Author Topic: NM's birthday  (Read 10087 times)

Hopalong

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2009, 09:10:22 PM »
What THEY said.
CB and Pilgrim.

Wow. That's an eyeopener.

It sounds much much much healthier (and boundary savvy) to me to do that...to just LIVE and without overexplaining...

Jeez. Makes me realize I STILL have crappy boundaries.

Hops
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English

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2009, 03:30:20 AM »
Thanks everyone.  I agree it would be very unpleasant to tell her that I am going LC.  She would react badly.  My brother, who is a psychologist but works with addicts, said not to make her guess about the boundaries.  He said to tell her straight out that I am setting boundires, not to make her guess.  But he doesn't really have experience with NPD other than living with one during childhood. 

I'm leaning toward not saying anything to her mostly because of the fear.  Anyone else's advice would be welcome.

My main motivation about doing anything about anything is fear.  I avoid as many things as possible that make me afraid.  I have spent my whole life being afraid.  At almost 50 I'm still suffering from those "parents" that I lived with for only 18 years.  They are still controlling my life.  Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.  This is ridiculous.  These NF and NM damaged us and they still have control over me.  I hate it!  I want MY life to begin.  (I am NC with NF).  I mean 30 years later and I'm still "living" with my parents in my head.

binks

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2009, 05:52:18 AM »
Hi English

I tried LC earlier this year. I set clear boundaries, and NM went out of her way to break them. When her behaviour had less effect on me than usual she hit out at my family, including daughter, my husband and my father in law (My lovely mother in law had recently passed away)

I set new boundaries to very clearly include all of my family. She broke them again. I told her if she could keep to these boundaries I would continue to visit and phone her. She couldn't keep them. (The boundaries were essentially being polite to me and my family)

In the end I had to go no contact, to protect myself and my family.

So, in summary telling my NM about boundaries and having less contact was a spectacular failure in some ways. Looking back, it was for the best because NC works so well for all of us. I am happier and so is my husband. My daughter also decided to go NC (she is 20) She felt it was a moral decision.

HeartofPilgrimage

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2009, 10:42:09 AM »
Hi Hopalong and English,

Don't take me as an expert, please, it makes me nervous :) ...

But English, I expect that what your brother meant was, if you find your MOTHER's behavior unacceptable, don't make her guess ... tell her straight out that you are not going to sit there and tolerate bad behavior. But actually, YOUR behavior (going LC) is a CONSEQUENCE of her bad behavior ... and you don't have to announce what consequences you are going to impose, you just do it. In fact, keeping the N person guessing about what you're gonna do about it probably works better than announcing what the consequences will be! Of course, nothing works really well because they seldom get that they are the problem ... but in some cases, LC as a consequence works enough to make infrequent contact bearable.

Do you know the principles of reinforcement (a la behaviorism)? Operant conditioning works on the principle that whatever behavior is reinforced is more likely to be repeated. Reinforcement can be positive (a desirable response following the behavior) or negative (the withdrawal of something unpleasant). Punishment is the opposite of reinforcement --- behavior that is punished is less likely to recur.

Ns have punished us all our lives for what the rest of the world considers desirable behavior (having a mind of our own, having a life, etc.) and reinforced us for reading their minds and doing what they want. What makes them so confusing is their inconsistency. Sometimes a behavior is reinforced and sometimes it is punished. But, in general, we are all well-trained to pay close attention and try to read their minds, and to try not to make them mad.

Well, it's time to turn the tables. To reinforce the Ns in our lives for being nice and to punish them for being ugly to us. LC or NC is punishment, about the only punishment that is meaningful to them. If you scold them or berate them, or any of the other usual punishments given to badly-behaving adults, they don't get that the punishment really is related to their behavior. They see it as evidence that we're crazy or bad. There is a fundamental disconnect in their minds between their behavior and most of the consequences of their behavior.

The interesting thing is, you don't have to be AWARE of reinforcement or punishment for it to work. SO, since LC or NC is a meaningful punishment to them, they don't have to actually realize you're doing it on purpose. After awhile, subconsciously they will get the message that every time they do X, you don't call for a long time. For relatively mild Ns, sometimes this works.

BUT, IMO, even if it doesn't work, the main point of LC or NC anyway is the sanity and peace of YOU. So you are setting a boundary and if it works to get them to make nice on Christmas or whatever, great. If it doesn't work though, that's fine. The reason you are doing it is for you anyway.

I once announced to my mom that when I shut up and don't say anything, that means I disagree with her. That drove her crazy. However, the backlash of this is that eventually when she really really wanted to provoke me, she would just keep at me and keep at me until finally my temper blew. If I had never announced the meaning of my silence, she might have assumed she was right and let it go.

English

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2009, 08:13:51 AM »
Does anyone have this problem?  I'll go two weeks without talking to NM.  Then I start thinking-"she's not so bad.  i don't know why I have a problem with her.  She's OK. " Then I see her or talk to her and it starts all over again.  I want to avoid her at all costs.  Is this a survival mechanism forgetting how she has treated me?  Like right now I think she's been so nice and pleasant on the phone, but it's just an act that fools me every time; But she hurts me every tiime I see her.

Ami

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2009, 08:24:39 AM »
Dear (((English)))
 I have this ALL the time!                  xxoo Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

English

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2009, 03:29:04 AM »
OK, so I talked to NM yesterday on phone for the first time since my B the T talked to her.  He told her she said things to deliberately hurt people.  She said she didn't; that it wasn't intentional. (BS).  Then she talked about how sometimes she's just joking.  She gave several excuses.  She said people take what she says the wrong way.  She wants all of us to just point out to her when she does these things.  I said that she has said that my whole life.  She  replied that was for telling her when she tried to manipulate us.  That that was different.  I answered No, I have been telling her my whole life when she says something critical or manipulative and that it IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to tell her when she says hurtful things.  It is hers to stop herself before she says something.  She just doesn't get it.  She was SO remorseful (afraid of losing her NS).  Of course she "didn't mean to hurt anybody".  We just interpreted it the wrong way.

IT IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO TELL HER WHEN SHE HURTS ME!! IT IS HERS TO KEEP HER MOUTH SHUT!! THIS IS THE FRIGGIN MOST RIDICULOUS THING.  She sounded sooo sincere, but it was just an act. UGH!!!!!

Happy holidays and happy new year to all!

BonesMS

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2009, 07:02:59 AM »
OK, so I talked to NM yesterday on phone for the first time since my B the T talked to her.  He told her she said things to deliberately hurt people.  She said she didn't; that it wasn't intentional. (BS).  Then she talked about how sometimes she's just joking.  She gave several excuses.  She said people take what she says the wrong way.  She wants all of us to just point out to her when she does these things.  I said that she has said that my whole life.  She  replied that was for telling her when she tried to manipulate us.  That that was different.  I answered No, I have been telling her my whole life when she says something critical or manipulative and that it IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to tell her when she says hurtful things.  It is hers to stop herself before she says something.  She just doesn't get it.  She was SO remorseful (afraid of losing her NS).  Of course she "didn't mean to hurt anybody".  We just interpreted it the wrong way.

IT IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO TELL HER WHEN SHE HURTS ME!! IT IS HERS TO KEEP HER MOUTH SHUT!! THIS IS THE FRIGGIN MOST RIDICULOUS THING.  She sounded sooo sincere, but it was just an act. UGH!!!!!

Happy holidays and happy new year to all!

These N's just DON'T get it, no matter how many times we explain the OBVIOUS!!!!!   :P

Bones
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English

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2009, 08:38:42 AM »
Thanks Bones.   8)

BonesMS

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2009, 12:26:36 PM »
Thanks Bones.   8)

You're welcome, (((((((((((((((((English)))))))))))))))))))

Bones
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Hopalong

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2009, 07:18:05 PM »
Might as well keep telling her anyway, English,
even if she should be capable of having enough empathy to imagine how something will hurt...
she doesn't.

And although it will not change her behavior, calmly telling her each time will give you practice in having and using your voice.

For that alone, might as well...you think?

hugs,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

English

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2009, 04:50:16 AM »
Thanks Hops.  Yeah, I do need practice using my voice.  That's a good idea, and I can hear her response now.  "Oh, thank you for telling me." No I'm sorry.  She brags that people tell her when she says something wrong.  Somehow that feeds her NS.  She should feel ashamed and embarrassed, yet she feels pride.  Weeeiiiirrrrrrddd.  They're weird people.  weird, weird, weird,weird.

I don't use my voice very often with anyone. And when I'm angry with someone, I act passive-aggressively.  I don't tell someone something they need to know; I fail to do something someone wants me to do; I don't get angry often but when I do this is how I behave.  Yup, I need to find and use my voice.

Still Ticking

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Re: NM's birthday
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2009, 11:19:41 AM »
English, in my case, those opposing thoughts duking it out in my brain are what brought me to my knees... I was very happy to learn that there is a name for it.   It is called cognitive dissonance and researching it went a long way in helping me understand how and why I fell so low.  If you get a chance, goggle it.  It might help you understand that you are not going crazy.    :)

I don't think these thoughts take hold willy nilly.  I think for most, these thoughts take hold when the brain connects too many dots for it to rule out that opposing thought.  There are just too many contradictions.

Best of Luck with your mother, English.  I hope you find a solution that brings you peace.