Author Topic: A Hit Man or a Saint  (Read 2897 times)

Butterfly

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
A Hit Man or a Saint
« on: December 20, 2009, 09:33:13 PM »
My T commented once that some children who are raised under the very dark circumstances of having borderline or N parents may turn out out either wholly evil or wholly good--either "a hit man or a saint" was T's analogy.  I wonder whether most of us on this board are the "saints."  What say you?  

Joy
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 09:37:29 PM by Butterfly »

nolongeraslave

  • Guest
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2009, 09:56:13 PM »
I read that every narcissistic family HAS to have a sensitive and good person, so that the NP can have someone to meet their needs.  If everyone was a "hit man," the narcissistic parent wouldn't have any NS. 


Yeah, I can see the "hit man or saint" being true.  It's like how one child of an alcoholic starts drinking as well, but the other sibling avoids alcohol completely. 


CB123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 883
  • It's never to late to be what you might have been
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 12:33:35 AM »
I wonder whether most of us on this board are the "saints."  What say you?
 
Butterfly,
i would say that that is potentially dangerous thinking for the children of N's.  The black and white thinking that the world is divided up into "good" people and "bad" people actually puts us at risk of more abuse, IMO.  It has led me to gloss over bad behavior in someone because of previous good behavior--how can both exist when people are either hit men or saints?  I am forced to put someone in a category to know how to relate to them.  Quickly designating someone a saint is as dangerous as quickly designating them a hit man.

I am much more comfortable viewing people as a mixed bag.  Some areas of their lives are so messed up that they can do nothing but hurt others and so I have to limit contact.  But, they may still be very giving people in some areas.  I think that reason N's look so good to some people and so bad to others, is because they cant function uniformly in every situation.  I think that close, daily, personal contact with a child is way too stressful to be able to do for them.  Limited, controlled contact with people is doable.

Some people are psychopaths and they are very scarey.   We have all met them--and they are evil, the real hit men of your illustration.  Maybe I am negative, but I have never met a saint--either in 3-d or online.  And I am certain I am not one.  So, that leaves the vast majority of us in some area in the middle which requires each of us to be patiently discerning and careful with boundaries. 

My two cents...

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13619
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 08:38:12 AM »
CB,

I think you deserve 5 cents.

At a minimum.  :)

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Ami

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7820
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 02:18:33 PM »
I get the question, Butterfly. It is not that people are actual saints or bad guys but how we became polarized in the N household. I think most of us on the Board are saints ,in your question's terms, in that we try to be good people.
 We struggle with being kind in the face of abuse and all the N antics.
 I know that I gave waaay too much of the benefit of the doubt to people who hurt me.I was a saint in this way.I am trying to give up my sainthood cuz it was not real but part of the role I had to play in order to save my life with an out of control  sadistic NM.
 In reality,of course we  have all sides of the human emotional spectrum . However, when you grow up in an N household, you can be compelled to get one sided as your question expresses.
  It is a good insight((( Butterfly)))!                 xxoo   Ami


PS  Dr G's essays address this very issue. Some from N households become N's and some become Little Voices(selfless or little self i.e. "saints")
 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 09:03:00 PM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Butterfly

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 08:09:01 PM »
I wonder whether most of us on this board are the "saints."  What say you?
 
Butterfly,
i would say that that is potentially dangerous thinking for the children of N's.  The black and white thinking that the world is divided up into "good" people and "bad" people



It is not my "thinking," CB, but simply an analogy to showcase the effect of N parenting.  Often the "saint" is compliant and a do-gooder whereas the "hit man," as Ami mentioned, is another N.  I am wondering if this analogy fits others here, that's all. 

JustKathy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 08:28:40 PM »
In my family, there were three children, and I'd say we ended up in sort of a three-way split. I am the eldest, and my NM's target. I'm no saint, but I did grow up to be a do-gooder. I'm the one who adopts all of the animals from the shelter, gives way too much money to charity, does free work for people when I can't afford to, and so on.

My brother, the Golden Child, grew up to be a selfish piece of crap who cares for no one but himself. He expects everyone to give him money and gifts, but never reciprocates or even says thank you. He was raised wanting for nothing, and carried that into adulthood. He also married an N, who has verbally attacked both me and my sister, and he does nothing. He allows her to treat people like dirt, and just accepts it, much like my co-dependent father accepted my mother's behavior.

Which leaves my sister, who is the one in the middle. She's basically a vegetable. She saw NM abusing me, so became totally compliant. She does whatever she is told. She lives two doors down from them, works the career of M's choosing (which she is miserable in), and at 49, has never even dated. NM teases her about everything, so she just lives in her own tragic, isolated world. She's neither saint or hit-man. Just a puppet.

So I guess the theory is somewhat accurate, as my brother and I are polar opposites. I believe my sister got caught "in between" because she was never allowed to have autonomous thoughts, and never really developed into an adult.

Sealynx

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2009, 08:35:22 PM »
I think there are a lot of factors that determine what happens. Number of children and Birth order can mean a lot. I think that Hit Man or Saint assumes that nothing mitigates the abuse. Birth order and spacing as well as innate ability to nurture in the older children can change a great deal. What if there are several children and the oldest takes on a protector role? The more children involved the more abuse is likely to be spread out. The sex of children also affects behavior. Sometimes a male child will become the golden child and the female will be abused via neglect. I think there are too many alternative models to generalize.

JustKathy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2009, 08:55:44 PM »
Quote
The sex of children also affects behavior. Sometimes a male child will become the golden child and the female will be abused via neglect.

That's what happened in my family, though interestingly, my brother was an "accident," who came along later in life, so things could have gone differently. My NM had two girls, and my brother was born 12 years later. The unexpected appearance of a male heir instantly made him the Golden Child, and M's mistreatment of me immediately grew tenfold. I have to wonder how things would have turned out if the GC had never entered the picture. If the male child had not been born, I don't believe that either my sister or I would have emerged as the GC. I was the target, and she was the co-dependent, but neither of us received any special treatment. His birth completely changed the family dynamic.

Ami

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7820
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2009, 09:06:17 PM »
I wonder whether most of us on this board are the "saints."  What say you?
 
Butterfly,
i would say that that is potentially dangerous thinking for the children of N's.  The black and white thinking that the world is divided up into "good" people and "bad" people



It is not my "thinking," CB, but simply an analogy to showcase the effect of N parenting.  Often the "saint" is compliant and a do-gooder whereas the "hit man," as Ami mentioned, is another N.  I am wondering if this analogy fits others here, that's all.  


You are in good company with your question, Butterfly as our dear Dr G writes about the very same thing in his essays on the N family.
                    xxxooo  Ami
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 09:07:48 PM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

CB123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 883
  • It's never to late to be what you might have been
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 07:16:14 AM »
It is not my "thinking," CB, but simply an analogy to showcase the effect of N parenting.

Sorry, Butterfly.  I thought you were asking for opinions on your therapist's idea.

No offense intended.

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Sealynx

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 10:00:52 AM »
JustKathy,
My sister and I agree that if we had had a brother, we would have sold him into slavery in a third world country when no one was looking!! Having a male would have sent my fathers rather mild N traits over the top and mom would have forgotten we even existed.

Nonameanymore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2009, 12:09:17 PM »
I think at times I am neither and other times I am both...

P

HeartofPilgrimage

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2009, 11:59:54 AM »
I would agree with CB that it is better to think of us all as mixed bags. I do get what you mean though, Butterfly. You probably mean our "general tendencies" --- and some of us mixed bags have more nasty things mixed in than others!

I am reminded of another book I read by M. Scott Peck (2009) "Glimpses of the Devil." Whether or not you believe in the devil or in the exorcisms Peck describes, I was struck by something he reported happened during one exorcism. He asked the evil spirit about the patient's mother (whom the patient had consistently described as "evil"). The evil spirit acknowledged that the mother had been possessed ("By the time we got through with her, there was very little of her left"). Then Peck asked if the patient's father had been possessed. The evil spirit answered, "We had no hold on him, because he wasn't perfect." Peck said that he discerned a grain of truth in that statement (although it is never wise to trust an evil spirit! ;)) ... because an inability to tolerate the painful pinch of conscience is what sets the truly evil apart from the rest of humanity.

Again, I'm not asking you to believe Peck's account (although I do) but rather to ponder the meaning of the reported encounter. It's only in acknowledging our imperfection that we have the capacity to be a good human being. And perhaps that is what you meant, Butterfly, when you asked about "saints"? Those of us on this board struggle with our imperfections and woundedness, as opposed to sweeping it under the rug and pretending everything is fine.


mudpuppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1276
Re: A Hit Man or a Saint
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2009, 01:19:36 PM »
Quote
Maybe I am negative, but I have never met a saint--either in 3-d or online.

I met one once..........and then I married her.  :D

Oh, and Merry Christmas everyone!

mud
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 01:22:02 PM by mudpuppy »