religion & NPD

[Anonymous]

Good morning everybody,

I think religion is how we mortals muck up God's intent.  Religion and churchgoing are important, I feel, in order to feel support and a sense of community.  I used to worry about the hypocrites, but darn it, God loves them too.  But I can’t stand it when people use God as a weapon.

Honor what is honorable.  If the only thing you can honor is the fact that they brought you into the world, honor that.  That is, after all, a life-giving action.  My belief is that healthy people honor and support life.  Saying a few kind words to a stranger can be life-giving.  What is it about the church that sends off the message that people are sinners but they are perfect in the Parent Dept.????  Huh?  

There are different passages/stories in the Bible that tell parents to ease up.  Sorry I don't know my scripture backwards and forwards, but there is one about fathers do not criticize your children so that they will not be discouraged.  

As for the pastor-pressure, OnlyMe, you can tell him that he experiences your mother in a different way that must be positive for him, his community and for her, but that your experience with her has been anything but that.  Why should you continue to let your Nmom torture you?  It may be more lifegiving for both of you to stop the abuse by avoiding her.  Tell him that.  

Relationships are 100/100, so what has her contribution been to your relationship?  Also, the song that this siren is singing says "oh pastor, you are so wise, perhaps YOU can reach her" that is, you are so wonderful you can fix this. Rescue me.    Forgiveness doesn't mean condoning her treatment of you.  It means accepting the fact of it, feeling and then letting go of the anger.  

Ask him what he would tell a rape victim.  Would he expect the victim to trust the rapist?  Forgiveness for the victim would be to heal from the incredible harm, and move forward.  Perhaps to help other victims.  Tell him to look up narcissism on the internet to educate himself, and to stop perpetuating a bad and harmful situation for you, another child of God.

OK, having said all that (what a sermon! ) I am reminded of a New Yorker cartoon: there’s a drawing of a small house with a porch with a picket fence.  On the gate is a sign: Beware of Dog.  On the porch there’s the dog, smiling and holding a sign “Jesus loves you.”  
  Seeker

[OnlyMe]

Powerful Perspectives -
and powerful food for thought in all these postings.
You All offer so much wisdom which comes from experience, and helps sort out this ACON role and all the strings attached.
I have been struggling for so long with that Fifth Commandment - and now I think I can find some peace with it.  
Huge Thank You ((       )) from me to you.

ps: Seeker, next time I see NM's minister, I'll be ready - thx!!!

[Discounted Girl]

Hey momma, come here and let me pluck that log from your eye.  

[OnlyMe]

You can't pet a snake, nor can you turn your back on them.

Another fine quote for my "affirmations cue cards" !  

[Chica]

Fathers, do not exasperate your children,; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.  Ephesians 6:4

I just recently found this passage, I know it has always been there, but somehow I managed to read over it for the past 20+ years.  Parents have to treat us with respect as people, something my Nmom has never been able to do.  Also, this would require her to have to check her behavior or at least take some responsibility for it.  My Nmom always had me beliving that I would have to answer to God and be punished accordingly for my defiance.  I have lived in fear of eternal judgement my whole life, always being told that if I do not agree with her or remain loyal to her I will face judgement from God and be punished accordingly.  Now I realize what a strong hold she had on me by saying that to me for the past 28 years.  I finally have had to stand up to my Nmom because I have two younger brothers and she, of course, has been treating them the same.  She professes to be a strong Christian and that my step-dad (her x) and I are evil.  She has also told me and my brothers that she should have murdered us when she had the chance, because she has been given the most disloyal children on the planet.  I do not know if I have given advice or vented something that has bothered me my entire life.  Thanks for bringing up the point.

[Ellie]

...

[Overcomer]

Hey Guys:  Boy, this thread is right up my alley.  My mom had screwed up her life and got pregnant and married by 18, then divorced.  She was "saved" in a little church and found love and acceptance by the small congregation and the young pastors.

But somehow between then (love and grace) and now (shame and guilt) the whole thing has turned into a list of "we don't do's."  We don't drink, we don't smoke, we don't have premarital sex, we don't lie, we don't cheat, we don't steal..................we ALWAYS go to church every single week and if we don't, then we are bad.  We wear dresses to church.  We wear our hair like our mom and dress like our mom...............You see how it evolved to act like the perfect, Christian family.  And NEVER EVER question your parents.  Don't ever tell the family secrets.  At all costs make everyone think we are the perfect family.

Then somehow my brother and I had had enough.  I became a wiz at hiding all the stuff I was into.....my brother just didn't care.  I talked in an earlier thread about using visine, and spraying perfume on, and brushing my teeth, etc.  All to uphold the list of do's and don'ts.  And the weird thing about that is to this day (I'm 45 years old) I still kind of "hide" stuff.  Like I would never order a drink in front of my parents - or my oldest daughter because she is a carbon copy of my mother - first born, strong willed......................straight laced!

Oh, I could go on and on, too.  My whole life has been punctuated with religiosity.....................not real Christianity..................but religion...which I consider to be extremely lame and not authentic at all!!

[MB]

First, I want to say that I do believe in a higher power. I am not fond of formal religion. They are VERY different things.

Now, that said, I would like to share what I was thinking when I read this thread.

I am Jewish. So I read the who thread thinking how lucky I am only subjected HALF of the guilt verbage.

I still believe that in the end, we are judged by how we have lived more than by how we hae ritualized. I think we all have seen devout people who are really getting the message and the ones who are doing the motions to impress other people. Do not be too hard on the ministers and leaders who accept the "help" of the hypocrites. My opinion is that the truly devout are hoping that some of the meaning will eventually sink into their heads. Most seminary education (in all standard religions) includes quite a bit of study in counseling and mental health conditions. They really DO see the hypocrites. Like the snake...they keep them around where they can see them.

[Anonymous]

I still kind of "hide" stuff.  Like I would never order a drink in front of my parents - or my oldest daughter because she is a carbon copy of my mother - first born, strong willed......................straight laced!

I wouldn't order unkosher food in front of my parents either. So I'm a bit scared. And I'm protecting her because I eat all the stuff she said Jews couldn't eat. It's kind of a slap in her face - or so she would think. And I'm not into provoking her.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Most seminary education (in all standard religions) includes quite a bit of study in counseling and mental health conditions. They really DO see the hypocrites. Like the snake...they keep them around where they can see them.

I wish I could believe this about ministers, rabbis, etc. But I'm afraid they don't see the snakes and prefer not to see them. I think they have an "agenda" of maintaining the status quo, not rocking the boat, and not angering the powerful congregants. They don't keep the snakes around to control or supervise them. I don't think they have any power or influence over the Ns in their congregation.  

bunny

[Anonymous]

From Ellie - not logged in:

Funny some refer to snakes while speaking of religion. My grandparents were supposed to have ministered in a small church that used snake handling. Nparents refuse to admit it or talk about it. But they are of a similar religion with the speaking in tongues, etc. and think it's all perfectly normal.

[les]

Such a great thread - really appreciate the respectful voices all. Just saw the film - 'What the bleep do we know.'  How to describe it -an open, funny, expansive, spiritual exploration of human consciousness with particular emphasis on quantum physics. Highly recommend it.

Les

[Overcomer]

Hi All!  Gone for awhile, but back!  I agree with the thought about ministers and such not rocking the boat.  My mom and I went to her pastor for some counseling about three years ago...........we had had a blow up and realized that we needed some counsel.  

I realized about a half hour into the counseling that it was VERY one sided.  My mom gives the church a lot of money and I give nothing.  I told the pastor that I could see that he was being very careful to not say the wrong thing because he didn't want to put her tithe in jeopardy!!

I would say that going to your nparent's pastor for counseling might not be the way to go if you want fair and impartial counseling.  Not that he is a bad man, but he knows who butters his bread!!!  (And pays his paycheck)  Too bad these poor people who were "called" into the ministry get sucked up into this "try to please everyone" mentality!!

I wouldn't want to be a pastor.  It seems that these pharisees that call themselves Christians, give Christianity a bad name!!  And I suppose that happens with rabbis, too!!  Too many rules and regulations - a breeding ground for perfectionistic narcissists!~

[Lost]

I was raised in a fundamental Christian home and always knew something was wrong.  My Nfather is controlling, disrespectful to others (especially to women), inconsistent, and at times totally irrational.  He has always placed blame on me (or his other victims) whenever there was a problem.  My husband and I are Christians, and we find it difficult to see how anyone could read the same Bible that we do and walk away unchanged by the very Words of God--but they do.  And it seems that no matter what Scripture we use to confront my Nfather, he can come up with countless others to point the finger back at us and absolve himself of guilt.  

Since the birth of my daughter and a confrontation between my Nfather and my husband, my Nfather has managed to get the entire family to gang up on us--"seeking reconciliation" however, none of them are willing to listen to our concerns and issues.  We have read all the information online about N, and have come to the conclusion that this will probably never end, but for our own mental, emotional and spiritual health we need to get out! and get away from the control by proxy.  For the sake of our new family and for our daughter (we don't want her to experience what I did growing up).  It hurts that the people who calim to care the most, are actually the most detrimental to you, and when you try to explain that you are not angry at them, they project their emotions, feelings, and thoughts onto you and twist reality.

We just don't know what to do and we wish there was some way to let these people know that they are driving us away.  Help!

[Anonymous]

We just don't know what to do and we wish there was some way to let these people know that they are driving us away. Help!

Hi Lost, thanks for posting. An N doesn't care about you. Protect yourselves and stay away if you can. Do it for your daughter. Don't try to explain to anyone else as they will most likely not understand and it will make you look bad. Keep reading and learning.