misery

[Ales2]

Quick update.

Thanks everybody for the posts and support. Doing much better than I was a month ago. Really hanging in there and making HUGE strides since a couple of weeks ago. I got really frustrated while driving with the old lady neighbor ( a long tedious story I wont bore you with) where I had one epiphany and then a week later, I kept reading this Marianne Williamson chapter on Surrender and had another epiphany. One was a very strong feeling related to my NMother issues, the other, a response to my own wounded self issues.
Today, I was thinking that the NMother issue is PROBLEM SOLVED, although I recognize this isn't the end, there will be further things down the road and the wounded self issues are WOUND HEALED, even though again, I know issues can still come up. Difference is to me that I FEEL that I have some form of closure from the past three years of total HELL I was living in and the feeling of closure, truly feels positive, its hard to explain, but it makes it easy for me to move on and make progress.

I can tell things are different, because I met a new friend today and when she went into the death of her alcoholic N mom, I responded from the place of an autonomous adult who understands my issues with a sense of clarity and distance, rather than the hurt wounded child I have been feeling like in the last three years.

Anyway, thanks to everybody here at the board - you've all been a great help to me. I hope that everyone is doing well! (((((HUGS)))))))

[Ales2]

I had an AHA moment the other day while walking:

the defintion of insanity, doing same thing expecting another result.  depression is doing the good things and getting no result. 

I decided that the word "depression" for me is really defined by consistently putting good, meaningful effort into a black hole or not having the effort reciprocated, appreciated or rewarded.  I then think of effort as a negative action with negative consequences - since nothing good comes out of it. Kind of like being on a hamster wheel when you really want to be on a freeway going somewhere. Ouch.

hmm.. so how do I take action to get desired results?

[Hopalong]

Wow, Ales. That was so painful to read, and really triggered some recognition in me.
Such a sad definition but so emotionally logical.

What popped into my head next (that I struggle to do) is that the only answer
is SELF-recognition, SELF-appreciation, SELF-affirmation.

When we (I) are (am) dependent on others' opinions or affirmation to feel good about ourselves,
classic result of being children of Ns...there is no soothing our own grief until we really do
experience self-love.

That kindness and compassion, turned right around so it shines into our own chests.
And, not somebody's else's (although that's huge when it happens). But our own.

I've only visualized it that intentionally a few times (and hypnosis was one of the most
powerful times) ... but when I did, it was very very healing and .... just amazing.

I think, for some, prayer is also a form of self-love. Kind of the long way around to
asking compassion to come in. All the same thing though. I envy the faithful. Their trust.

My grandmother (whom I only remember seeing once) had a favorite hymn, and
I find the lyric as moving and powerful now as I did when I was a theist, as
(ironically) the words are just so...humane:

Come, Ye Disconsolate

Come, ye disconsolate, where'ere you languish.
Come to the mercy seat, fervently kneel.
Here, bring your wounded heart.
Here, tell your anguish.
Earth has no sorrow, that heaven cannot heal.

I don't believe in heaven. But it doesn't matter.
I do believe in the power of that invitation.
Such incredible kindness in it.

And that's what I think we need to give ourselves,
so we won't live depressed. The mercy of tending our own sore hearts,
being as actually (not cerebrally) kind to our sad selves as we'd wish any
"dream mother" had been.

Then, I think we start to get fixed.

If you can find it, Roberta Flack and Donny Hathaway sang that
as a duet on one of her albums. It's breathtaking. When you hear
her sing that? "Come, you sad, sad one..." it is just like the loving
lap of the whole world just invited you to crawl up and feel safe at last.

Even though I don't understand it, I can HEAR it. She was singing
about something real.

love,
Hops

[Ales2]

Bones, Phoenix, Hops - thank you - all very helpful posts. Much appreciated.

Doing much better. The closure I got on those issues last month seemed to be very helpful. Made it through another round of PMS (which is usually awful) without feeling overly depressed.

Next question. OK. I've been NC since summer last year, so about a year from NMom. The inciting incident was her showing up on my apartment doorstep, barging in and accusing me of stealing some of my Dad's (whose been gone since 2000) paperwork. It was really a ploy to tell me she was not going to continue with a financial promise she made. I learned many months later that she did the same to my brother around the same time. We can't both have stolen the same paperwork..... hmmmm......A story for another time.

Anyway, so here is my question. What do I about the NC issue with a prospective boyfriend who I plan to marry? I can offer a good (i.e completely honest coming from an autonomous adult with clarity and distance)  answer, but I am concerned about getting married when NC w/NMom. I'm old enough (43)  to say "she's not a big part of my life anymore" and have that be acceptable to someone but will be concerned about a backlash in the future . The wedding I want is on a beach somewhere with 10 people - nothing lavish at all and that will likely mean she will not be included. But wonder about the long term effects of not inviting my NMom to a wedding...

Any thoughts on this?  What to do, say etc in this situation?

[BonesMS]

Bones, Phoenix, Hops - thank you - all very helpful posts. Much appreciated.

Doing much better. The closure I got on those issues last month seemed to be very helpful. Made it through another round of PMS (which is usually awful) without feeling overly depressed.

Next question. OK. I've been NC since summer last year, so about a year from NMom. The inciting incident was her showing up on my apartment doorstep, barging in and accusing me of stealing some of my Dad's (whose been gone since 2000) paperwork. It was really a ploy to tell me she was not going to continue with a financial promise she made. I learned many months later that she did the same to my brother around the same time. We can't both have stolen the same paperwork..... hmmmm......A story for another time.

Anyway, so here is my question. What do I about the NC issue with a prospective boyfriend who I plan to marry? I can offer a good (i.e completely honest coming from an autonomous adult with clarity and distance)  answer, but I am concerned about getting married when NC w/NMom. I'm old enough (43)  to say "she's not a big part of my life anymore" and have that be acceptable to someone but will be concerned about a backlash in the future . The wedding I want is on a beach somewhere with 10 people - nothing lavish at all and that will likely mean she will not be included. But wonder about the long term effects of not inviting my NMom to a wedding...

Any thoughts on this?  What to do, say etc in this situation?

Morning, Ales.

If I may respond based on the experience of dealing with the NQueen at my NGCB's wedding.  He learned VERY QUICKLY that inviting HER to HIS wedding was a HUGE mistake because the NQueen NWomb-Donor INSISTED on making EVERYTHING ABOUT HERSELF, HERSELF, HERSELF and tried to force all the wedding guests to feel sorry for HER because her PRIZE POSSESSION , (NGCB) REFUSED TO RETURN HOME TO HER BECAUSE SHE OWNED HIM BODY AND SOUL!  She became such a disruption that I finally walked over to her and said:  "Shut the F*** UP!  This is HIS WEDDING DAY!  IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!!!"  (Yeah, I paid the price, later, for doing that and, at the same time, I didn't see any other option.)

NQueens will always remain NQueens and, when given any opportunity, they WILL try to force everyone's attention on themselves and they have no hesitation to ruin anyone's wedding to do so!  It's not a matter of "IF" they will do something obnoxious to ruin someone else's wedding day, it's more a matter of WHAT and WHEN they will DESTROY WHAT IS PRECIOUS TO YOU so THEY CAN BE CENTER STAGE AT ALL TIMES AND AT ALL COSTS!

Just saying, if I were you, I would keep continuing the NC and NOT give her the opportunity to do what the NQueen did at my NGCB's wedding.  What should have been a beautiful occasion was turned into a nightmare because of her sick and twisted behaviors!

Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

Bones

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Ales...

are you worried about a backlash from Nmom? or from your guy? That part of the question wasn't clear for me. I can see where both might bother you! 

[Hopalong]

Tough as it might be...oh hell.

I don't have an answer.

Except that by 43, elopement sounds pretty good.

xo

Hops

[Ales2]

What should have been a beautiful occasion was turned into a nightmare because of her sick and twisted behaviors!

In my case, my NMoms acrtions are mostly behind closed doors and no one in the extended family knows that she is the trouble for us (me and brother) she is. I'd almost welsome a chance for relatives to see how mean and malicious she is....what is more likely to happen for me is that something will go wrong behind the scenes that will have a lasting impact but will have no concrete answers or reasoning.  Sorry that happened to you Bones - all the wasted drama when life could be better spent getting along.

are you worried about a backlash from Nmom? or from your guy? That part of the question wasn't clear for me. I can see where both might bother you!

You are right! Both. Worried initially that not getting along with a major member of the family is a deterrent to marriage or reflects  poorly on me from the boyfriend point of view. Part of it is the "honor your parents" bullshit and that makes me want to consider having a civil relationship with her (even though we are now NC) Weirdly, I'd never think about being phony (nice when you've had enough, nice to keep the peace) to stay on someones good side b/c I hate manipulators and dont like to be phony.  That said, I also worry about her having any knowledge of my life. I dont want her involved, I like being NC, so far there have been minimal consequences, but I expect that it cannot last. Something will come along that will require contact or being NC will blow up and the longer I am NC, the more concerned I am that the backlash (whatever it is) will be horrific. And, I dont want anything horrific to come along that can jeopardize my relationship. Yet, I know that is just what could happen.

Except that by 43, elopement sounds pretty good.

Thanks Hops, I agree - I have accepted this and would be happy to elope.

Thanks everyone for responses, as I have no one else these days to discuss these matters with. I appreciate it all very much. 

[sKePTiKal]

Eloping is a great choice - and romantic, too! When and if, you get to that point in the relationship.

A biggie milestone for me, if I were in your shoes, would be if your Guy accepted that "mom" wasn't going to be part of your experience of family... and why. It's incredibly important to have his support and understanding and validation for your decision about NC. My Ex #2 insisted that I maintain my relationship with my mom and even pushed me to "just deal with it" by sending me off into some of her worst melt-down situations - alone. That's one of the reasons he's an EX, needless to say. And that was before therapy...

My current hubs has met my mom once and after the first night of our visit, agreed to my pleas to get us a hotel room for the rest of the stay. I thought it was important for him to see for himself, first-hand. I really needed him to believe me and have that level of support, since he hadn't had much experience with this sort of weirdness - just his Ex #2. My mom doesn't even remember what my hubs' name is... and he keeps coming up with ways I can cut her phone sessions short - heehee! He's tired of me "going away" and having to transition back to normal and real life after another one of her broken record phone calls.

If I'd known before we ran off to the beach to be married, what was "wrong" I would've told him. I think it would've been OK, too. It was only after we'd been married a few years and I noticed that all my old patterns were getting repeated in our wonderful relationship - and that scared the pants off me - that I got to where therapy was the only option for figuring out what the hell was "wrong" and why I was programmed this way. I don't know that I could be where I am now - without him and all his creative, caring support through the darkest times.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, that your guy is one like mine, Ales.

[Ales2]

Phoenix - Thanks this is great.

A biggie milestone for me, if I were in your shoes, would be if your Guy accepted that "mom" wasn't going to be part of your experience of family... and why.

I'm working on how this can work. I want to be at peace and have harmony with the NM relationship and that might require that he, just like you said, accept that our autonomy as a couple will be threatened if we dont assert boundaries.  I am also thinking that now that my brother and I are working on a relationship which we've never really had before, he might be an ally since the NM caused hardships with his wife and marriage. He'd certainly be able to help speak up and offer someones else understanding, so I would not be alone.  So, thanks Phoenix, your advice was very helpful.

[river]

Several years ago someone on this board raved about a super-food (one of those whole foods, greatly concentrated greens powders things). I took it in smoothies and it helped a LOT! Energy changed, everything.

Then I slacked off (it ain't cheap) -- and just this week started doing this every day again. I feel very very very different than I did a week ago. I swear. Life isn't perfect but it has lifted my mood as well as my energy.

It tastes like eating a field (meaning a mix of grass and dirt, bleahh). But if you add a cup of frozen berries and maybe a handful of kale or whatever and then blend really well, it's like sort of weird tasting sludge...not good but not hideous. I just stand at the sink and relax and drink it down. Always happy to have a cuppa tea after and always glad I did it.
(I bought some called Green Vibrance...good stuff.)

Is that what this stuff is called?> thinking maybe I should try it.
Sorry for not reading the whole of this thread, but wanted to add my pennies worth:  if a T told me to take a drug it'd be the last they'd see of me, and I'd give them an opinion or 3.  
  Bones said  

 finally walked over to her and said:  "Shut the F*** UP!  This is HIS WEDDING DAY!  IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!!!"  (Yeah, I paid the price, later, for doing that and, at the same time, I didn't see any other option.)
  

Crikey, that sounds like a movie that needs to be made!  I'd love to have been there : )  

[BonesMS]

Thanks, River!

That day was a complete headache for me dealing with BOTH NWomb-Donor and NGCB!  I wasn't permitted to be in any of the wedding photos because I was informed that I was "only the Queen's chauffeur" and not considered a member of the family, (even though I am, unfortunately, blood-related).  Both of them made it quite clear they didn't want to be seen with a "Retard".  (They called me with that label a LOT back then!)  BLEAH!!!!!!   

Bones

[river]

Well, when you are the person who had the gumtion and the courage to say what I suspect was the truest words spoken that day, you contributed a gift.  It may not have been recieved, but they felt the need to character assasinate  you, so thats a kind of information in itself, even tho it still doesnt feel good to be attacked, no matter what. 
Was there actually anyone there who recognised what you did? 

[BonesMS]

Well, when you are the person who had the gumtion and the courage to say what I suspect was the truest words spoken that day, you contributed a gift.  It may not have been recieved, but they felt the need to character assasinate  you, so thats a kind of information in itself, even tho it still doesnt feel good to be attacked, no matter what. 
Was there actually anyone there who recognised what you did? 

Unfortunately, no.  With regards to everyone who attended the wedding that day, I have seen none of them since.  There were no comments to me or anything.  I recall seeing some people blink but...not a word.  It's as if THEY were voiceless!

Bones

[river]

Well they were, and you werent!  
Here, you've got one fan here on cyberspace!!    

Really tho, there are situations like that, I've been in many, Im a lone voice and it has felt very isolating.  And then sometimes, tho not always, I may get some feedback years and years later, and someone tells me that I helped in ways I had no idea of at the time.  I think its about 'we do the right thing' and the results are up to ~~~ (God)~~~ or universe etc.   Im giving you the badge of courage anyway.  

In another way tho, recently I've been playing more beneath the radar in my current training, have had to keep it very diplomatic as I have decided I want to get to the end of the training.  I've noticed that even tho its a 'humanistic' institute, its only humanistic as long as you comply.  But I dont comply in anyway more than I have to.  
How was it for you after that event?   If you had said nothing you do  you think you would have come away feeling ill becuase it would feel like you had participated in the denial?