N damage: Itentional & Unintentional

[Gaining Strength]

Oh my goodness.
This si sso frustrating.
I think I know what I want to write.  I compose it as I go along in my day but when I get to the computer - BAM - it completely eludes me.

I started writing here yesterday with so much to say and certain that I could answer some of the questions about the difference between the two effects of nism on my life and BOP the whole things vanishes and I am no longer sure.  I thought and thought and thought about it last night but couldn't separate the two in my mind. 

I am getting old, feeling in  senile, memory loss and some kind of confusiong.  I am not old but feeling old.  Hoping for clarity to break in.

Mayby (just maybe) if I keep blabbering in this vein the clarity will emerge.

I do need to make a shift in my morning routine but I am loath to do it.  When the cool (cold) morning finally are replaces wy something warmer maybe it will be easier.  But I want to get up and do some medication and yoga.  For now I am so longing to get to a computer and the internet and coffee.  I think if I relent and get internet service at home this may resolve many problems.

What is the cheapest way to get internet at home?  Any recommendations?

Today I ltravell a couple of hours to pick my child up at a regional airport.  He has been visiting my wealthy sister-in-law and playing with her vacationing children - having a wonderful time - experiencingin what most children experience with family (though these children ore only family by marriage).  He flew down on thursday on a direct flight.  His return would require a change of airplanes and my (wealthy) sister-in-law arranged to have her (m)anny fly back with him.  She is very generous. I wouldn't hear of it and am driving to meet my little boy this afternoon.  It will be a good drive home as he will have lots and lots to tell me about his trip.

Maybe on the way I will be sorting out this Nism issue.  I think it is one of those things that has to sort itself out within me.  That is one of the reasons that I want to get back to my daily meditative practice.  It would allow this stuff to sort itself out.

But this is one thing that I do want to say.  Soemthing there is in our socity that doesn't love  ro even want to hear of a father (or mother) who does not love a child.  Even here I often hear (or read) that parents do their best.  that is quite simply not always true.  I, quite frankly, don't believe it is true for either of my parents but now I am certain that it was not true of my father.

Why is it that people insist that parents "do their best"?  My parents didn't even try and my mother still won't try.

The person who interrupted me yesterday was a lovely woman who is one of my mother's contemporaries.  She is quite a remarkable person whom I could spend hours writing about here.  She began her adulthood in a conventional mmanner and then began taking on issues of justice and child developent and international and spiritual concerns.  She has had remarkable experiences.

She began by saying how sorry she was to here about my father and then went into how she really remembered when he was younger  and (without direct reference) continued saying that in their younger years my father was so delightful etc., etc.  Later in the conversation she ventured that the PTSD the my father probably suffered in was might be an underpinning to his later behavior.  I found that to be so insightful on her part and a respit for my soul.  But (my point here) she bemoaned the fact that my mother eschewed her friendship and went on to count the ways in which their lives had paralleled each other and their many common interests and the number of times and ways she had tried to reconnect only to be rebuffed by my mother.

How coudl I explain to her that my mother holds these biases and meannesses that are grounded in nothing and because the are grounded in nothing they cannot be over turned.

She went on to say that my mother was so very smart.  I frankly replied that I had heard that all my life but had never seen any sign of that in my own experience.

Later that day I went to a "meeting" that my mother was participating in about spiritual development.  It is such a joke.  The hwole point of this weekend long  "conference" is in letting go of fear and allowing love in and yet here is this person whom mmy mother would do well to renew her friendship with whom she has turned a deaf (unkind) ear  to just because. 

My mother cannot articulate nor even does she know why she has a hard heart towards this woman but she won't look at it either. 

I may push on this one a little because I think I can learn something about this human who happens to be my mother and I have NOTHING invested in it other than learning about how she does and does not think.

[river]

I can well imagine how you're confused.   Everything in a narcissistic disorder is back to front, and its very hard to believe what you're experience is telling you.   Eg, your mom's on a spiritual path all about love, but what you actually see and experience is the opposite.   Its 'cunning, baffling, powerful', and always reinvents itself in endless guises, but yet the basic content, the basic terms of engagement are the same, it can look different, sound different, but as it hits you inside, the feeling response is the same dynamic.   Well, thats from my experience. 

Like you, I'd get these flashes of clarity, as I was walking along, or something, but they's slip into a black hole, never t0 be regained again.  So I've taken to stopping and writing it all down, no matter where I am.  This has gone on now for years. 

[Hopalong]

Wonderful post, ((((GS)))).

So happy about M's trip! What a joy that he's had this escape and adventure.

I think the "they did the best they could" thing is true in a way, and at the same time does not in the slightest bit make cruel or neglectful parents unaccountable.

The way I think of it, as in the example you gave of your parents not even trying, is:

The reason not-trying was "the best they could do" was because they didn't have the moral strength to try.

NOT that this was okay. And not that you have to forgive them.

You don't.

You can, if you want to, later on, because you might get to a place where that is something you wish to do for yourself. It doesn't let them off the hook in the moral universe.

It just lets you off the hook of the damage to you of eternal anger.

That's how I see it anyway. (I still have interesting brief blasts of anger at Mom now and then. Suddenly yell at the dead lady when I'm in the bathroom! Weakening ones though.)

Oddly, I'm usually glancing in the mirror when that happens. I talk to myself: Thanks, Mom. (sarcastically).

And then I am too ... I dunno, almost bored with myself ... to get up any energy to debate with a ghost. Who (by the definition I mentioned earlier) really was doing the best she knew how to do, given the forces in her life.

love to you,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

huh.

It's just my experience - but some of my biggest (and most freeing) insights are the ones that seem to slip away just as my fingers are beginning to type them down. Frustrating, to be sure!! But understandable, because these things are usually the ones that I've spent the longest time and most energy avoiding even thinking to myself - much less saying out loud. And so I babble on & on... until inevitably I work my way right back around to the same blank spot, and sometimes - yes - am able to awkwardly get it out in "rough draft" form.

This woman who's known your parents so long sounds like someone you might be able to connect with. She seems willing to share the kind of information that would be invaluable to you, at this stage of work.

As to the certain knowledge that you are not - were not - loved by your parents. When you are the child in question, the pain of that goes beyond comprehension. It will always be around; it will always be ugly; and it will always hurt. That said, the intensity of all that wanes... fades out... and I guess, one could say it's a blessing that humans are designed to adapt... because one can actually "get used" to this. It becomes just one of many facts about the person - not more important or less, inherently - but in the scale of things, in the total accounting... it's just one thing about you.

I do think you're on to something big, though, with looking at the difference of someone being intentionally cruel and the other type of cruelty that takes the form of neglect, dismissiveness, discounting, overly-controlling, projecting, etc. One is a direct and identifiable "threat" - and a person develops all kinds of defense strategies for dealing with that. But it's incredibly hard to even NAME the other kind... to give it a description... and yet, every intuitive and emotional response is telling you - this is wrong. Keep going; keep writing... it'll come to you!

[Gaining Strength]

Difficult to write it cogently.

intentional sabotage took incredible, indescribable toll. 
when I am facing something difficult, either a task difficult to complete or a conflict where two needs or events or responsibilities are competing
then I tend to shut down - in a profound way - feeling drawn into an emotional fetal position.

It is a no win thing - that is how it feels.
When I learned of my father's intentional intimidtion I "knew" that this has played a role but I cannot yet find or see how it is so.

Since my father's death, I have been re-member-ing that when I was out of sight I did not receive punishment, recriminations or condemnations - only when I happened by or at required times. 

Dinner times, particularly the 5 years I was living at home after my brother went off to school, were a torture chamber but I was blind to that and was caught in a desparate desire to please and connect but unable to put misformed pieces together.  I would try to connect with my father who wo;uld sit at the head of the table and ask questions about my actions in a rapid fire manner and yet offer no information about his own and would brook no inquiries EVER into his day, world, life.

I recall as a young adult being asked what I wanted for a particular gift and saying that I wanted a computer and being asked why and regardless of what I answered being told, "That isn't why you want that.  WHY do you want it."

It was a well known and often commented on factor that my father would ask questions that had no answers and yet he would demand answers. DEMAND them, relentlessly, with reined in tensed jaw, without repose until some response was given but not just any response, the rigth response - what made it right would be utterly elusive.  If the one under interrogation was not the witness, there was no way in which to aid the object of that interrogation.  We all suffered regardless of who was the target but the target, unquestionably suffered greatest.

Now that I know all of that was intentional intimidation ---
I see that my father was a torturer.  Perhaps he learned this in training during the Korean War.  Perhaps he was trained how to break prisoners  or what to expect as a prisoner should he be taken.
He would demand answers that did not exist and would berate and hold us all hostage until the elusive answer somehow were produced.  I suspect that answer would be arrived at simply when he tired of the wretched mind-control game.

As I have written earlier - he wrote us off when his mind control no longer worked, when we no longer succombed to his torment.  But we did not go away in victory but in sorrow, still longing to connect, to honor and respond to "father", unable to comprehend the forces at work and unable but unwilling to give up on fitting them into the normal concepts of father-child relationship.

Even to his last day, I was there.
What a surprise to see his wife of 3 years carrying on his very means of torment and intentional confusion and obfuscation.

[Gaining Strength]

The longing to connect in indescribable.
The longing to belong - to something greater than myself without having to give up myself.
Always demanded was that I give up who I was and I complied for so long and then began railing against it.
Longing to have humans make an effort to understand.  That is certainly my experience as a parent - the long hours I spend trying to understand my child and to respond to the being who he is, to nurture and shape yet prune without wounding.
None of that trying existed.

I don't know if I have written about this or not.
But in late February I let 4 women come into my home to help me clean up.
One person started the "movement" as a help.  But two of the people were NO help. 
They came in to my kitchen, made decisions about how my pantry should be organized, what should be kept and what not.
With 4 at work, I could not keep up with all that was being done.
Now - I cannot find much of my stufff - don't know if they moved it or threw it out.
Yesterday wanted to use some cayenne powder - gone.
WHY - even if it was old the bottle itself could be reused with fresh.
My grain pantry was completely cleaned out - some grains and flours that I had purchased from small mills - GONE.

This touches so deep into my wounding - things that I valued GONE without consulting me.

I keep things in boxes - like my waffle iron.  Box gone.
I kept some snack items in boxes.  the contents of one box are not individually labeled - box gone.

I am so angry and frustrated.
and all of this turns in on itself - a person offered help - I took it - and it was not what I wanted at all.  I did not get to have it done my way - it was done as the "helpers" wanted. 

I would never do that to someone else? 
Honestly I cannot even begin to understand.
All of this "damage" was done by only two of the women.  The other two would no more take over or control in this manner than would I. 

Of the two controllers - I know only one.  She is very, very controlling.  I see so clearly how it is a cover up for her - keeping the out-of-control stuff at bay - not unlike my father.

Painful.

Painful not being able to get done what I need to get done.
Not able to resolve some conflicts or neglected things.
Longing to get to the memories to unlock this.

[river]

GS, theres a lot that you've written that I'd like to respond to.  I find your writing full of meaning. 
One thing tho, the cleaners up incident, I can imagine how you feel, that feeling of things you value being taken away, and the invasiveness of it is part and parcel of the original dynamic.   
One of the injuries that I have found that I sustained from my origins is a terrible weakness when it comes to defending myself and protecting my territory.   and that feels awful, like I've allowed the whole thing to happen again, the very thing Im most against.   
My form of healing is to make this part of 'my own inventory'   I allow so many things past me and I could kick myself for it, its like having a wire loose.  When I worked thro the steps (in recovery), time and again, I found the character defect of 'misplaced trust' was the cause of my debacles. 
I say this not to attack myself, or to have anyone sorry for me, but to just bring it to the light, also in the hope that as I share my own experiences of the ~~ whateveryoucall the damage (I call it the exile disorder), that it will help the person who hears it to identify and perhaps feel less alone, and more empowered, ie you. 

And Im still interested in your subject matter here, thinking of doing a spinoff post from yours, but have to delegate time here, there and everywhere, and then theres always the procrastination time slot to be taken care of!!  : s

[sKePTiKal]

It's not your fault, GS....

Not your fault:

that you couldn't find an answer that would satisfy dad and "connect" you to him in a rational, normal way
that you were able to give, give, give and keep trying to connect... and he was too self-absorbed (to put it mildly) to notice
that half the women who volunteered to "help" didn't know common courtesy and respect for boundaries
that you didn't foresee them taking charge and making decisions without consulting you

and lastly: it's not your fault that your wounds are your wounds and still seem close to the surface and easily reopened.

I absolve you of responsibility, but that may not be enough to change the long pattern of punishment you endured and possibly still expect unconsciously...

You need to absolve yourself - little GS and your present self - for being the target of abuse. This probably sounds strange... but rather than remembering and bringing up more and more instances of the same kind of wounding (and retraumatizing yourself)... the direct way through... is to let yourself off the hook. It's essential. IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT the way your parents acted toward you... there is nothing about you that would cause a normal person to treat you that way. It helps in small, big, subtle and spectacular ways - to keep as your mantra... that it wasn't your fault and you're not responsible for fixing THEM or the RELATIONSHIPS... you're only responsible for fixing you, and that starts with a deep feeling that you are not at fault and didn't somehow bring this all down on you.

Furthermore, in the present, when people act like callous jackasses - that's not your fault either... but now you've got skills to protect yourself from those people... you've proved it to me over the past year, so I know you do. Sure, you're going to remain sensitive to certain types of people and treatment - I am too. And some days one just doesn't have the energy to deal with it - I know that. I still have old emotions that get triggered in certain situations, too. And that's not my fault - BECAUSE...

of the fact, that when I was a child... I was helpless and powerless against the tyranny of invisible abuse. I grew into myself via a perverse, warped, circuitous route from that child... so I still have "vulnerabilities"... tendencies... leftover, hangover stuff that as a gramma - I'm still working on. But I'm no longer helpless or powerless or voiceless. Especially when I find someone is stepping on my still hurting toes in specific ways.

It doesn't matter whether the jackasses you're dealing with know your personal history - you do. It's up to you now to protect you from the unthinking and careless and yes, intimidating folk of the world. Things were done (and horribly not done) to and for you... and believe me, it wasn't your fault. So, give yourself a pass on the punishment wheel of fortune... and realize that yes, when one is a child there's nothing one can do to protect oneself adequately... it hurt; it added obstacles to your life where other people had none; it was unfair, unjust, it hurt(s) like hell, and lord knows you TRIED...

but that was THEN and this is NOW.

It wasn't your fault THEN... and it's not your fault NOW. In some magical way, forgiving yourself for being "only a child" - like the story of the writer and Jesus - makes it possible to BE beyond where that stuff can hurt you - again. Where you can see the 'rents as just imperfect, even terribly flawed people - but YOU'RE OK. Because you're no longer trying to change the past, no longer blaming yourself (in unconscious ways - and yeah, I do this), and you can stand in the confidence that you're doing the best you can, given the cards you were dealt... and that's really not all that bad (compared to the callous jackasses of the world).

And you've most definitely connected with me. I have a really hard time, when I know you're suffering because I don't have clue one what it is you need the most; what will help. I can only speak from me, what I think I hear you say (tho that might be "translated" into what I understand), and what I went (and go) through... and hope it has an echo on your side.

[Gaining Strength]

I continue to be baffled by the fact that I can spent quite a bit of time during the day thinking about things I want to write about here but when the oportunity arrives my mind goes completely blank.  Then when I shut my computer and go on y way - my mind is cranking out the missives.

part of a line of thought is about the complete authority my father demanded and received from my brothers and me until we were in our early 30s and he cracked open wide enough for us to see the wizard was just a small man.

By then the die was cast and the succumbing to authority (even while experiencing an unconscious,  suppressed, concommitant rage and railing against authority).  Were that response to lauthority limited to that person who was my father things would be A-OK, it would have died with him but that is not the case.  in fact it is a different story that I live.  Anyone who sets themselves up as authority or who makes pronouncements with the air of authority, I give it to them, unquestioningly, without thought or review or scrutiny.  Such award may be brief until justified scrutiny kicks in but most likely and most often scrutiny only comes in far too late. Only after some price has been exacted.  Everytime it happens (which is actually sseveral times a day) regardless of the degree of cost, I kick myself and go through a routine of reviewing the origins and griving the extraordinary pain of having suffered the sabotage from a person who gave me life but never love nor support nor care.  The whole scenario is relived in a microcosmic millisecond, relived and reinforced.  But the biggest pain is that reminding and reinforcement of the lesson he taught over and over and over again - I deserved what I got.  And unfortunately, I live that in my being regardless of how my rational mind tells me a different story.  My rational mind is not strong enough, powerful enough, omnipresent enough to countervail the sublimated, omnipowerful lesson a doting, dutiful child learned out of love and longing and attachment.

What greater betrayal could there be?

[Gaining Strength]

I have stuff that I must do - but they don't involve other people.
I function so much better underdeadline which involves working with other people.
I can get things done for my son, or when I must meet with others.
But when it comes to deadlines that i suffer consequences for not meeting, even if they are simply within my own being, I am paralyzed.

I do know that this has to do with past experience.  I cannot get to the memory or to the release.
It is agonizing and crippling in terms of being a functioning person.

It is beyond painful.

[sKePTiKal]

Ann, I think I came up with the same approach to that kind of paralysis! At least it works sometimes...

GS - I don't know if this will be useful or not, but one thing I've seen about my own reactions - retraumatizing old wounds and reinforcing old stuff... regardless of the origin... is that I seem to have an instinctive (that is, before rational thought kicks in) distortion in my "threat perception". Anxiety is involved in this... but even more so, "security" - that sense of "no matter what happens I'm going to be OK". For shorthand, I just call it emotional PTSD. (yeah - it's redundant; all PTSD is emotional isn't it?) What's important in that thought, is that I perceive EMOTIONAL threats to be bigger, more serious, more deadly - more threatening, than they really are.

The reason I use this name for it, is to separate it from the kind of PTSD that occurs because of trauma - physical threats to life & limb - that seem to get "stuck" in one's fight/flight area of the brain. Emotional PTSD - in Amber's world - comes from that chinese water torture kind of experience of living with emotionally abusive parents. The difference for me is, that when we are children we are "building" and forming our Selves. Peoples' reactions to us become how we see ourselves; we live up to those implied "expectations" and outright descriptions of "how we are" to ourselves... and we are totally vulnerable to words, actions and even lack of "attunement" from parents, because, as children, we do experience a true dependence for survival - food, clothing, school and shelter - on those very same abusive parents. And rather than the fight/flight brain, it seem to be "stuck" in another part of my being - the part that recognizes & agonizingly feels abandonment and isolation and rejection and worthlessness......

So: in the PTSD model - that's what gets "stuck" in our threat perception brain... it's our set of triggered-reflex-reactions buttons... and we can be extremely sensitive to those things - because our (inner-child) sense of Self or Safety is dependent on being able to see and react to those threats. Those threats can be as simple as a specific sensitivity to a word that was used to degrade us and make us feel that we weren't worthy of recognition, love and protection. Or the tone of voice someone uses when speaking to us. Or the complete lack of empathy coming from a person who does have some authority within the scope of our life (like bureaucrats).

It need not be a real threat - it only has to resemble one to set up me off, because that "reaction" has been reinforced so much, so intensely, so often by those people one most depends on to recognize your needs, meet them, and protect you. That fear of abandonment (or rejection)... is something that belongs to the "child self". And so far, I haven't found a whole lot that makes this go away. One can, however, learn to live with it... get used to it... and manage it.

Like any PTSD triggering, when I feel myself in front of one of those emotional tunnels... I make myself stop thinking (no racing and possibly off the wall thoughts) and just breathe - feel myself centered in my body. If I can feel my toes & elbows & back... then "I'm OK" physically, you know? It really helps to minimize the impact of these, if I can be alone and still until it passes and my brain doesn't hurt anymore and I can be rational again. Even hubs' talking to me can stress that boundary of inner control.... or it can bring me back. It just depends... my latest one of these lasted all day yesterday. But by evening, I was able to tell myself - there's nothing more I can think of that'll help today; I'll look at and think about it again tomorrow. I'm OK - right now; I'll be OK in the morning; and I can give myself a comfort "time out" just because I need one. I'm overtaxing myself; making it harder - and maybe even making a mistake... because of the perception distortion I've noticed (post facto) in all these reactions. Hubs brought me back yesterday with a simple declarative "don't leave me"... and he meant don't withdraw into myself and obsess. This kind of reaction is kinda like an emotional disability... one can live just fine with it - but adaptively.

Over time, I've come to see this trait of mine as "how I'm built" - it's the hand that life dealt me. Just like we can't change our DNA tendencies to certain health problems, our experiences with parents are just as resistant to change - but you know, like with health problems, it's also possible to take steps to control "how I'm built", too. Unlike when I was a child and hopelessly powerless in the situation I can - at least minimally for now - control how much I participate in these reactions. It starts with a deep understanding that I didn't deserve what I experienced, nor was it my fault. It sounds like a sneaky form of self-blame, to accept that I participate in my own triggered reactions... but I don't think it is. It doesn't feel that way at all. On the contrary, it feels like there is some strange, unfamiliar tool being presented to me that can - with practice, over time - change this built-in reaction significantly. By accepting that "the way I am" makes me a total sucker for these kinds of emotional seizures - where I relive the old wounds and pain in a totally different situation - I can separate the phenomena; the experience of the emotion from the other parts of my Self. That tiny bit of separation is a hugely powerful tool for me. It takes something I'm too close to, to see clearly - and puts it "over there" where I can watch it, observe it - and choose and make decisions.

Because of this part of my healing, and how it works for me, it's hard for me to see the usefulness in intentionally reliving old pain now. I spent a good many years doing just that, though. I think I needed to say it enough times, till I really "heard" myself... believed myself... trusted myself and the conclusions I was drawing from the facts (including emotional ones) I could gather. Until, as Hops was saying, it just gets boring... there was nothing else left to "mine" from those memories except the same old pain... and the same old pain just kept me going in the same old circles or loops...and all the details of that story are just one fact about me - like my freckles - that I can't really change. But how I think about it - what I focus on now - oh yes, much has changed there!

I really think studying how I participate in my own "emotional seizures" was the key to learning WHAT to change and HOW. Accepting that my emotional perception might really have an extremely low threshhold for those pain threats... helps. Because I usually think of myself as a "tough guy" - can take a licking & keep on ticking - or that I've endured so much for so long, I've completely ignored the fact that my emotional perception has been rubbed raw, been overused, sprained... so even the lightest breeze can be painful, at times. Because my bioNic mom didn't take care of this aspect of me... I never internalized how to do this for myself. It's a little late now... but I am making progress. Sure, I wish it was faster... easier... over with and move on. But I got 50+ years of doing it differently... it's gonna take a little time for me to "undo" and "unlearn", you know?

Right now - all this is just words on a screen. You'll have your own words and feelings to go with your experience of your working through and ultimate solution. And then, you'll own that part of yourself... you'll take that part of you away from where the pain is, comfort her, protect her and let her scream "NO MORE"... and fewer and fewer things that happen now, will trigger the old pain loops... and reactions... and defenses... and yadda-yadda-yadda...

(If I can write all these words to say something pretty simple... just IMAGINE what my brain is like, when I'm triggered into racing thoughts - leaps to catastrophic conclusions - and seeing monsters under every piece of furniture... it's a CURSE!! LOL....)

[Gaining Strength]

My late father's wife of 3 years is much like him in many ways. 
I did not come to know this until after his death.
Her existence evokes in me much of the same stuff he did.
It is difficutl to convey or explain.

My father (and his wife) are seldom direct in their condemnation but it lurks underneath a false cheeriness.
The condemnation is evoked behind the person's back.

I am understanding how he lurks within me to sabotage so much.
As I approach some task before me I anticipate that it will not be done well.  I usually don't have the help or resources needed to make the task easy.  And that lack of help or resources will come back to bite me in criticism or condmenation either in a short comment made to look humorous, like a teasing jab (though no kindness exists) designed specifically so that the recipient (me) looks bad if he/she (I) react to it because it was, of course, done all in fun (except to the recipient.)  The perpetrator (especially my father) never looks bad.

The damage done by this over years is powerful.
That woman does it well, as well.
A short clipped, off-handed remark - well placed, seemingly casual that does great damage to the reputation.

A set up, assignment of task, contribution of zero necessary resources, in a setting where normally there is shared responsibility, then off-handed curt condemnation when task not completed on time or in acceptable fashion.  The whole thing is a setup.  A setup to destroy or beat down.  All the while looking utterly innocent.  Much like the damage done in a beating with a phone book.  Only the victim complaining causes a raised eyebrow - accusations would fall completely short.  This is what clever, and proficient abusers do.  It is terribly sad how easy it is to fall into this pit of victimhood.  Very difficult to get out not the least of which is due to the difficutly to understand what is happening , not to mention how powerful the psychological victimhood takes on this experience as the norm. (Wishing I had PRs proficiency with language to express my thoughts and understanding.)

[Gaining Strength]

river - excellent post #16.
helpful on many levels.
yesterday i bought some index cards to keep in my purse so I can write when the spirit moves.
I should go back to recording such thoghts - that might overcome that writing barrier.

That blackhole thing and that appearance v. reality thing
funny how I was drawn to the shekspearean theme of reality v appearance as a teen while totally unconscious of what a stronglehold it had on me.

[Gaining Strength]

hops - I love ya but I flat out disagree with you on the "best they could" thing.  That's part of my point in this thread.  my father intentionally inflicted harm - that is NOT in anyway - "the best he could do."  He made an intentional choice.  This has nothing to do with forgiveness or not.  It has to do with understanding the action at work.  Everything we do is NOT our best.  That is a very deterministic philosophy which simply absolves us of all personal responsibility for any and everything.  I don't buy it for my parents nor do I buy it for myself nor for humanity at large.

[sunblue]

I’m really intrigued by the subject of this post.  And I can so identify with it.  Sometimes it is much easier to acknowledge and see the damage done by the primary narcissist in the family---the one that “outwardly” exhibits outrageous, painful behavior.  Yet, I agree, the person I identify as a “co-N”, someone who is not technically N him/herself but who enables and supports the N or who fails to stand up or take responsibility is equally, or even, more at fault.  Why more?  It’s because they are not Ns---they know better, are capable of better…they just deliberately CHOOSE not to do better----not to stand up and take responsibility.  But many times, it’s often difficult to be hard on these “co-Ns” because the very nature of their co-dependency is that their personalities are more benign, kinder and far less deliberately cruel than that of the N.  If you take their behavior regarding the primary N away, they no doubt would be a good, loving person.  But, of course, you can’t do that because the primary N IS their life.

I personally have never known a “closeted” N.  All the Ns I’ve been around have been blatant---or perhaps they’ve just been blatant to me and not others. It was obvious that something is seriously wrong with them. 

I agree that the “unintentional” damage is much worse….because it could have been prevented.  The “unintentional N” looks the other way at the pain that is being caused…but is aware of it.  They just bury it, turn the other way or pretend people (usually the very children and family they purport to care so much about) are not being hurt.

For me, the situation is reverse of Gaining Strength.  My dad is the “co-N” and my mother and sister the evil Ns.  My dad who is by all accounts sweet and pure of spirit, nevertheless, looked the other way my whole life and allowed the Ns to control and destroy our family and damage my brother and myself.  Is he aware of it?  Yes.  Will he acknowledge, speak or do something about it.  No.  So, yes, he is as guilty, if not more so, as the Ns who caused the damage.

My dad has been critically ill, and I had hoped in this delicate stage of his life, in quite moments of the evening with just he and I, he might have offered a glimmer of acknowledgement, regret or empathy for me.  But there was none.  He is slowly recovering and the Narcissism during this period has ramped up even more than I ever imagined.  It has proved to me more than ever that Narcissism is indeed a true and cruel sickness.  These people are very, very sick individuals.  It is a source of deep sadness and loneliness……I am trying to look at these people in a way that takes me out of the picture, like an out of body experience….but it is not easy.  For non-Ns like us, it is difficult not to broach these situations based in common sense, common humanity….but that is where we go wrong.  Their very disorders dictate they are incapable of behaving in a human way.

So I identify with the “unintentional N” role in the pain that is caused.  But like the N, they have a sickness of their own.  It is easier to expect more from them because we know they are capable of more….but they are just as unable to respond in an appropriate way as the N is.