N's are so convincing...

[swimmer]

My NM is so convincing.... that her brainwashing tapes run amok in my mind, it's driving me crazy.  

My NM has me convinced I'm the bad guy sometimes.  Her tricks are so smooth nobody in the family can really say.... "That was out of line" to her.  So I have this conversation going in my head like there is a judge there, and I'm too exhausted to explain what is really going on.  When I think about the truth, I feel really centered and good.  But this horrid conversation of my mom "convincing" me I'm wrong pops in my mind!!  

This is so hard now.  If I see my mother for what she really is, and even break the silence in my family... somehow the truth won't be true anymore in my mind.  All the things she did "nice" for me cover up the abuse.  When a mother does anything nice for a child, it shouldn't be used as a lever, right?  I'm trying to figure this out.... A normal mother would be nice and not expect the child to "remember" it.  Okay i'll try again.... If a mother is nice to a child.... What is supposed to happen next?  It should just be a memory then right, not a tool stuffed in a pocket for later use.  

This clarity feels so close yet I'm just not getting it.    

  

[Sealynx]

I find that N's aren't just convincing. They project a kind of certitude that is both intimidating and a form of security.

How often do you meet someone who tells you they are always 100 percent sure of everything? It breeds a false security that they use to control us and keep us thinking we are children who can not survive in the big world which only they fully understand.

Once I realized that my parents did not have a clue about the real world I went through a very scary time realizing that everything I'd been taught was part of their fantasy realm. They had each other so it worked for them. I had no one. As my sister often says. We aren't like other people and we never will be. We might as well have come from OZ or Wonderland.

[Twoapenny]

((((((((((((((((((Swimmer))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Our parents create the world around us when we are young.  What we learn at home is what we take to the outside world when we start school and later into work.  Our parents have complete control over us, plus, as children, we don't have anything else to compare our lives to so we accept what we are told without question and don't think of it as being unusual.  When I think of what I accepted as normal when I was a child and what I now would accept as normal the two couldn't be further apart.

It takes time to erase those old tapes and put in new ones.  Your mum didn't say things once or twice, she said them over and over again for years and years and years.  We used to do our times tables in school every morning, for three years straight.  That was twenty seven years ago, but I still remember those times tables.  When it's repeated often enough it sticks and it sticks hard.

If it's any help I have been NC for three years now and my mum's tapes are starting to fade.  They're still there and I can still hear them but I'm a lot more aware of them now, I challenge them and I have my own, newer tapes playing as well now.

One thing that helps me is the tapes I am making for my son.  I tell him he's clever, I tell him I love him, I call him a good boy.  I do 'nice' things for him because that's my responsibility as his mum.  I make him say thank you for presents or when we go to someone's house or a shop because that's good manners and I want him to be polite.  But I don't believe he should be eternally grateful to me for doing basic stuff like feeding him, clothing him and for looking after his health and his education.  He didn't choose to be born, that was down to me, so he doesn't owe me anything.  You know what?  A smile from him is all the thanks I need, and really, that's all most people need.  Working through it all is hard!  It's like finding out your whole ife is a lie and having to start again from who knows where, you've got nothing to ground it on so it's tough to find a start point.  My life has felt very muddled for a long time now but it's starting to clear.  I think it does get easier over time - it's just hard that it's such a long time!

Hugs to you xx

[swimmer]

Thx Sealynx & Twoapenny for thoughtful and hopeful thoughts!!!.. At work now & will post here soon:)

[JustKathy]

When I think of what I accepted as normal when I was a child and what I now would accept as normal the two couldn't be further apart.

Oh my gosh, yes! My mother did unspeakable things to me when I was kid, and I accepted all of it as normal. When I became a teen, I started to realize that things were not right, but as a young child I accepted that it was okay to be spanked for not giving a pre-rehearsed answer in class. It was okay to be spanked for telling my grandmother that I wanted to be a dog trainer and not a brain surgeon. Little kids give little kid answers to things. When little boys are asked what they want to be when they grow up, they all say "fireman," because that's where a 5-year-old's head is at. If I didn't say brain surgeon, I was punished. But I thought it was normal. I was bad. Mom told me to say brain surgeon, and I said dog trainer, so I deserved the spanking for being disobedient.

Looking back, it's mind boggling to think that I accepted this as normal, but we shouldn't blame ourselves for that. Children are like little pieces of modeling clay that can be shaped and manipulated any way the parent sees fit. How were we to know that we weren't being raised, we were being molded?

I'll echo what Twoapenny  said about going NC. It DOES help. I can't erase the tapes from early childhood, but going NC has stopped any new ones from entering my brain. I have absolutely NO regrets about going NC. It was an agonizing decision to make, but it was the best thing for me.

As for convincing, yeah, the smear campaign went into high gear after I went NC. My NM is incredibly convincing, but I just have to have faith that other family members will question what really happened. Children don't cut contact with their parents without just cause. An N can convince a stranger that they are an incredibly important person, but it doesn't always work on people who grew up around them.

[JustKathy]

When a mother does anything nice for a child, it shouldn't be used as a lever, right?  I'm trying to figure this out.... A normal mother would be nice and not expect the child to "remember" it.  Okay i'll try again.... If a mother is nice to a child.... What is supposed to happen next?

I understand what you're saying here. A parent should be kind to their child always. Sure, sometimes kids act up and punishment is in order, but the "nice" times should not be special events that we are reminded of over and over, and are used as leverage. In all honesty, I can't remember any nice things that my NM did for me. Maybe it was because it was so disingenuous, or maybe because the moments were so few and far between, or maybe because the nice moments became negative when they were used as weapons against me. I only remember the bad. That's it. Just the bad.

[swimmer]

JustKathy, I'm struggling with this as well... Only remembering bad memories.  You said it very well, that sabotage may have helped forget any nice memories if they did actually happen.  I feel like I'm horrible and like my mother for not focusing on anything nice.  Twoapenny mentioned here discovering her whole life she knew was a lie.  I'm discovering the deeper sense of love after having my daughter, and this is the childhood lie I'm facing.  Anyways.....

I'm really struggling with the good memories bad memories thing..... I really don't "feel" the love my mother gave me, I understand it intellectually.... but don't experience that deep connection I think daughters with normal moms feel.  Out of human respect I've always thanked my mother and gave her respect as she did "give" me things.  

I just get so concerned I can detatch so easily from her... I blame this on myself most of the time.  I think I'm realizing there as something seriously wrong with the "love" my mother had.  Many people touch my heart on a daily basis, but not really my mother..... I'm not sure I understand the connection I had with my mother at all.  Once I built my own life (had to move far away), she had to cut me down even worse... but it was never obvious until she had a hayday.  Every call and conversation she had with me was fake, reeling me in once again
 to "believe" in her distorted world.

There is so much there, I'm getting really close to a major realization about the connection with my mother.  I hope it will convince me a little more that I'm not so bad after all.  

[swimmer]

Sealynx, I can really relate to the first statement you made here about the certitude an N parent has about the world.  Before I went NC this last time, I remember I just never talked about ANYTHING around my mother and brother & stepfather sometimes.  Then I had and still have my life I've created for myself in which I can be myself.

  Anyways, my NM was so sure her way was right, AGAIN, but this time she was visiting myself, hubby and newborn daughter.   So I didn't let this one roll off my back, and let her have it for running down my friends, the city I live in, my church, me and my husband, the way we parent and even her own husband.... All under my roof with my budding family.  She had this certitude about her, and never excused her rudeness, after this....I  just let her go.  If she is that certain, so be it.  That is her planet, this is mine.... Find another home to spread your gospel to.  

[swimmer]

Twoapenny and JustKathy..... It's such a relief to hear about this and how it has worked out.  For me... The most horrible person I'll ever be is the one around my mother.  NC is not an easy choice, but it has helped already. 

[Twoapenny]

Twoapenny and JustKathy..... It's such a relief to hear about this and how it has worked out.  For me... The most horrible person I'll ever be is the one around my mother.  NC is not an easy choice, but it has helped already. 

Swimmer, this is exactly how I feel about my mum.  Around my mum I'm uptight and anxious on the inside, whilst putting on a show of having a great time on the outside.  Nothing about me is me around my mum, it's all about what she's expecting me to say or do.  It used to be that I'd have to spend two days getting geared up to see her, then put on this fake persona to cope with her on the day and then another week to two weeks to get back to normal again.  I just couldn't keep it up, it was too exhausting.

I didn't really notice how bad she made me feel until I moved away from the area and wasn't seeing her much or talking on the phone very often.  We had a big row and didn't speak for about three months, after which time I rang and apologised (as usual).  After we'd spoken I felt very down and fuzzy headed - and I realised that if that feeling were stronger and lasted for a couple of weeks it would be the clinical depression I'd had so many problems with before.  As I became more aware of how I felt after speaking with my mum I started to realise what a terribly negative effect she had on my life.  Once I realised she was affecting my health (and that this in turn is affecting my son) it became easier to cut her off.  My sister's doctor actually advised her to cut contact with our parents - when your GP is telling you not to see them you know it's bad.

[SilverLining]

I find that N's aren't just convincing. They project a kind of certitude that is both intimidating and a form of security.

For sure.  The N's in my experience seem to assume a godlike authority on just about any topic, as if they have special insight into the nature of things mere mortals can't access.   What they think is the truth, while what others think is just fallible opinion.   My father doesn't state opinions, he explains what things ARE.  This combined with a tendency to always oppose others makes him a difficult person to deal with, to say the least.    

This was one of the traumatizing behaviors of my FOO environment.  As a way of dealing with my father, I learned to simply shut up and not say much of anything.  Why state an opinion when it would inevitably be countered with the "truth"?  Only in my 30's and 40's did I start to realize how FOS the guy really is.  He doesn't understand much of anything, he just gets a charge out of expressing a counter opinion and belittling others. 

  

[Logy]

Sealynx,
Your post was golden.  Absolutely the experience of children in an N family.  I was so unprepared for reality when I left my family's home that I wonder how I made it with any sanity left.  Now when I am out in public with them and watch how they interact with others and each other, I just want to crawl under the table.  My date of birth is actually the day I moved out of their house.  I was a baby, learning everything as a 20 year old that I should have learned as a toddler.

My brother, 50 years old, has experienced the same thing recently.  He is the baby of the family, always coddled, convinced he could never survive without NM.  And has had a life where he failed at everything.  After all, that's all NM expected of him.  When he failed then she could be seen as the "rescuer".  He finally struck out on his own, didn't listen to NM, and is doing amazingly well.  NM tried to bring him down, pull him into her web.  I was finally blunt with him and told him what NM said to everyone behind his back.  He became an adult and rejected her opinion of him.  He is a different person around her now and is standing up for himself.  I think she now knows she doesn't control his opinion of himself and is doing everything she can to criticize his decisions, while at the same time making herself out to be his ONLY supporter. 

This sickness is just too sad.


Logy

[swimmer]

Twoapenny- that sounds like my experience as well.... getting geared up for visits and recovering.  Since I've had my daughter I just don't have the energy for that, you're right it's exhausting.  It's also such a crime of our souls, to be drug away from people who actually enjoy and depend on our company.  I came to the realization I can't be everywhere, and I'm not exposing or involving my sweet husband anymore.  A child should NEVER be in contact with an N parent for the sake of the N....only for the sake of being at peace themselves.