Whose life is in danger....

[Meh]

I've had similar feelings for the past couple years, Izzy.

That things are going to get very upside down.

When you say that things are going to get very upside down Mo2, that resonates with me. This morning while I was walking down the sidewalk I was considering how human logic/minds, seem to have undergone a "a gravitational polar shift" of logic.

After reading this post yesterday about the oil spill, I had a dream last night about a baby dolphin I found out of water laying dehydrated under a table.

For some reason, intuitively speaking I don't feel bad about the overall outcome of the oil spill (not to be rude to the people who are living in the disaster area), but I sense that possibly this will be a so called "tipping point" that Americans so desperately need. It is such a visable dirty mess, maybe, unfortunately something really bad has to happen before people WAKE the F UP. Humanity as a whole needs to become disgusted enough with itself?

Some say that there will be a whole generation of cancers that result from this mess resulting from the carcinogens precipitating up and back out through the weather patterns....Who knows?

Some say the humans who can live through all of our own pollution will be the "new species of humans" with the right genetic traits to survive into the future....?

FAST PROFIT at any human or environmental cost is NAR-Behavior isn't it? Because there is no consideration for the consequences even to the greater community. Communities are suppose to be self-regulating. Are they not?

Have humans grown into such a large mass that they can not truly self-regulate?

I would imagine that in a tribal unit when the greater health or wellbeing of the whole community is jeopardized by one of the members that member loses social status within that community......??

BP, should lose respect, but it wont turn out that way because it's as if the large companies are the chiefs of the community.

Not only is the environment unhealthy, its unhealthy for the humans, it results from unhealthy community self regulating behaviors.

I have no idea. The other day I was in a cafe, a couple let their two little boys pee all over the floor in the restroom, the father walked in and saw what they had done. Then I used the restroom. The father didn't even bother to grab a paper towel and wipe the floor up where the two boys had managed to piss all across the floor of the whole restroom?? I mean not just a dribble but a water pistol shoot-out in the bathroom. The mentality???

People have just lost any type of social etiquette and self respect or respect for others. IT's the modern culture.

[sKePTiKal]

Muffin Buster, your point about community is (I think) the key. What used to be known as the "common good" for neighborhoods, small towns, cities, states & the country as a whole has been wiped out in the tension between that basic concept and individualism - an "every man, woman & child for themselves" attitude. Where "I" matter more than "Us".

The same kind of balancing act or tension exists between individual boundaries and FOOs, too. Sometimes "Us" takes over and consumes or overrides an "I"... and vice versa.

What troubles me greatly, in observing our government in action, is precisely the same kinds of dysfunction that we discuss here on a more personal scale. It seems there must always be a scapegoat - someone to "blame" - and even after that entity has been tarred & feathered in the media and fined, the government denies any responsibility for their own blindness in oversight, no "we didn't even think of that possibility", or "OOOPS! We made a mistake and that [fill in the blank] decision|law|regulation or lack thereof obviously set up conditions for what happened later." No, "we're sorry" ... ever... from the government, for it's own participation, collaboration, or manipulation that contributed to a problem or exacerbated it.

Also troubling, is the expansion of the role government (in general) seems to be attributing to itself.  As if, ordinary people and business owners are unable to take care of themselves and regulate themselves within commonly acceptable standards. (of course not - they need scapegoats!!) And while there are extensive arguments for that position... when you start asking "why can't these people take care of themselves"? You begin to see where the government's policies and this expansion of it's role (intrusion, to my way of thinking) into our own self-sufficiency is actually fostering a society that is dependent on a patriarchal government that isn't truly fit for the role it's aggrandizing attitude is attempting to impose on it's citizens.

Traditionally, the role of government is rather limited: national security, interstate commerce, etc. And it was the Community as a self-sufficient living breathing entity that regulated, prescribed, nurtured, and supported itself with the resources available to it. I think there needs to be revival of terminally-ill concept of community... a "get to know your neighbor" campaign... a lending a helping hand movement (without expectation of glory or recompense)... a "we're all in this together" grassroots movement to take care of each other, and by so doing - mutually prosper.

OK, that's it. All I have to say on this subject... y'all can have the soapbox back now.

[mudpuppy]

After reading this thread I think I'll grow a long scraggly beard and start walking around with one of those "The End is Near!" signs.
Personally I'm neither a socialist nor a fascist; I'm a Neumanist:
 
 
mud

[Sealynx]

PR,
I was reading something the other day and I can't even tell you where at this point. Probably some article from the NY Times. It made a good point. It said that our greatest mathematical minds used to create things, now many of these geniuses are creating financial instruments on Wall Street. They are the ones coming up with brilliant strategies like betting on the failure of their own instruments to make money regardless of what happens.

These geniuses are the reason we need regulations. We are no longer dealing with what the "common man" or the "average person" can understand. Most people aren't even able to tell you the exact terms of their cell phone contract (try to get a hard copy-they won't give you one!!).  How many ordinary people whose only  "loan education" came from a banking officer, agreed to impossible terms they could not possibly adhere to and lost their homes? Life has become much too complex to navigate without intelligent oversight by a neutral agency. We can't all be experts on finance, pesticides, the lead content of children's toys, and whether a drug is safe. We can no longer trust corporations to do this for us. They have a team of lawyers ready to cover their tracks even when caught red handed.

We have come to a point where we can't trust corporations to treat us fairly and even when government regulations exist big corporations circumvent them by having their people appointed to make only regulations that favor them. They even intimidate those on a local level who would try to protect us. Look at the doctors who have come forward complaining that lAVANDIA was harming their patients? Letters were sent to their hospitals telling them to stop these physicians from speaking out against the harm they were seeing. I now wonder if my own father's heart condition was not caused by this drug!

The recent supreme court decision stating that corporations have the same rights as people is especially frightening. How many of us can afford our own lobbyists to make deals in Washington? The problem is that people do not have the same rights or access to knowledge and consultants that corporations have. We need to have someone in our corner who can truly provide the kind of advice that leads to informed consent. That means an independent advisory board that can see through the spin, control the self-serving legal agreements and afford us some protection to freely live our lives. Unfortunately there is no money to be made in doing this and corporations have the money to out gun individuals who speak out as they did with the physicians. We need honest government made up of common people with uncommon dedication and we can expect that should they run, they will be subjected to smear campaigns of every sort by those who want to "maintain" control of our regulatory bodies.

[Izzy_*now*]

I appreciate everyone's response on this thread. You are saying what I have going around in my mind, but don't have the ability to put to paper. I live in my thoughts, more or less.

With one Narcisssit, he can put such a spin on an issue, that it make you feel nuts, and stupid, and can seem beyond you.

With the highly educated, yes... they have such insight into everything, it seems, and it is beyond us. They really know how to be evil crooks and cover their butts.

In both cases it is about power and control.

I've thought, perhaps would say, if there are family members who fight, or neighbours who fight, it just gets bigger so that countries fight (war) but after all my research online, I see that there just has to be CONTROL, of everyone by the CORPORATIONS, which are inter-owned by all the billionaires in the world (The Illuminati) and it appears they have no empathy, so they have no problem killing millions of people at a time. I can only go by what I read, see on videos, and hear on internet radio, but who to really belive. I just believe that so many past events were staged--my suspicions arose with JFK's assissination. Since all possibilties for the reasoning of that, and the people involved have been released, I began to take more notice, and I wonder how we will fare, what we can do.

Can the USA start another revolution?

It disturbs me to hear that all the young Americans are overseas fighting the war(s) while Russian  and German? soldiers are present in Canada and the USA, at the ready for killing us, as Americans might find difficult to do.

Is Florida really going to disappear into the ocean?  That is horrendous!!!! Perhaaps G-d meant for that oil to remain there undisturbed!

Then I hear that oil runs under the earth as far as California and it, as well, can drop into the earth---Google  'sinkholes'. It's awful. Unbelievable until one sees a picture.

So I think of the N I was with, the N my daughter married and the end result is.... we are all equal when it comes to the threat that is hanging over our heads! There is no way these individual Ns can be superior to/exempted from ... what is happening!

Being that I live alone, I must depend upon the kindness of strangers, or in this case, a validation on a forum of strangers that there are others who feel the threat/the evil that exists.

Thank You
Izzy

[Izzy_*now*]

This is a Youtube link, to part 1, that helps me settle down because of the calmness with which these men discuss the situation. There are 12 parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJWLbgsOfLE 

[sKePTiKal]

LOL mud!! If we couldn't laugh, we'd all go insane!

I really don't think the situation is nearly as dire as the propaganda makes it sound. The problem is, though: believing in the propaganda. Who said: "T'ain't necessarily so"? I want to shake his/her hand and buy him/her a beverage.

[lighter]

After reading this thread I think I'll grow a long scraggly beard and start walking around with one of those "The End is Near!" signs.
Personally I'm neither a socialist nor a fascist; I'm a Neumanist:
 
 
mud

YES, Mud! 

We were missing the scraggly sign carrying bearded guy; )

[Logy]

Sealynx,
Your comment about why we need regulations  "These geniuses are the reason we need regulations."

We do need the regulations to control corporations.  But then we also criticize the politicians who work for more regulations. 

Seems like the goal of government and corporations is to make us all so crazy and confused.  This whole thing reminds me of my N family and their toxic behavior.  The corporation has their culture and they groom their employees.  The political parties have their rants and indoctrinate their followers with slogans.

Maybe I'm looking through those rose-colored glasses.  I believe in the human spirit and strength.  It's all a circle.  The circle of life.  As it has been with my own life.  Surging forward, feeling strength.  Meeting an obstacle, being pushed back, feeling bad.  Overcoming it, feeling good.  Surging forward, feeling strength.  Meeting an obstacle..................and on and on.  And on.

Maybe modern man just wants things too easy.  Or maybe having things too easy has made us restless.

[Sealynx]

Logy,
Most of the things we don't understand are not part of the circle of life. When the banks supposedly went under (only to take our billions and pay bonuses!) the birds still sang, food still grew and water still flowed. The problem is that we have a culture that bears no resemblance to nature. If you think about it, unless a person has money they can't even run off into the forest and live like an American Indian. They'd be arrested as a vagrant and fined for hunting and fishing without a license!!

Most people also don't understand how marketing and PR work though the gulf oil spill has given some valuable lessons. I've heard more die hard Dems and Reps saying they now don't believe either side has the answer. To me that is good news. Both sides appealed to emotion rather than providing real solutions and as things stand they always oppose each other rather than trying to find the best solution. It is like asking Toyota to say Nissan makes a good car.

Politicians also pick simple emotional issues to campaign on rather than talking about the hard stuff. Real health care reform would be too much of a threat to corporate medicine and big insurance. Real financial reform would be too much of a threat to Wall Street firms. So they do simple things that in the end don't do much but sound good to the average person. Amazon has a really good Video on Demand right now called Money Medicine. It costs $1.99 to watch and talks about some very interesting topics in medicine that most folks have never thought about and no politician will be discussing any time soon.

[Meh]

the birds still sang, food still grew and water still flowed. The problem is that we have a culture that bears no resemblance to nature. If you think about it, unless a person has money they can't even run off into the forest and live like an American Indian. They'd be arrested as a vagrant and fined for hunting and fishing without a license!!

Americans boast about the ideal of Freedom though despite the above statement. People seem to hang on to the word freedom, but I don't even know what the greater philosophy behind "American Freedom" is. I'm not a history buff. I think it would be a good thing for an author to write about, the evolution of so called American Freedom. 

Humans have domesticated themselves just like live stock are domesticated. Feral humans would be threatening to the social structure. A person can't even dance weird without drawing attention and ridicule, there is no stepping out of line.

I've been reading about two different families who both moved from the big city and into rural areas to start farming and they MUST have other sources of income to live a rural life. They are not really making a living off of the land, instead they have hobby-farms. It is quite expensive for them to "live close to the land", playing at being "self sufficient". It seems to be a privilege to play at living a simple, "humble" life.

Modern life seems to be a web of entanglement of contrived complications that only can be escaped with the aid of money, private airplanes and lawyers. Modern life is a game for the wealthy from my perspective, but that is how humanity has always been. A game, played and won by the wealthy, the soldiers, the worker-bees, the peasants, the scapegoats, the grunts, the laborers are not pulling the strings.

 

[Meh]

Seems like the goal of government and corporations is to make us all so crazy and confused. 

Yes, I think it is to their benefit to have a public that is disoriented, unfocused, distracted.

What is quite ironic to me is that these people who are top-level employees at these companies that exploit the natural resources are also the people who own multiple houses nestled in expensive excluded communities in the most beautiful pristine areas, they do own yachts that they take through beautiful oceans and they own sail boats. They simply don't sail through the gulf oil-spill, they go somewhere else. They ruin the environment and make people sick but they can afford to travel to wonderful places where THEY can breath fresh air and drink clean water. They have the best doctors that money can afford. They send their children to the best schools that money can afford. They get all their money from exploitation. They go on expensive fishing trips, they pay to have helicopters drop them into remote wilderness areas and they can pay for all of this with the money they make on oil. 

They don't have to live mired in their own mess day after day. They don't get their hands dirty do they, I mean are they down there themselves cleaning up the oil of course they are not. They are clean, on a golf course.

[teartracks]

“Religion begat prosperity and the daughter devoured the mother.”
Cotton Mather

[mudpuppy]

My guess is that most people who romanticise the natural life without all of the modern complications usually haven't lived it.
It was however the common lot of man back when David Hobbes noted that the majority of men lived lives that were "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short".
It might be helpful to note that while many people in modern economies say that living primitively is superior, almost none actually make a bona fide attempt, but many millions of people living without what we take for granted are willing to risk life and limb crossing oceans and deserts to escape the Hobbesian world they were born in.

mud

[Sealynx]

When I think of backing away from the evil side of capitalism I don't think of the ideal of the "Marlboro Man" and his family setting off to a farm. Part of the problem I see with American Society is this ideal of rugged individualism that never did work. It suggests that if you can't make is alone you are doggie doo.

I think more in terms of gradual alliances being formed at a less costly and more productive level of employee owned companies. For instance I saw something on a "taxi cab" collective. A group of drivers got together who each owned their own cab. They formed a company and as time past included a mechanic  and a dispatcher and split the profits equally. As the group got larger they could add their own gas pump and have fleet insurance. The idea is that they don't go to the level where they start paying people to sit home and share in their profit by buying stock. That is what makes most companies come to value money over people.

Overtime they may contract to buy food from a group of people who like to farm so they don't have to buy the pesticide and hormone laden food produced by Conagra. This is the exact opposite of the American Dream of Great Gatsby fame.