Author Topic: Do antidepressants work?  (Read 11927 times)

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Do antidepressants work?
« on: July 30, 2011, 02:52:20 PM »
Hi everybody,

Do anti-depressants work?   The debate continues in the Boston Globe:

An op-ed piece by Alex Beam:  “Battling over happy pills”  (7/26/2011)
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/articles/2011/07/26/do_antidepressants_work/

A reply by Peter Kramer (“Listening to Prozac” author):
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2011/07/30/plenty_of_evidence_to_support_pill_use/

And a reply by me:
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2011/07/30/everyone_responds_differently_to_these_powerful_drugs/

All thoughts/comments are welcome!

Richard

BonesMS

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2011, 06:48:20 AM »
Thanks, Dr. G.

My family history is very similar to yours....multiple suicides on NWomb-Donor's side of the family and a WHOLE LOT of dysfunction on my father's side.  Like you, I had lapsed into a dangerously deep depression after experiencing two deaths, within the immediate family, within a four month period.  At the psychiatrist's urging, I did try Prozac.  Its effect did not last long as I quickly developed a tolerance.  (I told the psychiatrist of my history of addiction, which I feel is a factor when I experience drug tolerance.)

For those who may not be familiar with addictions and developing drug tolerance, what happens is that more and more of the substance is needed to achieve the same effect.  Eventually, it reaches a point where the substance no longer has ANY effect at SAFE levels.  Beyond that, the danger of overdose increases while addicts/alcoholics feel compelled to self-medicate and continue to increase their intake of the substance until the brain is damaged, (substance-induced insanity), and/or the body shuts down, (death). 

Unfortunately for me, when I developed a tolerance for Prozac, my depression returned.  What made things worse was that one of the side effects of the Prozac was that my weight blew up and I became dangerously obese.  No matter what I did, my weight continued to increase.  The psychiatrist kept insisting I should eat less and less, (which felt like a set-up for an eating disorder that I did NOT need).  I had numerous arguments with the psychiatrist because he wanted to push benzodiazepines on me and I repeatedly told him that I have a history of ADDICTION to them and do NOT want them back!  It was an insane merry-go-round that helped NOTHING!  I finally stopped the anti-depressants altogether, and fired the psychiatrist because I had HAD ENOUGH!

I still live with depression as I also struggle with PTSD.  (Growing up with a Narcissistic Rage-aholic is equivalent to living in a war zone!)

Bottom line, anti-depressants do not work for me and I'm not certain what an appropriate alternative would be available.  I feel part of my issue is being unable to find an appropriate mental health professional WHO GETS IT about being a Survivor of a Narcissist as well as possibly being on the Autism Spectrum as an Aspie.  (That's a long story in itself.)

I think I'll get off the soap-box for now.

Bones
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sunblue

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2011, 12:02:07 PM »
I am clinically depressed and have taken a variety of anti-depressants in my life.  Have they cured the depression?  No.  Will they?  No.  However, during times when I was very severely depressed, when I was suicidal and unable to function in my life, the meds helped deal with the immediate symptoms (constant crying jags, need to over-sleep, etc.).  I never really felt them "kick in" as I was told they would several weeks after taking them.  Truth be told, I never felt the difference but those around me said during those severe times, the meds helped.  I'm not convinced....but I also think they have a place when the goal is to get the individual in functioning mode so they can address the real causes of the depression.


Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2011, 02:53:08 PM »
Hi Bones and Sunblue,

Thanks for your comments.

As I have posted here over the years, my belief is that depression is a complicated phenomenon—both biologically and also psychologically.  My experience with Celexa—and again, one can only speak for oneself when talking about these drugs--was that it was crude.  It was if all the information in my brain was being channeled through one small serotonergic happy circuit.  To experiment when I was on the drug, I would try to get my brain to “hold onto” negative or painful thoughts.  I couldn’t do it.  So, of course my depression scale numbers dropped to “normal” levels.  As a result, Celexa felt like a vacation drug—a nice, relaxing escape from real life.  Still, it is a comfort to know that I’m always three weeks to the day away from being on vacation should I choose.  No travel or passport required…

Richard


« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 02:54:51 PM by Dr. Richard Grossman »

Hopalong

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2011, 03:22:33 PM »
I think medicating emotional pain as a substitute for healing it, is not good. I am sure they're overprescribed, because they are a symptom reliever, not a cure. And our insane culture IS something to be depressed about.

At the same time, I believe that for severe, life-squashing clinical depression, they are/can be miraculous.

For me, they were an extraordinary help until I received or established enough of the OTHER forms of help I needed in my life, that I became confident enough to stop taking them. And if I need them again, I'll take them gratefully.

I wouldn't want anyone who really needs them to be discouraged from taking them. They've saved lives.

I think what matters, or how to look at it, is to see if you have a T or a doctor who is respectful of your own thinking about medication.

When my T suggested I restart anti-depressants, I told him I would consider it. I got the new Rx, tried a few nights, side effects (not intolerable but real) began...and I paused. I personally really LIKE having to take less Rx (and I am definitely committed to my ADD Rx because of the extraordinary help it's been). Anyway, I thought about it.

REAL BEHAVIORS also change the brain. I know that from years of writing health books. am not doing all these religiously but I know the effects are real. I told him I didn't want to restart until I had given a fair try to these:
--excellent nutrition (I'm doing WAY less junk and have added a "green superfood" power shake 5 days/wk)
--regular exercise (I had just quit, in depression. I'm now walking about 4-5 mornings a week, and need more.)
--discipline about sleep (there's another Rx, but I am taking it earlier in the evening and getting more sleep)
--stopping self-isolation (I am back at church every Sunday and making weeknight friend-dates)

If I get to the max I can with all of these things, and fall again into a crushing depression, I will take anti-depressants again for a period with no hesitation at all.

Hops
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BonesMS

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2011, 11:04:13 AM »
Hi Bones and Sunblue,

Thanks for your comments.

As I have posted here over the years, my belief is that depression is a complicated phenomenon—both biologically and also psychologically.  My experience with Celexa—and again, one can only speak for oneself when talking about these drugs--was that it was crude.  It was if all the information in my brain was being channeled through one small serotonergic happy circuit.  To experiment when I was on the drug, I would try to get my brain to “hold onto” negative or painful thoughts.  I couldn’t do it.  So, of course my depression scale numbers dropped to “normal” levels.  As a result, Celexa felt like a vacation drug—a nice, relaxing escape from real life.  Still, it is a comfort to know that I’m always three weeks to the day away from being on vacation should I choose.  No travel or passport required…

Richard




You're very welcome, Richard.

Bones
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 06:17:26 AM »
I haven't weighed in on this topic, because I've not taken antidepressants (that I am aware of anyway).

But, tt brings up a point that connected with my experience of all drugs -- I too have some weird reactions to certain Rx; and have to start with the lowest dosage possible, or deal with unexpected effects. And I wonder, from the neuroscience perspective, if these drugs to alter brain/body function have these unexpected effects...

because our brains have developed differently, coping with our childhood difficulties?? Like our wires are crossed in areas of the brain... or in synapse connections... so that a drug to enhance positive emotions, say, would do the opposite in us (and perhaps that's why so many of the drugs list worsening depression and suicidal thoughts as a side effect)?

If that theory is true - even if only half the time - then perhaps my fear of these drugs makes sense. Because how would a T - much less the garden variety M.D. - know which patient had which type of brain? Heck, I didn't even know what evil lurked in my childhood brain, until my T helped me feel safe enough to unlock those old memories... and given my issue with self-harm... and the misuse of doctoring by my mom, for emotional pain... well. Even if someone gives me samples, I don't take them.

And perhaps my bigger issue with the current fashion in throwing these drugs at everyone is, why is everyone so sure that "happy" is the more normal state for humans?? How much "happy" is normal? Does that much happy cancel out empathy? Motivation to give to others? If one is totally 100% happy - there's not any inspiration, motivation, or creativity impulses are there? And how much depression warrants the experimentation with these drugs? Shouldn't you have to take a test or be evaluated for a certain level of depression to "qualify"? So that, one doesn't end up medicating a temporary emotional phase... which needs to resolve - in a more healthy fashion - on it's own.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2011, 10:47:26 AM »
Hi Hops,

I agree with your post entirely.  Anti-depressants have helped millions of people, and I’m glad they were invented.  I will always remember one of my dear patients, decades ago, shortly before he died, laughing and telling me:  “you should try one of these things!” (SSRI’s were new at that point).  The drug made a big difference in his last year.  But as you say, for many people there are other ways of changing the brain as well.  I’m glad you found ways that work for you.

Hi tt,

You’re right, IMO.  Everyone has to find what works for them.  And sometimes that means (under Dr. supervision) altering the dose—or if your doctor will prescribe the meds experimenting with reasonable off-label uses.  I’m glad you found what works for you, too!

Hi PR,

Most doctors (more primary care physicians are prescribing anti-depressants these days than psychiatrists) prescribe anti-depressants on a trial basis:  give it a try, and if it works, good—if not, we’ll try something else.  Because we know so little about brain “types” (and we can only speculate about how the drugs work), that’s the best they can do.  Because the side-effect profile is so minor (in most cases), I think the trial and error strategy is appropriate. 

Thanks for re-raising the issue of whether it is “normal” to be happy.  Statistically speaking happy is normal.  But so is positive self-deception (consider, for example, the recent finding that 90% of doctors believe they are in the top 10% of their profession—sorry, I don’t mean to pick on doctors!)  Here’s a controversial extension of the debate:  in yesterday’s Boston Globe there was a review of a book examining the positive effect of “mental illness” on leadership:

http://articles.boston.com/2011-08-03/ae/29847067_1_mental-illness-genius-and-insanity-crisis

The book, A First-Rate Madness:  Uncovering the Links Between Leadership and Mental Illness is by Nassir Ghaemi, and the review by Alice Gregory.  Apparently, the point made by Ghaemi (I haven’t read the book) is that at least for some people (and certainly the opposite has also been true for many or most leaders), the attributes of mental illness allowed people to be better leaders.  Could/would Lincoln have done what he did if he had not been severely depressed—and, thus, been such a “realist”?  How about Churchill?  (And as the author points out, neither would have gotten the chance today to serve if their depression became public.)

But back to the point.  Is happiness “normal”?   Should people be striving for happiness?  Many people can “find” happiness through anti-depressants, but at what cost?  Is the cost worth it (as teartracks asks and answers above)?    For me, personally, these are not simple questions.   For example, whatever value this website/message board may have, it would not exist if I were a person of “normal” happiness.  I’ll stop here.  What do you/everyone think?

Richard

BonesMS

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2011, 11:02:12 AM »
Would, or should, artificial, drug-induced happiness be our goal; especially given that very little is known how the brain is REALLY wired and works?  I sense that "No" would be an answer to that question.  At the same time, when struggling with suicidal depression and PTSD flash-backs from surviving an Nparent's insanity, then what?  Are there any answers at all when anti-depressants don't work and there are no professionals available that understand Survivors of N's issues?

Just thinking.........

Bones
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Lollie

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 03:32:53 PM »
"Happiness is not always the best way to be happy."--Judith, Where the Wild Things Are
"Enjoy every sandwich." -- Warren Zevon

Hopalong

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 03:57:50 PM »
Our culture is so amped-up (I blame media sucking up our lives since TV became ubiquitous, much less all the other devices)...that I think what we now think of happiness is more like mania, sometimes.

I did have a T once tell me that if he could get to a steady state of mild hypomania, he'd be delighted.

Anyway, because I think the culture is sick and our saturated entertainment tells us that happiness is manic, we (the general "we") -- miss out on what I now think it really is, which is peace. Contentment. Ability to be present.

None of those involve shrieking, jumping, errr...boinking, acted elated, high-fiving, singing like the mic is your first bite of food after starvation, doing anything in front of a camera or on FB...

Anyhow. I think happiness has gotten confused with mania.

I now think it's peace.

Which is really nothing more or less than me arguing with myself about language.

(Happily.)

Hops
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BonesMS

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2011, 08:01:50 AM »
Thanks, TT.

I wish there was an answer to my question.

Bones
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SilverLining

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2011, 01:17:22 PM »
I sometimes think my entire life has been a series of experiments with anti-depressants of various sorts.  My trial of prescription chemical AD's lasted 4 years.  At first they seemed a miracle and I was firmly in the Peter Kramer camp.   Then the positive effects started to fizzle out and I went on a four year roller coaster of prescription adjustments.  Every change in the type of medication or dosage seemed to have some positive effect, for a while, but the "poop-out" effect always happened in the end.  And I was left with nothing but a variety of negative side effects, such as weight gain.  While taking AD's, I was gaining weight at the rate of a pound a month.  This abruptly stopped when I stopped taking the pills.  At age 40 I dropped the chemical experiments and started to try some inner work and real lifestyle changes.   

Over the years I have known many people who have taken prescription AD's  It doesn't appear to me that any of them have been helped in the long term by drug therapy alone.  Many have gotten a lot worse, and this includes both of my siblings.  My sister has been struggling to stop taking Cymbalta for years and can't do it.  The two sibs together go through about $30k a year of prescription chemicals.  I have to wonder if a program of cognitive or other "talk" therapy might have been more effective and much less expensive.   

 I believe there are biases in the medical system which prevent recognition of the actual failure rates.  I am still on record as a great Prozac success story, because I quit on my own without consulting my MD.  When one prescription failed, he just prescribed something else, and the general concept of chemical therapy never got called into question.  There are now huge amounts of money at stake, which is great incentive to overlook or downplay the negatives.   Not that the purveyors are completely to blame.  The general belief in the possibility of a no effort "happy pill" drives the whole process. 




Hopalong

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2011, 01:50:03 PM »
Hi TT,
I'm no doctor (just play one in my head) but your symptoms rang a bell.
Do you think you might possibly have something -- even a variant -- on this spectrum?

http://www.sleepassociation.org/index.php?p=aboutnarcolepsy

If it strikes you that way, perhaps you could make an appt. with an expert in this field.

(I've had 2 overnight sleep studies, for different issues--apnea and RLS. They were pleasant experiences.)

xo
Hops
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BonesMS

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Re: Do antidepressants work?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2011, 07:04:22 PM »
Hi TT,
I'm no doctor (just play one in my head) but your symptoms rang a bell.
Do you think you might possibly have something -- even a variant -- on this spectrum?

http://www.sleepassociation.org/index.php?p=aboutnarcolepsy

If it strikes you that way, perhaps you could make an appt. with an expert in this field.

(I've had 2 overnight sleep studies, for different issues--apnea and RLS. They were pleasant experiences.)

xo
Hops

That makes sense, Hops!

I've seen a case of Narcolepsy when I used to work at a residential school.  A student was showing all the symptoms but the people in charge refused to believe that was anything wrong with him and labeled him as lazy.  The school authorities went so far as to publicly humiliate him several times, in front of his classmates, because of his symptoms.  When I commented about the possibility of Narcolepsy, I was curtly informed by my then-boss that I was only a secretary and knew nothing!  (He ignored the fact that he had hired me because I had just recently completed a Bachelor's degree in psychology.)  The school administrators' excuse was to claim that the nearby hospital couldn't find anything wrong with this student.  (I tried to point out that the hospital only had him in their E.R. for only a few hours before releasing him and that testing for Narcolepsy requires an extensive period of time.)  Finally, the poor kid's mother got fed up with the way her son was being treated and transferred him to a school closer to his home AND had her son hospitalized for extensive testing.

Guess what they FINALLY diagnosed him with?  Narcolepsy!!!

I was so pissed off at the school administrators for the way they treated that kid!!  GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Bones
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