Confusion

[Lupita]

It feels a confused feelings. I went dancing last night. I was very interesting, I danced with eleven different gentlemen. It was very enjoyable. But, it felt empty when I got home. A gentleman seems to like me personally, but my heart feels empty and sad. M did not go on Tuesday, did not go on Friday, and di not go last night. I do not understand why he does not go. I would not leave up tango just because he is there and he provokes me very ugly feelins. I have the suspition that he will come back when he has somebody to bring that he can brag about. Or he does not want to see me. Anyway, I had a good time, I felt sad after the fact. I have a misture of feelings topday. My friend R is staying with me but I am going to have to set some rules for her because she is veray dareful. She said last week that she wanted to move in with me and she had mased out her credit cards. That is a no-no. I do not want anybody in my house. And she cannot stay every single weekend here with me.
So, I got rid of one problem and now I have another. But this will be easier to solve. I do not have so much attachement to her as I had to M.
Well, give me some smiles here, I feel OK but a little sad.
Love to you all.

[Hopalong]

Sending hugs to you, Lupita -- the obsession with M will fade with time.

I see red flags with your new friend and worry a bit for you. I hope you will set some healthy boundaries right now, instead of later on.

Might be good, to experiment by saying No to her now, comfortably. A healthy friendship will not be damaged by this. (But it shouldn't take a lot of explanation.)

Are you having a few warning signs go off, even amid the pleasure of having someone new to be close to? My over-dependency on Gennulman kicked in because when I met him I was extremely lonely and it was so comforting to have someone rush into to fill the emptiness -- that I didn't take the red flags seriously. In him or in myself.

Making friends is very important for your health--and it's great to hear you enjoying the companionship of a woman. I am sure you have a sense, though, that when one person fills up all of that lonely space, and you know you're not in a healthy independent self-comforting place in your own mind --YET, you are on your way!-- then a dependecy-friendship may wind up prolonging some of your issues.

But if you make a point to continue to make new friends while you enjoy this one, and look for healthful group things too, then the loyalty-dramas that can evolve in "best" friend relationships are less of a risk. I've had a close friendship that was too intense, and it got all those dependency-codependency-boundaries-no-boundaries dramas going.

For me, I finally figured out I do not want a "best" friend. I have a core small groups of very very different people I trust completely and have wonderful dialogues/experiences with, and I am still enjoying meeting and connecting with new people too. I don't have that yearning any more for just one. Tried that and it went kind of toxic.

It's great you have a friend and you should have more!
You are a dynamic, smart, interesting and valuable person.

xo
Hops

[CB123]

Hi Lupita,

I think that your experience with M. will become more clear as time goes on.  You will have greater perspective with time apart....He probably is gone from dance because it is hard for him to see you there.  That's okay...he needs to do what he needs to do.  And so do you.

Your friend R is probably a chance for you to re-do again.  Letting her move in with you (even temporarily) is kinda like you moving in with M. too soon.  Personal space is just that: personal space.  Dont be so quick to give it up, or to settle into someone elses.  Sharing personal space is wonderful and so intimate....but if it happens too soon it can cripple everything that comes after.  Its like not waiting til Christmas to open your gift.  Not so fun, once Christmas rolls around.

Try creating your experiences with other people on more neutral ground for a long long time.  And I agree with Hops, spread your self around and dont focus on one person.

Good luck
CB

[lighter]

Lupita:

Maybe M is in the position of so many other N's......

his friends have been poked and prodded over the years, and so take enjoyment when he has to swallow some of his own medicine.

He's probably been telling them how dependant, clingy, needy and whiney you are all this time.

How jealous you'll always be...... blah blah blah.

What does he say when they report that you're dancing happily with 11 other partners, charming and elegant.... certainly not broken hearted or thinking about him Him HIM!?!

I think he's busy building indignant feelings of "HOW DARE SHE!?!?  She'll be sorry.  I'll show her.  She'll be back."  I think it's likely he'll be throwing a few more tantrums before it's all said and done, designed to pull you back in so he can punish you and show the peanut gallery how masterful and attractive he is... how much control he has over you.

::throwing up a little in my mouth::

The empty feelings are there for a reason.

They're uncomfortable bc you're making changes, and changes are scary when you don't know have healthier habits in place yet.

You'll  set some boundaries, learn they won't kill you.... soon new habits will be less scary and they'll become pleasures.  But you have to start somewhere, and keep it up till the emptiness slowly gets replaced, and one day you wake up and notice you're no longer in distress.  Heck, you feel pretty Ok today, and so it goes.

In fact, you'll probably be in a position to make the same old mistakes again, and want to, when you're feeling better.

The trick to changing patterns is remembering how bad it hurts, how empty starting over is going to feel, and mindfully selecting new choices. 

This is hard to do.  You're DOING it though!

I just love reading your happy dance posts, Lupita.

Please keep dancing.

Write out some boundaries you want to have in place for R, when the hard conversations come up.

Heck, write them down, read them then write them out again, and so on, until you can discuss them calmly, no matter what disconcerting emotional trigger R throws up.
"If you were my friend..... if you really cared about me...... it wouldn't cost you anything to let me store all my stuff and live with you..... you're being selfish and you're not a real friend!" 

What would your responses be ?

You're entitled to healthy boundaries, Lupita. 

Heck, ii's your duty to protect yourself.

A moral imperative that you make responsible decisions, even if it feels a bit hollow and strange at first.

Even if your mother, and R and M and whomever else made you feel ashamed and bad for trying in the past, or trys to make you feel bad about it now.

I give you permission to set and enforce healthy boundaries, Lupita.  Right here, right now, consider yourself empowered by the mommy spirit vested in me.

It's not R's job.

It's your job.

(((Lupita))))

Keep moving.  Stay calm.  This too shall pass.

Lighter

[Lupita]

Thank you CB, HOp and Light for taking the time and writing me. Tahnk you for cheering me up.

Now, please, help me build baundaries.

For example,

1 you cannot come all weekend. Only Saturday night. Last weekend she spend here four days and i was climbing the walls.
2 you cannot come lla weekends. There will be weekends that I just want to be alone.
3 you have to bring your own cream She drank two bottles of cream last time. I dont mine givng her coffe, but not two bottles of cream.
4 you have to bring your own towel. She used four, four clean towels last weekend. I heated it. I had to wash tem all.
5 you cannot clip you toenails on my bed. That was gross.
6 keep your hands for your seld. she touches me too much. On Friday night I pushed her hands away from my tigh. It feel bad and I pushed her
  with force.
7 bring your own things, like tooth paste, hair spray,etc. she used my things for four days last weekend and i am amd about that.
8 you have to respect my wishes when i tell you not to tell M things you have to do it, if you do again what you did with M, even that it benefited me
    i will not be your friend anymore.
9 you have to bring your pajamas.

I want to end this but I do not want to end it all. I just want a distance.

[Lupita]

I still have more things that I have to tell her. It will hapen that dyring the week I will not call her. Next weekend I will not invite her. She has to drive an hour. I do not want  her to drive one hour after we finish partying on Saturday night. But I have to have the courage to tell her that she can stay only one night.
She took my sweater last night, when I was looking for it, I id not find it, when I wook up I saw that she was sleeping with it on.
She pur her shoes on the bed. I hated that.
It is 1:34 and she is still sleeping.
I am doing my house chores even with her sleeping and watching my TV even with her sleeping. I did nopt do that last two weekends that she stayed here.

Today, I am doing all the noise I want. She is still snoring, I guess she does not care. I was thinking that I did that to M when I stayed at his house. I am learning very much from this experience.

After tha 9 things that I posted in my previous post, I still have more things to say. But, I do not want to stop coming, just to be more considerate. But she is not considerate, just like the scorpion, she is 50 years old, and she wont change. So, I will try to shaep her behavior or she will not come back to my house. But I do not want to end it. just to modify it. So, friends, help me out here. She will not move in, that is a given.

[Lupita]

Oh yes, and last night. We were driving, better said, I was driving home from the dance, almost 1:00 am and she said she wanted to stop to by cigarrettes. I said, no way. I am tired and the onlything i want is going home to sleep. you can go buy your things tomorrow morning. Sge said, things do not work that way. I said, if you want to go, wehn I take you to your car, you get your car and you go do your things.
If she was sick I would drive to China, but cigarrettes, no way. So, we did that and she went in her own car. I had to stay awake to wait for her to come home, but I did not take her.
I told her to shut up, because I could not read. She talks to much and does not let me concentrate in my reading.
But, I do not want to treat her the way M treated me.
But I recognize that M is not all bad. He is N but not as malignant as my mother. Of course it is very difficult to be as bad as my mother. But I recognize that I behaved with M a little of R is behaving with me. So, I contributed to the problem becauase of my codependency, and I recognize that R has a problem similar to mine. She will put up with almost anything just to be taken care of.
Last week she called me to tell me she was lost and she had no gasoline. I said, you should have had put gasoline insted of going to the mall and maxed out your credit cards. I do not know where are you and you need to find your way out. Anyway, the good about this is that it is teaching me. Stll I need your help. So, help me to discover boundaries, so I dont let the be tresspassed. The problem is that I do not know that a boundary exist until I feel "ouch, it hurst, you stepped on my toe" then I put the boundaru in place.That is why people abuse me. So, if I have the nboundaries in advance people wopuld know. That is why I need your help to discover the boundaries before they have been trespassed and I am crying and feeling helpless.
Love to you

[Lupita]

Last night, she did not want to sit with my aquantances. She took her things and sat by her self. She thought that I was going to leave everybody else and sit with her but I did not. Sge sat by her self all night and I sat with my friends. I went to her table to visit her several times but I did not stay.
The secret is not to be ungry at her, just to set the boundaries. Becuas ethat happens with my students all the time. They tresspass my boundaries, and I get mad instead of just make the correction without being mad.
So, I thought, if she wants to sit by her self it is her loss.

[lighter]

Wow.... lots of lessons, Lupita.

You're able to identify the dynamics, and change them.

R can sit by herself, and you can remain with your friends at dance.

You visited with R, but didn't allow her to control you.

Doesn't it feel good to step back, and see what's going on, so you can take calm appropriate action?

I think it's difficult to know how to set boundaries if all during our lives we've had our boundaries trampled.  We tend to wait till things are out of hand before exploding, then it just gets more confusing cause we're made to feel guilty for exploding.

If we learn to put boundaries in place, before they're trampled, it's easier to remain calm and talk about it without emotion.

You've already allowed R to cross boundaries consistently.  That's OK, you didn't even know you had those boundaries.  Now you do.

Sit down, make a list.  Write them out.  Read them.  Rewrite them until you're calm, and and can discuss them without getting sidetracked or triggered.

Some of those boundaries might sound like this:

"R, I really enjoy our girl nights.  Let's try to get together every Saturday night, after dance, and keep that special.  You need to be up and moving Sunday by Xpm, but we can have breakfast and hang till then.  Please pack an overnight bag so you have your own PJ's and toiletries when you come." 

If she continues to overstep, you can say....
"R, my life has room for only one girl's night a week, if that.  I need you to up and moving by X time on Sunday.  If you can't do that, then we won't be able to continue our cool girl night, which would be a shame."

Or it might sound like this... "R, I asked you to pack your own toiletries so you won't be using mine anymore.  I don't like sharing those items with other people, and I hope that's understood."

Or...."It's nice that we've worked out our weekly sleepover, but I need you to understand that I'm not comfortable when you put your hands on me, in any way.  It's a personal boundary, and I hope you can honor that so it doesn't interfere with our fun."

She's a big girl.

She can either honor your boundaries, or live with the consequences. 

Do provide consequences you're prepared to follow through with. 

You sound like you're doing great, Lupe.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

I do not want to stop coming, just to be more considerate. But she is not considerate, just like the scorpion, she is 50 years old, and she wont change. So, I will try to shaep her behavior or she will not come back to my house. But I do not want to end it.

I think it's all in these lines, Lup. Look at them:

I want her...to be more considerate.
She is not considerate.
Like the scorpion, she won't change.
So I will try to shape her behavior (change the scorpion).
I don't want to end it.

The hooks are in your wanting something that is not realistic or possible, and refusing to accept what is real. What is real, you have just stated. And you've also stated your intention to harm yourself again (trying to change a scorpion).

You will not turn her into what you want. You can't. But you can create a whole new toxic drama with this new person.

Or you can: STOP. Step out. Change your mind. Say No (to yourself also). For your health. For your well being. For your peace. For your growth. You can stop.

It's all here Lup. You sound way (and rapidly) enmeshed with an unhealthy and inconsiderate person with attitudes of entitlement and perhaps borderline abusiveness ("That's not the way things go") and she is in your very intimate space.

Here's my advice. "I would like to be friends but I have decided that I do not want to be sharing my space overnight any more. It just doesn't feel good to me. Let's meet for [coffee, movie, walk, etc"]. But I don't want to have overnight company."

Remember, "It just doesn't feel good to me" is enough explanation. You do not need to explain and justify or explode to change this. You only need to say, "This doesn't feel good to me." That's all. It is not your problem whether she gets it or accepts it. It is your problem to see that YOU get it and accept it.

In asserting this need for your space and boundaries to be respected, you do risk ending it.

This is GOOD. Your practice is to repeatedly risk being okay with independence.

Say what you need. See what happens. DO DO DO be willing to end it.

That is what a healthy person does. Ends things that are unhealthy. (And after healthy has become a reflex instead of a struggle, you will to NOT BEGIN things that are unhealthy.)

So this is good. This is a valuable experience. Act now. Act fast in your own behalf. Risk an end.

She is not your last opportunity for intimacy and company.

Stop seeing her as though she were your mother and you'd dissolve without her. You will not.

You can endure the discomfort of your own company and growth. You can. You can create your own serenity by making these choices over and over.

You won't always be alone. Right now, not getting enmeshed and dependent and victimized --with anybody-- is your job.

Keep meeting new people. Look for healthy ones. Encourage your own health. Spread it around. Don't "hook up".

love to you,
Hops

[Lupita]

Light things that I am doing OK, and Hops is worried that this woman is already abusive. I think that yes, she is abusive.

So, the point is do I keep her and try to keep her at a distance? Is it going to cause me too much stress to handle her?

Do I really need her company? I have a great time with her! Thor is for sure.

But, I am afraida that she is going to trespass my boundaries all the time.

It is 4:45 and she just left. Sge took a shower, and of course, I told her, I told her. "I washed four towels last week because you used four towels, please, use only one"

She used mine, the one that I was using. So, I will put it in the lundry box and get a clean one for my self. But she slep all day, just sleep until 4:00 PM. If she is sleeping and not eating, that does not really bother me. But it is a codependency.

The question is, do I need this? Can I be happy and just have a good time without her? Did I use her? So, now she has accomplisfed her mission and i can let her go? I am a good person and I do not use people. I love people. What can I do now? Help!!!!!

[Lupita]

Help me write an e-mail that is non-attacking, that can keep her in my life. But.....Do I need her? Is it good to have her in my life?.... She is abusive.
She does not repect my wishes, and she will make me look bad some day. She did not keep her mouth shut with M despite that I asked her to.
She will do it again with somebody else or with something else. In thsi case it was helpful, but it can cause a problem that I do not want.

E mail

This is good stuff from light:

"R, I really enjoy our girl nights.  Let's try to get together every Saturday night, after dance, and keep that special.  You need to be up and moving Sunday by Xpm, but we can have breakfast and hang till then.  Please pack an overnight bag so you have your own PJ's and toiletries when you come." 

If she continues to overstep, you can say....
"R, my life has room for only one girl's night a week, if that.  I need you to up and moving by X time on Sunday.  If you can't do that, then we won't be able to continue our cool girl night, which would be a shame."

Or it might sound like this... "R, I asked you to pack your own toiletries so you won't be using mine anymore.  I don't like sharing those items with other people, and I hope that's understood."

Or...."It's nice that we've worked out our weekly sleepover, but I need you to understand that I'm not comfortable when you put your hands on me, in any way.  It's a personal boundary, and I hope you can honor that so it doesn't interfere with our fun."

I dont know what else to do.

[Hopalong]

I think you need to make a decision and let her go...

You can keep the reasons LOW drama.

If it's drama and intense and fighting and all operatic, it's not healthy. Adults need to let each other go with some grace.

If she feels momentary disappointment, you are not a rejecting mother.

You can say, "I want to not do overnights any more, I'm realizing that's not good for me right now." END. If she argues, just REPEAT it.

But only once. Stop. You can be pleasant and set a new boundary.

Even though you were too-fast, too-intimate, you are allowed to change your mind.

If there is something healthy in the friendship it will adjust and take a new form. If there is not, that will end it.

And either way will be what is real. And calm.

love,
Hops

[lighter]

This is really good practice for you Lupita.

I was thinking that you would offer her a rational choice..... "respect my boundaries or I'll know you want to end this relationship" then follow through, no matter what.

Hops is probably more on target with pulling away, and gaining some distance.

I'm sure you'll learn a lot, either way.

Maybe you could ask to skip sleepovers for a few weeks, get your boundaries in order, then revisit your feelings about R?

In any case, you can choose to handle yourself with grace and calm quiet, even if R chooses drama.

It's OK, Lupe.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Hi Lup--
Cary Tennis made me think about you again today (and your "friend"). He amazes me. This is from his response to the writer of today's column:

She is troubled. And her behavior is going to bring trouble down on her head because it's offensive. Whether the trouble comes from you or somewhere else, trouble is going to come to her.

So all you can do is react authentically. The minute you try to predict her possible reactions, you're getting into dangerous territory. You're trying to predict the future. And, to some extent, you are trying to protect your tormentor from your own attempts to protect yourself from her. That's the convoluted and impossible territory of codependence.

So what I'm trying to do is awaken your own very normal and just instincts for self-preservation. I mean, let's get primitive. What do you really want to do? How does her behavior make you feel?

Not that you should act on it, but ... it can be freeing to admit that what you really want to do is throw her over the railing.

Not that you would do that. But it's something you might feel.

It's helpful to get at the root feelings. Then the situation becomes more human.

love,
Hops