Perfection

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

Guest, about the gathering-- I really did mean N.  Perhaps it was a reaction to the overall culture, but it was definitely one that smacked of entitlement and grandiosity/superiority.  The fact that the appointed "greeters" couldn't greet anyone they didn't know (I don't just mean me) was just for appetizers.  It was the "if you were worth knowing, I would know you already" message that came through that made this more than a personality type issue for me, I feel.  

I do appreciate your distinction though.  It does apply to my D's situation.  But I am also referring to the difficult middle school years (for D).  Many people tell me high school is better, so my fingers are crossed.  I've read that book and it was very eye-opening.  I felt less like an oddball knowing there was a whole category just for me.   But when you witness a group of girls running AWAY from your own child when she shows up where she also belongs, I would call that callous.  

Anyway, I think your point (and I agree) is that there is a difference between being narcissistic and having full blown destructive NPD.  Frankly, I think the PD is far more prevalent that psychologists state.  Or maybe it's just the part of the country I'm in. But in the time I've been on the board, we discuss the full spectrum.  I hope that clears up any confusion.

OK, now who asked about NF, NT etc?  I can't scroll down this thread   ...these letters are a sort of short hand for the Myers Briggs personality categories.  There are actually four dichotomies: extravert/introvert, intuition/sensing, thinking/feeling, and perceptive/judging.  I don't think I can do justice to the whole topic here, but you can go to www.keirsey.com or www.personalitypage.com to explore more. I think I am an INFP.  I can be very outgoing when needed, very friendly, but the key is how do you get your energy?  I get mine by withdrawing and being alone, therefore, introverted.

OK, well, gotta do a search on "cognitive distortion".  Wanna learn more about that...  Peace, Seeker

[Discounted Girl]

I compliment you Seeker for not taking the bait. You handled that very well.

[Anonymous]

DG,

That wasn't bait. That was a legit question and I still maintain that using that term too broadly kind of gives it less legitimacy. We do explore the full spectrum here, but calling people Ns instead of saying the atmosphere was narcissistic has a whole different meaning. It may be confusing for people.

[Anonymous]

General comment here. Most of us understand that we do not need to be precise in every word around here to be understood, and most of us have the radar to know a N when we see one.   We know what we feel, and we know what we see, and we do not need to be picked apart needlessly.  We get our share in the real world, thank you.

[Discounted Girl]

Sounded like bait. Yes, I would say generically using any form of the word Narcissism would spread the black ink too broadly and be confusing, much the same as is another challenging, tit-for-tat, nitpicking Guest go round. Put your name on your own words before you criticize another's.

[Anonymous]

Well, I'm not going to reply to the last poster. But let me say this. I am not trying to invalidate anything Seeker went through. They are obviously her perceptions. But by placing blame on all the "Ns" at her daughter's school and at the social function it is causing a lost learning opportunity imo. Instead of calling all of these people Ns, it might be more productive to try to understand why these people are so different than you and learn why people react the way they do. That's why I brought up the personality type thing. It's very germain to the discussion and it could help Seeker's daughter a great deal. I know because I went through this type of thing my whole life. Beleive me, it's not so painful if you understand why others are the way they are. It can also help you learn new and better coping techniques. And again, all these people are not Ns.
It really does dilute the discussion of real N problems by calling a whole group of people Ns because they don't comport with your world perception. That's not an indictement, it's an observation. I have heard people on this board call others Ns when they disagreed with the way they've stated something or had a different opinion or didn't respond as the person thought they should. There are 4 major categories of personality types and four divisions of those four type. That's 16 different types! That means there are not only 16 different general personality types but other variations depending on upbringing. I'm saying that perhaps we could be more tolerant and seek to understand better rather than being reactive. People in the world at large are mostly SJs and SPs, so if you are an NF or NT, your way of life and thoughts are somewhat at odds with the majority. The majority isn't bad, but different (and I admit that sometimes I don't always find them appealing). But there are things in us that aren't appealing to them either. This isn't a bad thing to learn. And I don't geta profit from recommending Keirsey's book, but it's a lot better and more informative than the web site.

[OnlyMe]

Running the risk of setting myself up, I just want to say that many of us have spent our entire lives attempting to placate the entire world as we knew it, and some of us now must do what we can to become strong ourselves.  We have perceptions based on our experiences, and if we inadvertantly lump a group of people together, then so be it.  Hopefully we can be understanding of one another, and realize that we are each on a journey towards strength and health, and we need and deserve support.  It is our turn to  grow.  We  do not need to be criticized unnecessarily for semantics or psych terminology.  Pardon me if this sounds abrupt, but sometimes it is very tiring to try to be perfect all the time.  Just my opinion ....

[les]

I agree Only Me. Well said. Maybe we can all cut each other a little slack here
and not get too hung up in Word Perfect precision. The first post I made on the board was so tightly edited it took me hours to write. I was so afraid. I know I need to relax a bit if I'm going to speak or write.  I can see that guest was trying to be helpful and share her considerable knowledge. Speaking ONLY for myself I always suspect snipers at the end of every sentence as it is! I have a little sniper set of my own that ride around on my shoulders willing to commence firing if no one else shows up to shoot me down! (just got carried away there -not suggesting that guest had these intentions at all, only that I am my own personal firing range, providing ammunition and target)

Les

[seeker]

OK, hold it everybody.

First: Let me say I'm a little disappointed.  I rarely vent and this time when I did, I got called on it.  Phooey.  Again a big thank you to all that supported my right to air my feelings for once.  I don't think I was "blaming" anyone, but there I go, explaining....

Second: Let me further explain myself in that I have attended many similar social functions such as this one, and this was the FIRST in which I felt I had entered a full-on SHARK TANK.  If I told you it was a bunch of Hollywood actors and actresses and producers, would that convince you of the Nness of this particular and specific crowd?  They weren't, but I am not going to reveal more particulars to validate my perception.  And frankly, deny as you may, you have called into question my perceptions.  

Third, Guest, you asked for more particulars, actively sought evidence of my MISperceptions.  I cooperated and then you criticized the result.  You did apologize, and my last response allowed you the benefit of the doubt.  If you think I am losing a learning experience, sorry.  I posted to vent and I posted to learn--therefore exposing QED my ignorance and need for edifying.  All the previous responses have been very helpful.  

And yes, the book is better than the website.  To quote Chinatown, "You're right.  And when you're right, you're right."  I was trying to be expedient for those who didn't have any information at all.  For crying out loud, if you want me to say it I will.  You are much more perceptive than me.  But I'm still entitled to my feelings.

I have to ask, what button of yours is getting pushed by my post?  Are you a member of a charity organization and feel that your motivations and membership are being questioned by my opinions about my own singular experience?  (I want to emphasize that I am not generalizing about all groups, just this one.)  

I wasn't posting to rattle anyone's cage, but apparently cages are rattling now.

Over and out, Seeker

[Anonymous]

My cage isn't rattled. And I'm not angry or defensive or anything at all. Thank you Les for seeing that I was TRYING to be helpful. No, I'm not involved in a charity organization and I don't see what I said as even being critical. I guess people see things differently and that is exactly my point. If you want to vent, Seeker, that is fine. But I distinguished a different point of view and I kept on my subject. I didn't denigrate anyone or say they had to word everything perfectly. Perfect wording was so not the point.

I do want to make sure people can say things here without the echo chamber effect. Everyone communicates differently and what is said could be given due course in stead of dismissed as trying to start a fight (which I wasn't).

[Anonymous]

Guest,

You're missing my point.  

You bring up personality types and differences in communication.  That was informative.  But I stand by what I said.  This wasn't about personality types.  It was about the whole dynamic of narcissism.  And I will use the term as I see fit.  

But by placing blame on all the "Ns" at her daughter's school and at the social function it is causing a lost learning opportunity imo.

It really does dilute the discussion of real N problems by calling a whole group of people Ns because they don't comport with your world perception. That's not an indictement, it's an observation.

You are saying this is not a real N problem.  And that is your opinion and you are entitled to it of course.  Sometimes it isn't what we say, but how we say it.  Even if we are well intended.  

It's interesting that others were able to respond with caring and compassion and your posts, though informative, were to dissect and analyze.  I just wanted to be heard.  I still don't feel heard by you.  
I have not judged an entire personality type.  And it is your perception that I have.  

I guess we will just disagree.  Do me a favor.  If I choose to vent again in the year 2006, you can skip the thread.  I don't need people to tell me that by getting angry I'm missing important lessons.  I have my father to tell me that.  And by your definition, that's a "real" N problem.

Seeker

[Anonymous]

And I'm not angry or defensive or anything at all.

No, but I am.  

Thank you for pointing out and staying on topic about how I am misusing the word narcissism and how my post would really dilute discussion.  

Let me make this perfectly clear.  I am PISSED!

Now tell me why I shouldn't feel this way.  Tell me how you didn't MEAN to make me feel this way.  Tell me how I'm not seeing it correctly.  Or that the fact that our world views don't match, then perhaps I have more to learn (obviously).  Tell me everything.  Explain.  But DON'T apologize.  Because you are right.  And when people are right, they have nothing to apologize for.  

Feel better?  Feeling fine?  Oh goody.  You are the equivalent of the person who, when someone is crying and others are listening, come over to say "well, you should haven't done that.  You should have done this.  What did I say?  I'm just trying to be helpful."  I just want people to listen for once.  But it is obviously more important to you to jump in and feel knowledgable.  

I know the script by heart.  I grew up listening to it.  Thanks.

Seeker

[flowers12]

Seeker,

I've only been on this site for a couple of days now.  I'm not sure that I will keep up with this.  What I was hoping to find here was kind, caring, and compasionate support and advice.  A lot of time that is what happens, but I've read lots of the past postings and this kind of thing seems to happen frequently around here.  I'm very thin skinned - which my Nmom loves to point out to me.  After 26 years of being attacked it is hard for me, and I'm sure some of you, to not take things personally.  After being critisized for all of my life, about 2 years ago, I finally got to a point where I just wasn't going to take it anymore.  Well, for the most part.  It seems like I will never be strong enough to break away from my Nmom and her belittling ways.  My point is - you have the right to rant and rave.  We all have plenty of people in our lives to correct our behavior, but what we sometimes need is just to be heard.

[Anonymous]

But by placing blame on all the "Ns" at her daughter's school and at the social function it is causing a lost learning opportunity imo.

I didn't read it as placing blame on the people at the social function. I saw it as someone traumatized by an experience due to naivete, yearnings for acceptance from unavailable people, disillusionment, etc.

Instead of calling all of these people Ns, it might be more productive to try to understand why these people are so different than you and learn why people react the way they do. That's why I brought up the personality type thing. It's very germain to the discussion and it could help Seeker's daughter a great deal.

I think she was trying to understand why the experience was traumatic and why the people were acting that way (i.e., hoping for a reality check).
I am not helped by personality types and I use different criteria to look at people's behavior. I agree that understanding human behavior (however you do it) is very useful and pragmatic.

bunny

[phoenix]

Guest- Is this the very first post you ever visited here, and haven’t noticed that in prior posts  there is  common understanding on this board in  distinguishing between narcistic attitudes, expressions, etc., and true NPD itself?

Do I have to explain every time I post about my dad that No he has not actually been diagnosed as NPD- that I can rely on others here to understand I am having trouble with him to some degree of Nism- whether full blown or just aggravating quirks of personality?

Seeker- We all got it, you know that we do, please don’t change a thing about yourself , your posts; you are wonderful. (((hugs)))Phoenix