the really old N's

[Singer]

Not Les here, but I doubt if I'd have the guts to even think it.

Les, I'm glad to hear that a social worker is now involved. I'd thought about contacting one, but not until I'm sure she wouldn't be able to convince them that I'm the one who needs professional help. Your posts have really made me aware that my 79 year old Nmother might very well be going strong for another ten years or more. Last week she told me she had been to her doctor and that he had told her that she had the beginning symptoms of congestive heart failure. It was a lie; she hadn't been to the doctor and in fact complains regularly about how unprofessional doctors in general are these days. Meaning they congratulate her on her good health and don't take her claims of "depression" as sufficient reason to listen for three hours to how her children, her brothers and sisters, her father, her mother, my father, the gardener and the cashier at the grocery store failed to live up to her expectations.

I like what you said about being able to feel some sympathy, but no empathy. I'm not a part of her anymore, not the defective, scared, awkward and socially inept part of her that she thought she could isolate and point a finger at, and condemn or --the most painful--ridicule.

Avril, I can understand how resentful you feel for feeling responsible for your NM. I have a brother and a sister who are more than happy to take my NM's venom as an excuse to stay out of the picture. Doesn't exactly warm my heart toward them, but I have to realize that it's their choice. I know where they're coming from, and, admit it or not, trying to work through this crap is my choice. Who knows, maybe I will ( we will) learn something.  

Singer

[Frustrated]

The problem in my family, and I'm not entirely certain who's problem it is exactly, is that NO ONE is willing to take on responsibility for my aging parents.

Neither myself, my brother or sister has any interest in being "the one" to take that responsibility.  I think they both assumed I would be "the one" as I was closest in proximity to my parents (within 25 miles), while they both live out of state, plus I am the family's "whipping girl".  However, some time ago I moved out of state myself (not to get away from them specifically, but it did end up being a nice added bonus).

I've been on the receiving end of the majority of my parents' crap, and I've simply had enough, although I am still stuck dealing with them in ways my siblings simply aren't.  I would be fine with sharing the burden, but its not going to be mine exclusively.  My sister is just flat out terrified at the prospect, and from comments my brother makes I gather he just thinks its all my problem.  I guess my question is, what do Nparents do when they've finally successfully alienated everyone and no one wants to be there for them?

[Anonymous]

I guess my question is, what do Nparents do when they've finally successfully alienated everyone and no one wants to be there for them?

They find other suppliers or they end up in state-run nursing homes. And I think they brought it on themselves.

bunny

[Anonymous]

I have a brother and a sister who are more than happy to take my NM's venom as an excuse to stay out of the picture. Doesn't exactly warm my heart toward them, but I have to realize that it's their choice. I know where they're coming from, and, admit it or not, trying to work through this crap is my choice. Who knows, maybe I will ( we will) learn something.  

At some point, I think it's totally okay to pressure siblings to help out THE CAREGIVER (their own brother or sister). They aren't helping out for the sake of the N parents but for their sibling! I wouldn't let this brother and sister off the hook because it's "their choice." Of course they can't be forced at gunpoint but I see no reason to give them a guilt-free pass on this.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Please don't be too hard on the siblings that aren't involved. If the old person is N then they have a right to protect themselves against a destructive person no matter who they are. That being said, it is all of your responsibility to make sure the N parent is taken care of. But that doesn't mean you have to do it personally. There are agencies and other help available. It just has to get done. You can get the siblings to help with costs or research, but again....you and your siblings have a right to protect against an N. It doesn't matter if mom or dad is their name. Make sure they have a shelter, food, medical care. That's it. If you CHOOSE to make it a personal choice to be personally involved, let the sister or brother know what they can do. But I wouldn't waste time getting miffed at them for not making the same choice as you. And be very concrete about what they can do to help you. That will make it easier for everyone involved.

[Singer]

Hi Again,

I think I might have been too hard on my brother and sister when I wrote about their lack of involvement with NM. Actually there's more to it than that; NM simply doesn't seem to be able to deal with more than one family member at a time. My sister has made efforts, but every time my mother has contact with me she turns on my sister. So my sister assumes I am checking on Nmom and stays out of the line of fire.

With my brother it's another story. I think he was truly shocked when NM pulled off the gloves after our father died and turned her rage on him. She will not accept his wife, and sadly will not accept two out of his three children either. The oldest one she tolerates. Again it's the NPD pattern of not being able to deal with more than one individual at a time. Personally I think it would be very detrimental to his family if he were to be drawn into the fray He has enough on his plate with three children on their way to adolescence. Another NPD aspect of this is that she can’t tolerate the thought that he might not think she’s worth the price of his involvment. His provoked anger is much preferable to her than indifference.

As for myself, I have no intention of becoming a victim or a martyr. Some of my reasons for wanting to maintain contact with NM are quite selfish. I don't want her to leave this earth before I figure out how the hell she managed to emotionally set me up with one hand while she slapped me down with the other.
 
I get a clue from time to time. Like this weekend she called while I was reading. She wanted to know what I was reading. It happened to be a cookbook (I read recipes in lieu of cooking). NM: “You know if you’re so interested in that stuff you should have done something with it like that woman who landed in jail.” Me: “You mean Martha Stewart?” NM: “Yes, why couldn’t you have done something like that?” I assume she didn’t mean why couldn’t I get sent to prison, but the point is that as long as I can remember she has taken any interest or accomplishment and turned it into another example of failure. Grandiosity served up with a side of disgrace.

As for Frustrated’s question about what do N’s do when they’ve succesfully alienated everyone, I’m inclined to agree with Bunny. They will end up where they deserve to end up, but in the meantime since I’m not in a position to afford therapy, I’ll take advantage of this opportunity to examine my wounds. Sounds pretty cold; wonder where I got that from.

Singer

[bunny]

I don't want her to leave this earth before I figure out how the hell she managed to emotionally set me up with one hand while she slapped me down with the other.

She has a mental illness which causes her to go psycho while appearing to be lucid.

NM: “You know if you’re so interested in that stuff you should have done something with it like that woman who landed in jail.” Me: “You mean Martha Stewart?” NM: “Yes, why couldn’t you have done something like that?” I assume she didn’t mean why couldn’t I get sent to prison, but the point is that as long as I can remember she has taken any interest or accomplishment and turned it into another example of failure. Grandiosity served up with a side of disgrace.

You know she's talking about herself, right?

bunny

[OnlyMe]

Hi Les and everyone!

I feel such a kinship with those of you on this thread.  I am just licking my wounds from an overnite with NMom two days ago.  This time an old friend went with me, to watch my back, but I still had to go to bed for a day when I got home - I swear I don't understand the power of that little woman, but I get really sick after being in her company, being invisible and voiceless - this time I had tingling arms and legs on top of the boohoos and a major headache.....grrrrr.  Sometimes I feel she is Evil in flesh.   One of the hardest things, I find, is to not be able to trust my own mother.  I still grapple with that concept.  She is doing quite a few things to undermine me at the moment, and I only know thanks to the grapevine.   When I confronted her with one issue, she managed to twist my words to such an extent that I wanted to kill myself out of sheer frustration.  My friend calmly changed the subject to admiring NM's outfit, which led to her giving us a 1 1/2 hr fashion show of her new clothes ... at midnight until 1:30am!!!  And that is when my friend saw my NM twirling around like a six year old, showing off her new things.....it was really really scary to see.
 
Les, I am interested that you have a SW on the scene now.  That must be a huge help for you.  I'd give my eye teeth to have one come to see NM.  Unfortunately, NM puts on such a fabulous show whenever anyone else is around, that I doubt a SW would see anything wrong with her and her situation at all.  However, cataract surgery is looming on the horizon by spring.  That might affect her driver's licence, which might affect her independence, which might lead to putting her in a Retirement Home - have my fingers crossed!

Yes, the intellectual side of me knows that I should just run away in the other direction and never look back, but since I am the only one left in her family, no siblings, etc - I feel a responsibility to make sure she is okay.  I'm hoping to just talk on the phone and not go back until Christmas.  Quite the tightrope I'm walking these days.

Thanks for being there, and understanding, and helping, everyone.  Couldn't manage to cope as well, without you all and your helpful voices.  I can't quite see the light at the end of the tunnel, but I trust that it is there.

[les]

Singer, Singer - my god, what a struggle it is but I feel your grit, your fierce determination.  Now I wonder if there is anything that could be done with your mother's response to you reading a cookbook. Hmmm, thinking. Nope. For a minute I thought there might be an opportunity to toss it back so she could see what she's saying. What a thing for her to say! Really makes me mad! But what am I saying! Is it even remotely possible for a woman that would say this to appreciate its impact. What did you say back to her by the way?

Guest question - No, I could not have told the SW that living with my mother would kill me if I hadn't had the truly awesome support of this board. So many people to thank here - even a mouse in a red cape!  - I also told my mother very, very clearly and firmly (in a more diplomatic way) the same thing last week. I can feel that she thinks I'll give up this childish notion that we have difficulties, finally come to my senses and invite her to live with me. She is flabbergasted I believe that I have left her blowing in the wind contending with the idea of meals on wheels and homes and horrors, social workers. Soo I made it clear before the SW came, just in case there was any doubt about living with me,that it would not work. She said, "Yes, I know, your house just isn't set up for it."(she hates this house and has been trying to get us to move to a "decent" house for years - I wonder why?) I said, "It's more than that." She said,"Well, 3 generations just can't live together."  So I said,
(approx) " You and I have serious issues which we will probably never resolve and we can not live together."  I fell apart on the weekend. I don't know if it was the strain of such truthfulness. She seems absolutely fine -

Re: the question you asked Singer - about how is it they set you up then knock you down.  To me, it feels like being the straight man in a comedy act.  I am there so her punch line is that much stronger.  Now, finally, when I am asked what I think about something I can see a few steps ahead -  It has taken me all my 55 years to realize that I get set up all the time. Poor old Charlie Brown - I don't know if he ever realized that Lucy will always keep yanking the football away just when he is ready to kick it.
 
This weekend I realized my mother is really like a very jealous older sibling. She wanted a group of admirers, maybe playmates, but damned if those playmates didn't want lives of their own as they grew up. How dare they.

thank you, thank you all. I am really letting it out, cutting loose here! Have much more to say but will wrap for now.

hugs to you all
Les

[Singer]

You know she's talking about herself, right?

Bunny, when I read that it makes sense, but I just can't easily make that leap in my thinking on an emotional level. NM doesn't have any more outstanding accomplishments on her record than I do, but in her mind she doesn't need to; just being herself is enough. Once, not long ago, during an argument I asked her exactly what she figured she had achieved in her life that set her so far above the rest of us. She's never answered the question, but instead has added it to her list of often mentioned thoughtless things I have said.  
 

Is it even remotely possible for a woman that would say this to appreciate its impact. What did you say back to her by the way?

I didn't say anything.  My role in the conversation had ended at that point and she was off and running. I don't really remember anything specific about the rest of the conversation, although I've tried. I guess I really am getting good at zoning out, or else advancing short term memory loss is taking care of it for me.  

One of the things that upsets me most about the elderly N's is this. When I was a child I thought the reason I was always inferior, lacking whether it was in appearance, or intellect, or confidence was because I was too young to have mastered these things. As I got older that elusive age of achievement was always just beyond my grasp. According to NM, someone else's daughters had done it all, done it better, and done it while better dressed. I can't get that time back. I can't go back in time and be content with who I am, or who I was. And if NM could have her way, she'd steal my old age too.

It makes me so sad, Only Me when I read that you are sick in bed after an overnite with your NM. She's robbing you of entire days of your own life and appropriating them for herself, for her own selfish vanity. It's time to put a stop to that. Sometimes, for whatever reasons, we can't just walk away, but that doesn't mean we can't level the playing field a little bit.  

Singer

[Anonymous]

NM doesn't have any more outstanding accomplishments on her record than I do, but in her mind she doesn't need to; just being herself is enough. Once, not long ago, during an argument I asked her exactly what she figured she had achieved in her life that set her so far above the rest of us. She's never answered the question, but instead has added it to her list of often mentioned thoughtless things I have said.

I'll explain what I'm trying to say.....there is my observation of her internal world and there's what she'll admit to. Her self-perception is shallow, severely distorted, a bit psychotic (i.e. not grounded in reality). I'm not going to get any validation or admissions from her because she fled reality long ago, if she was ever there in the first place. My perception is that her internal world has extremely harsh, critical, punitive, sadistic internal objects (templates). She projects them on you, hoping you will soak them up like a sponge and take on her own self-hate and feelings of inadequacy.

The solution is to set limits on what you "take in" coming from her. If she says some crap about Martha Stewart, decide whether to feel bad about this projection or whether to let it slide off you because it's so stupid. Realize she is talking about how she feels inside. Also realize that if you bring this to her attention by asking her to admit that it's a projection, it won't work. She'll project even more.

Some people are very primitive and infantile. All they can do is project. Our reaction can be to develop thick skins against the projections, and find strategies on how to set limits with the person.

My experience with this was when my N-FIL said, sadly, to my H, "I was hoping you'd make something of your life, but you didn't listen to me, and you never did..." My H and I knew he was talking about himself. H has made something of his life. It hurt my H that his father discounted his accomplishments and they weren't even on his father's radar screen. But we understood that his father was a nut.


bunny

[Singer]

Hi Bunny,

I do understand what you're saying and I thank you for expressing it so clearly; clear thinking has been a rare commodity in my experience.  And I know that her projections are, as you said, shallow and distorted. But this is the part that gives me trouble:

Our reaction can be to develop thick skins against the projections, and find strategies on how to set limits with the person.

For myself that almost, but doesn't quite work. I agree on the setting limits part; that hasn't been easy, but I think I'm finally getting there. It's the thick skin part that doesn't sit well with me. If we succeed in developing thick enough skins isn't that just conceding that either it's washing our hands of the matter, or playing the game on their terms?

I guess what I'm asking is how to deal in a humane manner with someone who's self absorbed and not grounded in reality, and who never will be. This is the special circumstance of the elderly, parental N's. My instinct is to wash my hands of it and let her sink or swim, which is what she always told me I must do.  What differentiates narcissism from self preservation at all costs and how do you know when it's self-preservation or just plain ol'  self-interest? If I turn my back on what my NM is going through, how does that make me any different than the NM?

Thanks for listening while I beat this subject to death  

Singer

[bunny]

I agree on the setting limits part; that hasn't been easy, but I think I'm finally getting there. It's the thick skin part that doesn't sit well with me. If we succeed in developing thick enough skins isn't that just conceding that either it's washing our hands of the matter, or playing the game on their terms?

I see developing a thick skin as a defense against infantile attacks. I'm not talking about abandoning the N.  Just making an effort not to take their mean statements personally. This isn't playing the game on their terms, because they don't want me to develop a thick skin. They want me to be thin-skinned.

I guess what I'm asking is how to deal in a humane manner with someone who's self absorbed and not grounded in reality, and who never will be. This is the special circumstance of the elderly, parental N's. My instinct is to wash my hands of it and let her sink or swim, which is what she always told me I must do.

She told you to let her sink or swim??

I've had some experience with elderly N in-laws (both deceased, thankfully). We had to make decisions about how much time, energy, money, sacrifice would be made for them. Once that decision was made, then we strategized (more than once) how to create the least amount of wear-and-tear on ourselves. We had to go to A LOT OF THERAPY to vent about these people. We had to come up with new strategies to deal with new situations (hospitalizations, illnesses, injuries, paying for caregivers). It's like any stressful project. One makes a lot of pragmatic decisions and finds ways to deal with the difficulties. I think it's nearly impossible to deal with an elderly N-parent alone. It kind of requires a support system (imo).

bunny

[Singer]

She told you to let her sink or swim??

Oops, sorry Bunny. I wasn't too clear there. She has always told me that I must either sink or swim. Or in her words, I made my own bed and now I must lie in it. Of course, when I am lying in it quite comfortably she's furious that I'm not feeling sufficient guilt and inadequacy.

Thanks for your ideas on this. You always give me something to think about.

Singer

[bunny]

She has always told me that I must either sink or swim. Or in her words, I made my own bed and now I must lie in it. Of course, when I am lying in it quite comfortably she's furious that I'm not feeling sufficient guilt and inadequacy.

Thanks for clarifying. Too bad she didn't give you permission to let her sink or swim. If she's furious when you don't feel guilty, this is where I would make huge efforts not to feel guilty and give HER this projection BACK. When someone wants you to feel a certain way, it's a sure sign that you need to block that feeling. They want you to contain/express their own garbage! It's not easy to feel okay when there's pressure to feel bad, but if you make the effort, you will see a change in the dynamics.

bunny