Author Topic: Trying to understand  (Read 2595 times)

Twoapenny

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Trying to understand
« on: March 15, 2010, 02:37:48 PM »
Hi Everyone,

Hope everyone is doing okay at the moment ((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))

I am relatively new to the whole NPD thing and some of the more subtle forms of abuse that often accompany it.  I'm trying to get my head around some of the terms I have read about and relate them to my own situation, just to help me understand it more.  Would really appreciate it if anyone can comment on whether I've got it or not!

For example - triangulation.  Is this when the N gets others to do the dirty work for them?  Ie:  my mum has made numerous accusations against me which have then resulted in me being investigated/ monitored etc.  Is this triangulation?  She's told people in the past that I'm dangerously ill and got them to call me and find out where I am, what I'm doing etc and then report back to her - is this triangulation?  she got most of my family to hate me, esp. my younger sister, because I'm so mean (to my mum).  Is that the kind of stuff?

Gas-lighting - I've found out over the years that a lot of what my mum told me about my dad's family - who I wasn't allowed to see - was untrue.  when I've tackled her about certain things over the years she's denied they happened or told me I've got the wrong end of the stick or I heard it wrong.  One time I was ill and in hospital and she told people I was too ill for visitors (which I wasn't).  The she went on about how she was the only one who bothered to come and visit me.  Is this gas-lighting?

THe last one is about sexual attitudes so it may offend or be too strong for some and I apologise for that.  We never discussed sex in a normal way - ie, what you did, contraception, when was the right time or anything like that.  My mum had at least two affairs with married men that I know of and there are rumours of more.  She and my step-dad used to spend all day having sex very loudly at the weekends and there was a lot of porn in the house, yet my mum never discussed sex with me at all.  She used to hint that men fancied me a lot when I was quite young (ie fifteen or sixteen).  She told me my sister's boyfriend (who has been her husband now for twendy years) fancied me and if we were out she used to say things like "oh that guy just looked you up and down".  I wasn't allowed to se my older brother from the age of 8 and tried to track him down when I was in my twenties.  I asked my mum if she thought he'd like to see me and she said "oh I'm sure he'd love to see you know" and gave this kind of suggestive wink.  It's hard to describe it in words but it felt like the implication was my own brother would fancy me.  Is this part of NPD?  Or is it another kind of gas-lighting thing?

Any thoughts or comments would be really helpful.

Thank you

Twoapenny

lighter

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2010, 03:17:54 PM »
Hey TP: 

Oh no, TP for short, won't do.  It's short for toilet paper this side of the pond.

Anyhoo, gaslight is when the N's require you deny reality, and insert theirs.

You see red, and they insist you see blue.

You feel cold, they insist you're actually quite hot.

I guess the term comes from the movie "Gasllight" in the 40's where the husband married a wealthy woman.  He tried to drive her crazy to take her estate, partly by messing with the gaslights in the house then telling the wife she was imaginging things when she mentioned it. 

It's an insidious form of emotional abuse, and very difficult to put your finger on, bc the abusers present themselves as loving and helpful when they do their dirtiest.

Not sure about the triangulation, but you're certainly on to your mom's craziness.


Portia

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2010, 06:25:35 PM »
Hi Twopenny

I'm doing okay and hope you are too  :)

Triangulation - when people assume the roles (or force on others the roles) of: persecutor, victim, rescuer. Lots of people play these games. Is your mom doing that? Not sure, but she's attempting to control you and possibly isolate you from others in her sphere of influence (control). She sounds a nasty piece of work.

The sexual attitudes part you describe I'd call covert sexual abuse. Maybe she's projecting her own image of herself, or an image she'd like to have of herself, straight on to you. The comment about your older brother liking to see you is so way out of line - and I do understand it and think your interpretation is right - suggests she has serious sexual boundary problems. It can be part of NPD I think, but does that matter if your mother has subjected you to abuse? It is abuse Twopenny. It's using you for her own twisted needs. I think your mother is very envious of you. But you are not alone. xx

river

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2010, 08:32:06 PM »
I would also call this sexual stuff abuse.  Its a) turning you into a sexaul object rather than relating to you as a human being.  b) its incestuous, its sexualising things/ people and you. 
Sex is meant to be a sacred thing arising as an expression of love and intimacy. 
do these things fit with what you sensed? 

Redhead Erin

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2010, 01:47:01 AM »
Hi, Twoapenny!

There are heaps of messages here about weird sexual abuse and quasi-abuse, similar to what you have described.  When I first came on the board, I was amazed to read all of that, because I had thought the sexual abuse I grew up with was some bizarre thing that was peculiar to my family.  How amazing t find out so many others went through similar strange experiences. 

N's are just so weird, but at the same time they all follow the same patterns.  The sexual abuse issue is a perfect example.  Probably most of them would not do anything that would constitute outright sexual contact. For example, most of them would not go directly to bed with a close relative, because that would obviously be incest.  But they do all these indirect things instead, like exposing children to porn, pimping them out to other relatives, being waaaaay to interested in their grown children's sex lives, and so on, that are still creepy and  inappropriate but so much harder to pin down.

Whether it really is or not, it certainly feels like the sexual abuse is just another way to make you feel violated without actually dirtying their hands. And it also seems like another way they are trying to to drive you crazy.

Twoapenny

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2010, 02:35:11 AM »
Hi Everyone,

Thanks for so many responses so quickly!

Hi, Mo2,

Anyhoo, gaslight is when the N's require you deny reality, and insert theirs.

You see red, and they insist you see blue.

You feel cold, they insist you're actually quite hot.

[/quote]

Okay, that makes sense to me.  She wants me to believe a certain thing about her (usually that she was this poor defenceless victim that everyone was so mean to) so she tells me all this stuff about other people in the family and what they do.  I never experienced anything but nice stuff from my dad and his side of the family and have nothing but nice memories of them - but according to my mum this was all an act and she was the only one being nice.  I remember different but she tells me they made me think that's what was happening when it wasn't.  She's told me I'm ill when i quite clearly wasn't and told goodness knows how many people my disabled son wasn't disabled - when he quite clearly was.  So I think the gas-lighting bit is starting to make sense.

Hi Portia,

Okay, the triangulation stuff i am finding harder to get my head around.  I hadn't thought of it as three different people being involved, unless you count my mum as being all three traingulation?  For example - she's made allegations about me for years, claiming that I am mentally ill and that my son's disability has been caused by neglect and emotional abuse.  So she would ring the doctor, health visitor, social worker or whoever with a tale of woe about being a terribly worried grannie whose mentally unstable daughter lives such a disasterously chaotic life that her son is failing to develop and has severe delays and a dysfunctional childhood.  She's scared of me and worried for her grandson - that's her being the victim.  She's also at the same time being the persecutor because what happens next is that the authorities get involved and investigate me, plus they report back to her constantly - so in a way she gets them to harass me rather than doing it herself.  At the same time she can play the rescuer because I didn't know she was doing this - so whilst all this stuff was going on she was being nice on the phone to me, coming to visit, sending money and presents and taking my boy out - so the crap time I was having (because of her) was made better by her being nice.  How disgusting.

Hi River and Erin,

Yep, I think what she did and how she was was sexually abusive.  It's so hard to pinpoint and put your finger on it but I am nothing like that about sex where my boy is concerned.  He's not old enough to want (or need) to know too much about it yet but he understands about the different parts of the body and about privacy and I respect his boundaries (ie because he's autistic he still needs help with a lot of stuff but if he says he wants to do something by himself then I respect that.  Him having a bath alone is a bit more difficullt because he has epilepsy and I worry he might have a seizure but I sit ouside the door and talk to him instead so I know he's still conscious!  But I get that he needs his own space and I am aware of how I behave around him.

Thanks everybody - that's given me loads to think about and it helps me straighten things in my head when I read what other people think and then think about my own stuff when i write back.  Thank you to everyone.

Hugs,

Twoapenny ()

HeartofPilgrimage

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 08:04:27 AM »
Hi 2AP,

If we have to put labels on things, your Nmom probably has engaged in triangulation with all of the professionals ... she plays the victim so that they play the rescuer and you get stuck in the part of "persecutor." Usually however the term is used when all 3 people in the triangle are involved personally (rather than the "professional rescuers" like doctors etc.). But that doesn't mean that an N can't abuse the system by lying to professionals to make her little triangle work.

First of all, in triangulation realize that these are "roles" that people play --- they don't necessarily represent any form of "truth." That said, both the person playing the victim and the person cast in the role of persecutor see themselves as victim. The rescuer is the third person, and sees him/herself as the "knight in shining armor." Sometimes the rescuer gets really invested in seeing one person as the victim --- because if they wake up and realize that their "victim" is really persecutory --- that would jeopardize their own self-image as a knight in shining armor.

One explanation of the "victim triangle" (aka "drama triangle") says that the way off the triangle is, ironically, through the persecutor position. In other words --- you start refusing to play the game. The rescuer and the victim-player will see you as a persecutor because you are disengaging. You stop seeing yourself as EITHER victim or persecutor.

I am learning A LOT about stepping off the victim triangle. I have posted a lot about my daughter's emotional problems and how she sees herself as a victim --- and I am the persecutor, and her father is the rescuer. I actually FEEL like a victim too (consistent with the victim-triangle theory) ... but I have been learning lately to step off the triangle. To quit engaging in things that make daughter and dad see me as persecutor and that make me feel victimized all over again. To quit participating in this stupid dance. Not easy --- at first it makes you feel like you're not taking up for yourself, and your "victim" on the triangle will see your disengagement as persecution in and of itself ... but I have found the cliche to be true:

THE ONLY WAY TO WIN AT A GAME OF ONE-UPMANSHIP IS NOT TO PLAY.

Lucky

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2010, 09:47:31 AM »
Hello Twoapenny, maybe this helps a bit:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1089008
One-upmanship is the first (and, most common) red flag for narcissism, malignant narcissism, and full-blown NPD. This is when someone close to the NPD might be having a physical or emotional issue and the NPD will express what they believe to be an empathetic response with a backhanded remark about how much worse their condition is, whether it exists or not. An example of this might be the non-NPD comes home after work and says, "Gosh, I sure had a bad day and my head is just splitting." The NPD might respond with something along the lines of, "Gee, that's too bad. My eyes feel like they're going to pop right out of my head! There was this incident at the convenience store, today..." The non-NPD is often denied the opportunity to vent or describe their episode or pain as the NPD verbally muscles their way into (and, over) the non-NPD. The NPD is always having a worse time than anyone else and often invents physical ailments to prove their point. Nobody could be in more pain than the NPD. And, this also includes "positive" episodes. One-upmanship goes both ways: the NPD has more money (often, untrue), more material possessions (often true due to very poor financial control), more education, etc., etc
Withold/reward is the system of baiting, luring, and snagging a narcissistic supply source. Like a bait worm, compliments, attention, affection, simple daily needs, financial needs, etc., are dangled in front of the non-NPD. The lure is the empty promise that the NPD will fulfill the need ONLY if the non-NPD will comply with the demands of the NPD. "If you lose the weight, I'll buy you a new wardrobe," or, "I won't be able to pay our electric bill unless you 'borrow' some money from your parents," or, "If you convert to my religion, you can take the kids to (church, synagogue, etc.)" or, "It would be so easy for me to love you more if you would stop complaining about your arthritis," or, "I'm not feeling well and you need to call the dentist and cancel my appointment." What's so bad about canceling an appointment for someone? It's a refusal by an adult to take control of their own responsibilities - this is one of the most insidious tactics and the end result (though subconscious) is that the non-NPD ultimately is made to feel that they are responsible for the choices and responsibilities of the NPD.

It is very important to recognize the language of true empathy and discern it from the empty language of false empathy. Comments about the inadequacies of unknown individuals (i.e., victims of domestic violence somehow causing their own beatings, etc.), or demeaning descriptions of "friends" or family members, and constant disdain for the suffering (or, successes) of others are typical behaviors from the NPD. The false empathy is expressed only when it will suit the needs of the NPD. They might openly weep and expect that their tears identify what a "feeling" person they are to express sorrow, remorse, etc. The tears are shut off as quickly as they begin with very little residual effect - the NPD goes on with whatever they were doing without missing a beat.

A person either has empathy or, they don't. The difference between an NPD and a person who does not have empathy is that the NPD uses what they believe to be an empathetic response or demonstration to suit their own needs and NOT the needs of those who are expressing their emotions.

The NPD cannot be negotiated with - any negotiations will be honored on their terms and they will maintain the control over any negotiating, at all times. The NPD has no sense of "fair play." There is no reasoning with an NPD - that which is obviously reasonable and well within social boundaries is not recognized by the NPD, nor do they believe that it applies to them. There is no closure from a relationship with an NPD - whether the relationship is romantic, family-oriented, platonic, or social, the NPD will not easily allow their supply sources a quick exit from the relationship. They will use withold/reward to keep their supplies dangling, some times for decades. There is no "having the last word" over an NPD - they will always be the ones to hang up the phone and then text-message hours later to get the whole thing rolling, again. They will be the ones who turn their backs, first, and leave the non-NPD wondering what it was that they did to warrant such treatment - another common withold/reward tactic. If one is forced to interact with an NPD, it is probably a good idea to keep all emotional information to one's Self - any crumb or grain of information provided by the non-NPD will be used, distorted, overblown, and/or twisted for maximum mileage by the NPD. Keeping contact on a very superficial, business-like level is the best method of dealing with an NPD if there is no other alternative.

Can an NPD be healed or cured? The statistics on a successful "cure" are grim - most NPD's believe that they are superior and above the standards of others. Rules, boundaries, ethics, morals, accountability, responsibility, and consequences do not apply to them, in their minds. Because NPD is a personality disorder and not an organic mental disorder, there are no medications to treat NPD. Individual, group, and support counseling have been successful in moving an NPD towards humanity, but it is an extremely rare occurance and requires years of counseling/therapy to begin the transition. Most NPD's will never seek to cure themselves during their lifetime...

Twoapenny

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2010, 04:18:59 PM »
Hi HoP,

Wow, this is complicated stuff!  I am hoping to go for a psych evaluation soon to put an end to the accusations that my mum keeps making - I figured if I can see a doctor and explain the whole situation and get an assessment from them that says I don't have these problems my mum keeps saying I do that it would help, both in terms of making sure current records are accurate and as a defence in the future.  Then I started thinking about explaining the family situation and what my mum does and it's so complicated and so hard to explain that I thought if I understood the terms and could say things like "oh she triangulates and there was a lot of gas-lighting" and so on that it would be easier.  But the more I've read and the more I've tried to apply it to my own situation the more confusing it's got!  I just was feeling really sad today that she's such a crap mum.  I wouldn't mind as much if she was crap and left me alone but she's crap and she's still part of my life even though I cut her out, which is crazy!  Thanks for all you wrote, I am going to keep reading and trying to figure my head out but I think I will avoid trying to be technical with the psychiatrist because I might complicate things!

Twoapenny

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2010, 04:32:58 PM »
Hi Lucky,

I've read that article twice now, it is very good but it is making me cry!  There is so much in there that I identified with - the one-upmanship, the withhold and reward, the empathy and the inability to negotiate - all rang really true.  Will read it again, there's a lot in there and it's really got me thinking.

Thanks for posting it, will post more later xx

Logy

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2010, 06:04:21 PM »
Lucky,
Your post and that article is right on the money!!!  Exactly my experiences with my NM.

I don't remembering reading any articles about N's and this, but my NM has a COMPLETE lack of self-awareness.  Her opinions, her preferences, her allegiances, shift with the wind and constantly keep us guessing.  But she is 100% correct in whatever image she is projecting at the time.  And if you call her on something she said in the past that contradicts her current image, you are told that you are imagining it, you made it up, she NEVER did that.  Reality for her is whatever she makes up at the moment.

Heart, you are so right!  You have got to put away your dice and quit playing the game.  Very difficult for a young person trying to get their arms around all this.  After all, this is all you have known from birth.  It was your normal, it was the person you gave your innocent trust to.  I thought "why would my mother NOT have my best interests in mind?"  Finally learned that she was sick.  And that doesn't mean that I have to be sick too.  It involved cutting a cord and letting go of those illusions of normalcy.  Got a handle on reality, my reality. 

I am lucky enough to have siblings and in-laws who understand.  The support is invaluable and validating. 

Twoapenny, thanks for the thread.  Hope it helps you understand.  It is very validating for me.

Hugs, Logy 

Twoapenny

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2010, 02:40:17 PM »
Hi Logy,

Your description of your mum sounds exactly like mine!  She has no core values or beliefs; she reminds me of the Terminator movie, you know the one with the guy who's liquid metal and becomes anything he touches?  She's like that; creates a persona to suit, trick or mesmerise whoever she is working on and then flips back when that persona isn't useful any longer.

My mum was helping me move house once and was sitting in the front room refusing to speak or even look at anyone.  If she was asked a question she made out she didn't hear it and if asked again she spoke as if dazed and confused and not really sure what was going on.  A friend of mine arrived and it was like a switch being flicked; she leapt up, kissed him on both cheeks and started chatting away, making jokes and hauling boxes out to the van.  Once the van was loaded she simply walked out without even bothering to say goodbye to anyone.

She has no morals or codes of behaviour.  We all vary to a degree; we're a bit snappier if we've had a bad day or our period is due or are a bit more cheerful if we've been out on a fab date or come into some money unexpectedly.  But generally speaking our personalities are fairly constant.  the more I think about her in an objective way, and the more I read about various things, the more I realise she is a dirty, disgusting, wicked creature who has caused so much pain for many people in her life.  I am so glad I don't have anything to do with her anymore.

SilverLining

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2010, 01:36:48 PM »

I don't remembering reading any articles about N's and this, but my NM has a COMPLETE lack of self-awareness.  Her opinions, her preferences, her allegiances, shift with the wind and constantly keep us guessing.  But she is 100% correct in whatever image she is projecting at the time.  And if you call her on something she said in the past that contradicts her current image, you are told that you are imagining it, you made it up, she NEVER did that.  Reality for her is whatever she makes up at the moment.


Hi Logy.  This is very familiar to me.  N's seem to be in a constant process of creating themselves out of whatever outside material is available.   My father is a quiet N , and he appropriates much of his "self" from books.  He takes written ideas and repeats them as if they are his own creation and philosophy.  When he has a new idea, he gets excited for a couple of weeks as if he's found the answer to the world's problems (which makes him superior to most everybody else).  But then it fades away and he's off for more supply.   He's constantly reading, but he never develops any real expertise or understanding. 

One of the few consistencies to his personality is opposition.  He is a genius at coming up with counterpoints or dismissals of anything others have to say, even if he contradicts his own supposed values of the day before or even 15 minutes before.   Self awareness is completely lacking. 







     

Logy

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2010, 08:11:23 PM »
Silver,
Had to chuckle about your comment because it reminded me of when Dr. Phil first came on TV.  NM watched it everyday and would interject his comments into almost every conversation (although never giving him the credit).  My sister and I began saying "NM gave a Dr. Philism to me today".  We KNEW she didn't come up with this on her own.  Does she think we are stupid???  Oh yeah, I forgot, she does.    :o :lol:

swimmer

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Re: Trying to understand
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2010, 08:56:55 PM »
After reading the last few posts.... I was reminded of how my Dad's nickname for my mother was "Goody".  My mom pretended to have this high moral standing of someone who was perfect.  She claimed to be innocent and didn't know what the word f*** meant till she was 33 years old.  She was like gold when I as little, and slowly over my childhood the truth leaked out.