Finally! An answer...

[sKePTiKal]

an answer to what's dysfunctional in my family... what the name is... and it was right there in front of me the whole time. Oh well.

I'm calling it pathological passive-aggressiveness. Because my mom & bro's personalities - their whole identities - are based on this controlling and manipulative strategy. It bears a lot of resemblance to Nism... BPD even... and lines are, in reality, very blurry between all these PDs with those two. But the predominant behavior involved that's dysfunctional is clearly, undeniably (except by them, of course) P-A.

It also explains my role in the FOO - how I cooperated and participated in my own abuse. I was more than happy to oblige them by becoming angry at their impossibly frustrating, invalidating and disempowering behaviors. I even went so far, as to adopt the "if you can't beat 'em - join 'em" strategy of mimicking their style of behavior (self-abuse & sabotage)... just to feel "accepted" by them and not the "enemy", I suppose because I hoped that then, they'd finally care about me. Riiiiiigght...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was something that happened on my trip; a slow-dawning realization as I puzzled through whys and hows of trying to understand both the past and the present situations I find myself in with my brother... and because they are joined at the hip and brain... my mother as well. Because my brother assiduously avoided me, I was left with his wife - the SIL that's taken my place, my role in their sick dramas. I've been aware of the P-A behaviors, all through my process of healing; including my own... but I really didn't see how central and important it is to the dynamic. Maybe it was SILs anger at my brother that triggered the final association and connection and helped me finally understand.

:: shivers!!:: 

When faced with all this again, for some reason... I didn't really get visibly angry or respond that way to them. I AM angry, mind you... I went to the expense of travelling up there to help out my brother and help reach a decision about care for my mother and as it turns out, a.) he didn't need me to help out and b.) despite having made arrangements for temporary nursing home care - which was the doctor's strong recommendation - she is being cared for at home, which for a lot of logistical & medical reasons is setting up the conditions for a larger problem and possibly setting my mom up for a relapse, a fall, or worse. It was clear to both SIL and myself, that when my brother didn't come home to talk to me, as we'd arranged - and we finally heard from him that he was going to the hospital instead - that he was going to do just what he wanted in spite of the doctor's recommendations. I went back to my hotel and prepared to get on my flight the next morning. All told, in 4 days, my bro and I spent a total of maybe - at most - two hours together.

I know this isn't going to end well. In the 10 years or so that they've been married, I haven't been that close to SIL, though I did like her. She's 20 some years younger than my brother and bless her heart - she wasn't even consulted about my mom living with them. It was just announced to her. I hadn't heard that before. Now I have her phone and email. She is very, very angry - and it's old and deep anger. I have been scrupulous about minding my own business, staying out of the danger zone of triangulations and boundary violations, but it's clear that she can use some positive support. Unlike me, she doesn't doubt her own sanity or think there's something wrong with herself for not being just like them. I guess that's the difference in age, relationship and exposure during personality development.

The mother - GC son relationship never had any room for me in it. I finally understood that when SIL told me that in reality bro is married to my mother. That's more than just she feels this way, you know. Little, but significant things from the past and present all come into clarity with that one piece of reality. Explanations for why, even after he was out of college and an adult - he still kept a room at mother's and went home for the "summer".... until he moved her into his own home. It explains why brother rejects even expert advice on business decisions - with simply saying no - and is now putting me in a position where I must find a non-aggressive means of defending myself or dissolve the relationship. It explains the complete unjustified lack of trust he has in me. S'all about control... you know? It also explains the perception I had - both when my dad died, and now this - where I sensed his almost toddler like emotional neediness and dependency; but he himself wouldn't admit to that at all, when I asked him to express himself.

So.... setting my own path and sticking to it.... and letting all this settle around me before doing anything, except for that which has already been initiated. Doing the research on how to cope with p-a people first... and taking another look at my own; looking for the stressors that send me back into self-sabotage/abuse... here are a couple useful things I found.

I'll copy into new posts...

[sKePTiKal]

http://mental-health.families.com/blog/dealing-with-a-passive-aggressive-manipulator-2

Dealing with a Passive-Aggressive Manipulator (2)
by Beth McHugh | More from this Blogger

In Dealing with a Passive-Aggressive Manipulator (1), we looked at some of the thoughts patterns, beliefs, and behaviors of the passive-aggressive person. In this article, we will look at ways to minimize the damage they can cause in your life.

Because the passive-aggressive person inherently believes they are blameless, innocent, and basically good people, anything that threatens that view of themselves threatens the very core of their being. They live in a world where they must conceal all the "awful" things about themselves at all costs.


Yet, for the most, none of these things are awful at all. They are normal human emotions. Emotions like anger, disappointment, sorrow. The passive-aggressive, perfect as they are in their own minds, simply do not get angry. They do not yell, nor are they so undignified as to lose their temper. They'll leave that up to you, so that, once again, they can justify that they are the ones in control. While you, on the other hand, are clearly a difficult and hurtful person.

As they hunger so much for approval, if they don't get it when they expect, the rage will come out. But the rage comes out in a muted form: sighs, sulks, sniffs. That way, they can easily maintain their façade, if questioned, that they are not angry at all. Somehow admitting to normal human emotions is next to impossible for these people.

So, how best to cope with one?

1. If you ask "What is wrong?" in response to a period of pronounced sighing or sulking and the answer is "Oh, nothing," simply say, "Okay". This is making the PA responsible for their own responses. In time it may make them actually admit that they are angry, and valuable progress may be made. As a bonus, you, as the potential victim, will not get sucked in to yet another round of Question and Answer Time, where you will ultimately lose.

2. Be direct and assertive yourself. If you are angry, say so. If you are disappointed with a passive-aggressive, let them know. Do not be sidetracked into using their language of vagueness and non-assertiveness. Insist on the language of reality.

3. Do not enter into a battle with a PA; once you have done so, you have lost the war. The only person you can change in this situation is yourself, so you must approach each potential "battle" by suspending your own beliefs about the way your relationship with this person "should" be. You must accept that it is not going to be the way it "should be." Easy to say, hard to do, but necessary for your own mental health.

4. Observe their actions, not their words. Although they genuinely believe they do everything for other's interest and not their own, their actions speak louder than their words. Do not take their sugary platitudes at face value, it is only their actions that you should take note of.

5. Always give lots of positive feedback. As PA's crave love, when they do genuinely perform well, heap praise on them. Technically this is a form of counter-manipulation, but honest praise is still honest praise.

6. Avoid criticism. This will only elicit an endless stream of explanations, rather than what you want: an apology. Nor will there be any behavior changes. Accept that apologies or personality changes are almost impossible to come by with a person with this affliction.
7. Do not waste your time attempting to explain to the PA why their behavior is in error. It's easy to believe that at some point you will get through to this person and they will experience the "Ah-ha!" phenomenon, and all will be well. This is particularly the case with people who are themselves very rational and logical. This process cannot work with the PA.

8. If you can't control your temper, avoid interacting with a PA. Your temper will be interpreted by them as further evidence of your abuse towards them, and further justify their own position as innocent martyr. Under these circumstances, it is better to keep your distance.

[sKePTiKal]

http://www.newliving.com/issues/nov_2003/articles/passive.html

NOTE: this is a book by the author of below, that might be helpful: The Anger Trap


Dealing with the Passive-Agressive Personality
by Dr. Les Carter

Nancy was at her wits end, not knowing how to proceed in her relationship with Norman. “He’s the most unreachable person I know,” she said. “He’s made one promise after another about improving our marriage, but nothing ever comes of it.”

Occasionally, she would receive reassurances from her husband about being cooperative but in reality, he was just saying what was necessary to momentarily get her off his back. He would give one word answers to her questions or perhaps he would not respond at all. He would forget birthdays and anniversaries. “What angers me most,” she said, “is that he did few of these things prior to marriage. Before we got married, he was a near-perfect gentleman, very considerate. He was funny and engaging, and always seemed available. Now, I feel so defrauded,” Nancy said.

Though not completely familiar with the term, Nancy was living with the quintessential passive-aggressive person. This manner of life is typified by emotionally abusive treatment of others through non-cooperation, evasiveness and behaviors that leave others disempowered. The goal of the passive-aggressive is to preserve self’s perceived needs at the other person’s expense. Though they may never say these words, their behavior communicates, “Try as hard as you like, but you will never pin me down. I’m only interested in my agenda.”

Often passive-aggressives can appear pleasant and congenial, but time eventually proves such qualities are a part of a disguise. Beneath the surface are traits that could be changed but are not.Most prominent are: a “quiet” anger, irrational fear and a need for control. Let’s look at each separately. A quiet commitment to anger: Some people falsely assume that anger is only manifested in loud raucous behavior. If you don’t shout or curse or throw things, you probably don’t have anger issues, Right? Anger, is not that one-dimensional. Passive-aggressives experience anger as a means of self-preservation. Instead, they choose to register their anger via non-compliance, hidden rebellion, withdrawal and seeming to act oblivious to everything. This behavior quietly shouts: “You bug me and I’m going to punish you for thinking counter to me.”

Irrational fear: While openness and vulnerability are part of the equation for healthy relations, passive-aggressives consider such traits threatening. “If I fully expose what I feel,” they tell themselves, “you’ll try to invalidate me.” They operate with low confidence that others can be trusted, and they often draw upon past unpleasant experiences that taught them to be guarded toward anyone who thinks differently. Insecurity and defensiveness, then, are primary traits that prompt them to fend off potential rejection.

The need for control: The passive aggressive has become convinced that the way to protect his or her fragile ego is to be in control as fully as possible. Rather than viewing relationships as a dynamic exchange of encouragement and understanding, they think in competitive terms. Who will win here and who will lose? Who is going to dominate and who will be the subordinate? Others are not considered potential partners as much as they are potential adversaries. Minimal exposure, then, becomes a tactic in preserving power.

Nancy asked a question common to someone connected to a passive aggressive. “How in the world can I make him change?” My response was to remind her that it is not her place to change someone, particularly one fiercely committed to passive stubbornness. Any coercive efforts from her would draw her into an emotional tug-of-war, and inevitably the passive aggressive would win.

“Focus instead on three things,” I suggested to Nancy. “First, recognize that your husband’s behavior is not a referendum about your worth. You can’t afford to place your own emotional stability into his or anyone else’s care. Second, in sober moments, speak non-coercively about your goals for the relationship. Make no demands, but let him know that you care about your future together.

You owe it to yourself to be open about your beliefs. Third, live with well-defined personal boundaries. If he chooses to be difficult, you can proceed with assertiveness and consequences. You need not beg for his permission or cooperation to live correctly.” It’s sad when individuals maintain a commitment to hidden rage, yet you need not be so drawn into the undertow that you also become unhealthy. When you choose not to enter into power games, you’ll not have to worry about who is declared the winner or the loser.

Dr. Les Carter, is the chief resident psychotherapist at the Minirth Clinic, Richardson, Texas. He is the author of the new book, “The Anger Trap” (Jossey-Bass, A Wiley Imprint, 2003, $21.95). For more information, visit www.AngerExpert.com or www.josseybass.com.

[Gaining Strength]

I just wrote an entire entry on the passive aggressiveness and its relationship with intentionality and a recent experience but thw whole damn thing (20 minutes worth of work) simply vanished into the nether world - electronically rendered voiceless again!!!!!

Oh PR - again - I am so fascinated by your understanding and process of unraveling the experience.  The passive-agressive stuff is like a magnet drawing us in a children and once inculcated it is like having been raised on junk food and as an adult switched to whole foods - near impossible to make the switch, the poison is so much a part of our being.

(tired and frustrated after losing so much work.  Just going to reread and come back another day.)

Yet, for the most, none of these things are awful at all. They are normal human emotions. Emotions like anger, disappointment, sorrow. The passive-aggressive, perfect as they are in their own minds, simply do not get angry. They do not yell, nor are they so undignified as to lose their temper. They'll leave that up to you, so that, once again, they can justify that they are the ones in control. While you, on the other hand, are clearly a difficult and hurtful person.

One need write no more to describe in general terms my mother/daughter relationship.

The need for control: The passive aggressive has become convinced that the way to protect his or her fragile ego is to be in control as fully as possible. Rather than viewing relationships as a dynamic exchange of encouragement and understanding, they think in competitive terms. Who will win here and who will lose? Who is going to dominate and who will be the subordinate? Others are not considered potential partners as much as they are potential adversaries. Minimal exposure, then, becomes a tactic in preserving power.

Bingo - this is my mother.  I am supposed to go help her today.  I cannot.  I am so riled up.

[Gaining Strength]

Observe their actions, not their words.

This is the source of so much confusion and frustration for me for so much of my life.  Even as a young adult i recognized the complete disconnect for me between words and actions.  I always got sucked in by words in spite of the repeated disparity between those words and the actions.  Unfortunately this focus and confusion and seeming "naivete" about words was not limited to my parents or family but I this extended out to strangers even and it has been very, very costly to me across the ages.

[Gaining Strength]

Do not enter into a battle with a PA; once you have done so, you have lost the war. The only person you can change in this situation is yourself, so you must approach each potential "battle" by suspending your own beliefs about the way your relationship with this person "should" be. You must accept that it is not going to be the way it "should be." Easy to say, hard to do, but necessary for your own mental health.

My response to this is don't tell me what - tell me how.
This rings so true - it aggitates all of my frustrations and irritations and struggles

Who enboldened the first line PR?  Did you do that or the author?  I don't even know why I am asking.  But it is so true.  And it is something that I have done time and time and time again.  Daily probably and lost, lost, lost every single time.  THAT is the way of my childhood.  I never understood how NOT to get into the battle.  It seemed (seems) like a battle for life for the very air we need to breathe.

When I was in my early 20s and saw a psychologist for the very first time our whole discussions were about shoulds, I was so tied into knots over shoulds.    The guy was nice and I'm sure good by some standards but could he not see how as a young person the only way I could have been so tied in knots was because someone had bound me up?  He did nothing to help me honestly but then truly even the couselor I have so loved never really helped me it was always up for me to figure it all up.  the most I ever got out of my 1000s of hours was someone on my side and that was something but it wasn't my idea of counseling. 

I was supposed to have been taught how to survive and how to understand and solve this issues by those who gave me life and supposedly loved me but those who gave me life never did love me.  And they didn't teach me how, not only because they didn't know but more specifically because they didn't want me to flourish, to survive even.

This is so helpful to read but it is also so jarring and irritating and frustrating and ....

[Gaining Strength]

If you can't control your temper, avoid interacting with a PA. Your temper will be interpreted by them as further evidence of your abuse towards them, and further justify their own position as innocent martyr. Under these circumstances, it is better to keep your distance.

This is so helpful.  I cannot wait to share this with my little boy about his grandmother.  He will completely understand this.

[sKePTiKal]

As I read those articles myself, I thought to myself that maybe you could relate too, GS.

For me, I find that I have adopted a lot of the same behaviors that I condemn in my FOO. They still pop up from time to time. In particular - I have gone to extremes to sabotage and abuse myself - thinking in my 12 yr old brain that since these are the rules where they live... I must live like that too... and being a competitive person - tried to "matter" to them by doing just what they do, in extremes. I had to read for myself that these self-destructive styles of behavior are an extreme form of P-A... to see where the hidden door of freedom from that self-condemning/self-isolating/self-abuse lies.

Kids operate in the world that feeds them; by the rules and values of that world. We don't know any different - until we grow up and experience other people, places and things in life - and STILL we maintain these old ill-fitting "accommodations" to insane FOOs. Me, too. I guess that's why I've always described myself as a "seeker"...

What Ann said over on your thread about inner child work, is important. It's how I got here. Lots of help from my T - and yes, it's vital that we do all the heavy lifting in T by ourselves; that there's no "how-to" guide - because we've been deprived of autonomy, independence, recognition and our Selves. We have been deprived of our unique, individual selves - which is the natural product or result of a "good enough" attachment with a parent, as a child. We each get "there" via our own roundabout way; unique to us. But the most important thing Ann said - is that we need to learn that it's appropriate for us to mourn that natural relationship of "belonging" that we've been deprived of - and also to find healthy ways to nurture other, healthier attachments outside of the FOO.

The mourning process takes a long time. I still mourn - my mother's illness and her refusal to accept what is in her best interests medically - declares to me that I lost her a long time ago and what I think, feel and want simply don't matter in her world. And it spotlights the need for me (for my own sake) to let her go. I kissed and hugged her and told her everything will be OK when I left and I just walked away. I have to, because it's dangerous for me to be involved and get caught up in the dramas - I have a very quick temper and tongue and despite the fact that I was almost too tired to be angry on this trip...

... it wouldn't take much to push those buttons and start up all the old games again, simply by expressing my own feelings. I don't have enough practice yet - to be angry, yet use the right techniques (like hops suggested in the elders thread) of communication to stay unentangled; unenmeshed; ungaslighted...

[sKePTiKal]

She does want to divorce him, Ann... she's said as much for years. But she's walking her own path, like I said. All I told her was, that I would be the one person who understood and didn't think she was horrible if she did.

I FELT.... really strange over the course of those days. I couldn't really name 1 feeling, so I 'spect it was a whole lot of feelings swirling together. But my boundaries held... my anger wasn't ready to explode at the least little offense or annoyance that I knew and expected I'd endure (and for that, I think all the work over the years of trying to understand the dynamics of my FOO and how it's exactly the emotion they hope to elicit - just so they can point fingers at me; blame me... etc... finally helped me get to a place where I knew, through and through - anger wasn't a helpful emotion in this situation).

What I wanted in this situation was to work on communicating with my brother and work on our process of compromise and agreement... and I believed that something as important as our mother's care and well-being would be enough motivation for him to "come to the table and deal fairly". It would've given us a framework for working through business decisions, too. Establish a pattern... a bit of trust... and enable him to be more open with me. The last time he threw a nuclear anger bomb my way... I asked him: what have I ever done to make you not trust me? I had stepped back into my analytical "safe room" and used every tool that I'd ever even heard of for dealing with difficult people... he never ever answered me.

GS -

Who enboldened the first line PR?  Did you do that or the author?  I don't even know why I am asking.  But it is so true.  And it is something that I have done time and time and time again.  Daily probably and lost, lost, lost every single time.  THAT is the way of my childhood.  I never understood how NOT to get into the battle.  It seemed (seems) like a battle for life for the very air we need to breathe.

Me too. I copied this back, because I don't think I answered too well last time. I bolded the lines - they bounced off me and as I read them, part of my brain was saying "I knew that". Even tho' I know things... I occasionally go ahead and ignore them anyway (the P-A denial of laws of nature applying to them)... to my dismay. I grew up and learned to think just like my codependent P-A mom/bro.... that's a perfect phrase for their "closed system". I was always trying to enter and be part of that system... believing, at some gut level - like you said "the very air we need to breathe" required that I be part of that system. Even at 12, I knew I would be better off as a runaway or an orphan than trying to keep trying to get into that "closed system" that had no room for me - except: I knew I needed money to survive, therefore I needed to finish school. By the time I was that age... I'd already had a couple "substitute mothers"... and the emotional intelligence to know why - even though intellectually I really didn't understand. Then I got separated from my emotional intelligence via trauma... and found myself stuck with mom and bro:

Adopting the same P-A behaviors was camoflauge - I was in enemy territory and in danger of completely losing my self (poor Twiggy) - in order to exist with some peace in their topsy-turvy universe, I had to - at least outwardly - appear to believe and support those beliefs. This is where Stockholm Syndrome comes in... it's like being part of a cult and brainwashed... I've used the word brainwashed since 1969 to describe what happened to me and it's still accurate; I drank the Kool-Aid...

Everyone has learned some P-A behaviors and will pull those out of their bag of coping skills, when there seems to be no other choice for getting through something. But when the P-A is pathological then we start getting into delusional beliefs, the eggshell minefield of hair-trigger, unpredictable anger, all completely tied together with one simple fact: I - as a person with my own feelings, wants, needs and beliefs - do not exist in their closed universe. I am discardable - like a cellophane wrapper; when I have served their purpose - I am discarded.

I ask my SELF: self? WHY in god's name would you want to be part of that universe when the "real world" that everyone else lives in, isn't like that?????

So, GS - I know you're no longer 12; I know you have the skills and the knowledge - and the ability to acquire more of both as needed - to survive and THRIVE without parents. Heck - you're doing an excellent job as a parent yourself!! Why is it so important for you to be part of your mom's weird world? You can still care for and about her - without living in that reality. She's not going to change EVER....

... right after the bolded part is the how-to you need/want: you can change yourself. It is possible to feel angry without showing it, expressing it - and playing right into that trap, setting the hook that keeps one going around & around the same old game. I learned a little of that from a business book on negotiations and compromise. Enough of it, I think, to mix in with this knowledge that I could keep myself "safe" from playing the game... still feel my feelings; know and own them... still trust myself and my own judgement...

I've learned that I simply can't - I don't think it's really possible - to think one's way through to "solving" the puzzle so that you can be YOU and also be accepted and loved by sick people. I've learned that I wasted a lot of time, energy and a lot of my life that could've been spent forming other relationships - totally obsessed with this one relationship and I wasn't taking "no" for an answer no matter how many ways and times they showed me I didn't matter to them; so I remained stuck in that obsession. For me, letting it go... saying "I love you and it'll be OK"... and walking away, was the right thing to do.

it was helpful, as a mirror image, to see my SIL expressing exactly what I've experienced over the years; the same frustration, helplessness, resignition, powerlessness to affect change in the closed system. She exists outside it - except when she is the target of blame and anger. Just like me; just like my Dad. She's a grown up; she'll make her own decisions in her own way, in her own time. I respect that. I didn't try to excuse bro & mom to her... and the only explanations I made, validated what she was saying to me.

I heard real emotional pain in my bro's request for me to travel that far. I do care and I do understand that he completely shuts down and doesn't function in emotional situations. But I'm not so hopeful that he can free himself - ever - from the P-A way of being, even with therapy. So I had boundaries in place - before I even agreed to go - to prevent a whole lot of unspoken expectations of me being dropped on my head.

And yes, I was angry. No denying that - but I was also aware that bro & mom really didn't care that I was angry; and when one doesn't matter - that emotion can (and for me usually does) turn self-destructive. It was the OLD anger I was feeling. Intellectually, I rather expected the outcome that happened - but I'd released that before I got on the plane. So, instead of being self-destructive, this time my anger has been forged into something else... maybe it's self-validation; I don't know for sure.

But - I don't need my mommy in order to be "OK" anymore. My MIL taught me that. And she taught me how to say goodbye with love. I don't know how much of my life I have left to live - nor what shape it'll be - but I'm not wasting anymore time trying to do the impossible. Yes, I also have faint echos of guilt (it's amazing how faint they are now)... of being "bad" by breaking some taboo... yes, I worry that I'm crossing the line from healthy self-interest to N-selfishness... but each of us only gets so many minutes of life and we don't know how many. I have survived - warts & all - and I'm letting go of people who don't want me anyway - no matter what they SAY. Lots of other people do want to be around me, include me, love me...

I am OK; just FINE without my mom and bro's approval or acceptance or acknowledgement of me.

[Gaining Strength]

Why is it so important for you to be part of your mom's weird world?

I think the answer to that question is quite simply - because I have not mourned the loss.
The answer is simple but the doing of it is not.
The doing of it is not a flipping of the switch.
the doing of it seems to have a consciousness of its own.  I don't know how to flip that switch.
Even before I read your post this morning I found myself tuning into and understanding just yesterday how imperitive the mourning portion is and I found myself entering it but that pain hit a point that was beyond overwhelming and as suddenly as I found myself immersed in the process I was out of it.  And I understood - the pain of it is beyond tolerable.  It is unbearable.  

The understanding of what is encompassed in "it" (the pain of it) is part of that process.  It is a process that I cannot deny that clearly both of my parents and my two brothers have chosen to avoid - and somehow shutting me out of their lives is part of shutting out that pain - not sure how the pain and I  are connected for them but only certain that they somehow  are.  I will go into that mourning process again and again but it does not seem to be accessible at my will.  It seems to decide how and when and how long and how deep I can go in.  While mourning, greiving are the key  the pain of the grief is not only beyond this universe they are lonely and horrific.  They are abyssmal.

[sKePTiKal]

Thank you. I do understand your excellent explanation...

and yes, sometimes the mourning process does have a "mind of it's own"... and I would never recommend taking it all on at one time, trying to do it all at once. I didn't do that either... I couldn't and still function in my present life. The other thing, is that you don't HAVE TO do it alone - though you may choose to do a lot of it this way.

In some ways - the years I've spent here on the board could be described as me sharing my mourning/healing process - and also engaging in the healthier relationships I mentioned - comfort offered and received (there are so many giving people here!) - to be able to heal another step along the way. And I've been pretty whiny, bitchy, etc about it... to be perfectly honest. And I haven't been avoided or dismissed or raged at...

... that in itself, is a very deep healing experience.

[Hopalong]

I don't know how to flip that switch.

I understand this, ((((((GS)))))))).

I also think anxiety is an enormous impediment to successful grieving.
It's very hard to mourn, which is a deep and poetic healing process, when you're hypervigilant for survival reasons.

Safety first.

I wonder, thinking of safety and experimenting with approaching that switch, whether you've ever explored a co-counseling or re-evaluation counseling class? (It does not involve money.) I am ambivalent, actually oppositional, about some of the theoretic background of this self-help community. But I have an extremely positive memory of the meetings or sessions--I'll tell you why.

When I think of lovely you, and what you have over and over so clearly identified that you need, I do sometimes think of them (several very wonderful folks I know in my church are active and fulfilled RC members, too).

What happens in the sessions is:

--being held
--being heard
--being saturated in an unconditionally loving and tender response
--being touched
--being comforted

You might try it. My advice would be to read the "literature" with one eye shut and one ear plugged. But experience the people and the meetings/sessions with the animal heart open.

It doesn't matter about the wording. There really is something very healing about having someone's arm draped about you, and compassionate eyes fully focused on you, while you let it all out.

xo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hey tt! How are you?

I ran across that list too... and was able to check off each thing as applying. SIGH. [Quintessentially P-A? No, I still like pathological better as the qualifying adjective...]

Ya know, somewhere in this or the other thread... I said that I had some of those P-A traits myself. I think the one in particular that I was thinking of, isn't on this list. It's where a person makes helpful suggestions to the P-A... over & over... trying to come up with acceptable options or solutions or ways forward... and the P-A rejects each and every one; none of them are "just right". I guess it's the underlying idea that one is an exceptional, unusual, special case - there's no way some common ordinary or rational, reasonable solution could fix that. We could call that one, insistantly argumentative. I think I've let go of this for the most part... but I also know it still lurks.

Typically, none of the things on your list really apply to me. People don't describe me like this. However - where things get warped - is that I've been told I was those things... projection. And that makes the last item on your list something to explore...

Thought of Being Oppressed: Passive aggressive people often think that they are not treated fairly. According to them, they are the innocent victims of oppressive treatment. Worst is the case, when they become offensive on seeing that you are upset due to their behavior.

I have also had this one projected on me, over and over as well as used on me. My bro is continuing to do this. The fact that I'm subject to anxiety when the stress of dealing with P-A behavior opens me up to a perceived danger that he is denying.... only feeds into the argument that I'm not being fair, because I will grasp at straws and any possibility at all...

and the reason is, because the P-A bro-mom team have done such a great smear job on my sanity... that I'm not to be believed because I've "always been this way"  - i.e., crazy - and therefore my definition of fair is also crazy... and their portrayal of victimhood is so well rehersed... this one ALWAYS gets turned around on me.

So far. It's time for that to change.

[Hopalong]

I don't have enough practice yet - to be angry, yet use the right techniques (like hops suggested in the elders thread) of communication

Oh heck, ((((((((PR)))))))))), I don't either.

It's easy for me to write these fantasy monologues...

I know it's a "fer piece" ahead to actually smoothly speak them.

I think you're really looking at, and articulating, a very significant threshold you've already crossed.

Kudos.

xo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Hopsy-bunny...

yeah, but you've actually done the training in the communication style (and that's practice)... for me it's more like a rumor that some people can actually talk TO each other without being manipulative, derogative and juvenile and hostile about a conflict. I do have a good business book on negotiation... and it also mentions this style of communication. Hubs and I can do this - but he's special. 

Obviously, going forward into even more difficult situations with MomBro I'm going to need to expand and update my toolkit of skills. To protect myself, yes... but also to be heard, have my opinion and position recognized, accepted... and have fruitful, effective and efficient discussions on solutions or new ventures, etc. Do I hold out much hope that even this will establish a functional two-way relationship of a business nature? No - not really. So... as in the old Sufi tale: I'm also going to trust in God and tie my camel. In other words, I'm going to explore all the options available to me, if I choose to go completely NC. I can't talk to hubs about this yet - he'll have a panic-attack meltdown about finances. But, we are going through a formal financial planning process and the team of folks have already mentioned to me that a complete break with Bro might be in my best interest. I found it odd confessing that being in business with my bro (after explaining what he did against Drs recommendation) terrified me, to a CPA... LOL!!! But she said they do deal with touchy, sensitive family dynamics and that if I needed to talk anything through I should feel free to call her. I think I'm going to like these people.

What I find absolutely fascinating about my own emotions in this saga... is that - I felt sorry for my brother and agreed to go help out. I got information from nurses and the doctor very easily; they were very helpful (MomBro - they're one two headed entity-  are still complaining that no one told them anything or that everyone told them something different; perhaps they didn't understand that options and choices are different things and you're supposed to pick one and decide...). Well, so I helped by convincing mom that she would recover better & faster if she visited a nursing home for a couple of weeks - like the Dr recommended. Bro seemed to concur and even made the arrangements... and I thought I'd done my good deed for the day; there was a reason for me to go the expense of the trip, you know? All I asked was a couple hours of his time to go over some business stuff - and instead he decided to pull his bait & switch on the care she'd receive recovering. So my expense and effort were completely nullified - for nothing, except for the side benefit of hanging out with SIL and comparing notes. What do you do when you're asked to help take care of someone; you do so because you care and then they reject it so blatantly?

I'm irritated about that. Not really angry... and the odd thing is that I feel guilty for not being angry and jumping up and down screaming about the reality-based consequences of MomBro's decision... it's as if I'm self-nominating myself for the job of shaking them out of their delusions (out of habit; my old role...) but I can't quite bring myself to do this ONE MORE TIME...

... as if, accepting that I can do nothing and say nothing that will have an impact or motivate change for either of them... it's as if I just don't care enough anymore to be angry... and some part of me still thinks that's a bad thing; a wrong that I should feel guilty for. But it's always been way - I've always had raging meltdowns to get them to see sense and they've ignored me anyway. A much bigger part of me feels like - why bother? It'll only get me more hooked into the drama if I do that anyway. They already have their blame-target in my SIL... but she's not there. Neither are the children; they've gone to her mom's for Easter and stayed in a hotel last night. I don't know if they'll be back home on Monday or not yet.

Last Monday, while I was travelling, SIL informed bro that she can't do the marriage anymore this way. This has been brewing for more than 2 years. I was unaware that she was serious and at this point, about this. She did say that she'd be very angry if he followed through and brought my mom home to recover. People who emotionally abuse have no idea that their delusion of "control" over others is just that - a delusion. They really do believe they can anger & guilt people into becoming blame-puppets and slaves and don't comprehend that we have free will and choices and the power to make those choices, on our own.

My mother is recovering somewhat; dialysis will probably stop next week. She is still pretty mentally foggy. She doesn't understand the infections she had; doesn't understand that she was probably 24 hrs or less from dying, without medical intervention. And she was left alone, without a cordless phone and no way to call for help, except the upstairs kitchen phone last night, bragging about how she could go up and down stairs, if she just went slow.

I am afraid to go back to my caller ID screening of her calls... in case the one time I don't pick up or listen to voicemail... is the one time she really needs help. Sounds like I'm caught huh?