brain was significantly smaller than that of the average children her age.

When she was finally rescued and after being hospitalized for a while, a couple adopted her and gave her all the things she was missing in infancy.  I thought it was so amazing as the little girl wanted to be carried everywhere by the couple and held 24/7.  Here she was this tall 10 year old and these people were carrying her around like they would a baby.  Funny thing was, she reached out for that more than food and water.  

Don't know if this all makes sense.  I would like to know about the hostility and the child myself.  Scary to think that my brain wad deprived of certain nutrients in life, the kind you don't eat or drink....

Sad but it may be true.  I will keep on this as it is interesting to me.

Thanks tt for posting it.

Bear

P.S.  What does FOO stand for?