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Mothering Again, con't.

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Twoapenny:
Hi Hops,

Well firstly I'm glad your D's step-mum has made this contact and told you that she is in your corner - I know having someone else say they think the same as you is huge in situations like this so I'm really glad she's done that.

Personally, I don't think someone who is 'NC' should be receiving cash or cash substitutes from the person they no longer wish to have contact with.  Even without being NC, I don't think parents should support their adult children; there's something about it that I feel stops the person receiving the money from being a proper grown-up.  To me, being an adult is about managing your finances yourself, and not expecting other people to pay for things for you.  A bit old fashioned, I know, but my feeling is, if you can't pay then you do without.

Your D sounds like she is getting an awful lot of help from a lot of people - living rent free, eating someone else's food, having someone else pay her phone bill, someone paying half the rental on the storage unit.  That's a lot of other people's money she's raking in.  I cannot begin to imagine how much the situation you are in with her must hurt you and I can completely understand your worries about her health and how tough it would be for you to cut off that one last line of communication.  I guess it would signify that you are accepting she is no longer in your life and I can't imagine how terribly sad and painful that would be.

But.............it really pains me to read about her punishing you in this way, over and over again.  I know we don't know each other in 'real' life but honestly, you are such an open, honest and giving person that you don't deserve to be treated this way.  I know your D is unwell and I'm sure it does play a part in the way she behaves.  But equally I think in situations like this people do tend to do as much as they can get away with.  Your D sounds as if she has other people paying for everything she needs and she doesn't have to do anything in return - it's not even conditional on working, or getting regular medical care, or even being polite.  I think most of the people on this forum have experienced mental health problems of some form or another, and they're no excuse for rudeness.  If someone gives you something you either say thank you or decline the offer, in my opinion.

So - easy for me to say, I know - I would stop paying for the phone.  Perhaps you could donate some of the money to a mental health charity instead, so that you'd still be helping 'someone', it would just be someone who appreciates it.  I can't tell you how sorry I am that you are in this situation again, the pain must be unbearable and these contacts must be like ripping the wound open all over again.  But, ill or not, I think your D needs to enter the real world now and start paying for things herself, or doing without them.  And I think you deserve to be giving your money to someone who appreciates it - whether that's topping up your retirement fund, giving some to charity or even buying that pooch of yours a great big bone and a fancy dog collar - you work hard for it and you work so hard on yourself, you deserve to know that your kind actions are being appreciated and enjoyed.

Love Tupp xxx

lighter:
Hi (((Hops)))

First, I'm so sorry this hurts so much.

It frightens me for you, and your D......

there are no good decisions, I'm afraid.  Only less terrible ones, but on the bright side, any new decisions you make could lead to something positive for your d, as well as negative.

The pro's of getting rid of the phone are.....
1.  You'd be respecting, completely, your d's very clear stated boundary.  All the sudden, POOF!...... for the first time, she'd get exactly what she asked from you.  Maybe she'd think to herself..... "Wow, that wasn't exactly what I expected to happen.  I guess maybe I pushed it a bit too far, and maybe I want my phone back on so I'll call her, and see if she'll do that for me."
2.  She might not have any other way to get on the internet, and she may decide that being poor AND cut off from her data services sucks so bad..... she asks you for help again, which of course you'd have the choice to engage in, and surround with boundaries of your own.  She might get so ticked off, that anger moves her into positive action, and she ends up improving her situation, which isn't all bad either.
3.  She might end up on her roomie's phone all the time, make more trouble for herself, and get evicted, leading to her breaking down, admitting she needs help, and asking someone for it, even if it's not you.
4.  She might use her roomies's phone, and complain about you so much her roomie sits her down, explains that it's not working, and that she's bitten the hand that feeds her, yours, and that she's overstepping his boundaries, and she'll have to go, or find solutions.  Solutions require getting a phone elsewhere, or money to provide one for herself.  He isn't her mother, and he's not obligated to provide food, housing AND data services for her when it impacts his life negatively, esp if she's her character flaws make it hard for her to show gratitude, and be humble under his roof.  At some point, cold hard reality might be necessary for d to see she can't get herself out of this uncomfortable place without help from someone, or some agency.  Maybe that's what it will take to get her to admit she can't go on this way.

The unintended consequences, or negative consequences might be that d spirals completely out of control, and harms herself, or ends up in a situation where she's harmed.
That's the big concern, isn't it?  That's the unbearable unintended consequence, and since she's ill it's just too hard to qualify the true weight of that decision without input from someone in contact with her IRL.  I wonder if sm speaks to the roomate?  What does the roomate feel would help? 

If the phone really is a life line, and something that keeps her in touch with the world, and functioning, and applying for jobs, then it would feel too terrible to take it away, even if it's just respecting the boundary she herself put in place, right?  I wish you could call her on the phone, and say

Hey, as painful as it is, I finally accept your NC boundary, and I'm going to honor it, starting at the end of next month with the phone service, unless sooner would be better.  If you want me to shut it down today, or next week I can do that too, you just need to let me know, and I'll honor it.  With that, I accept that any contact will start with you, not me, in the future.  I love you,  Goodbye.  ::click::

What happens if she has a completely break down?  What are the services in her area?  She'd likely end up in the emergency room, under observation, on an involuntary status.  The roomate might be the one to make that call.  In our State, attorneys volunteer to represent those folks, and help determine what the next move is when their hearing comes up in 10 or so days to determine whether they're released or stay longer.  Maybe 14 days, not sure, but there are caring professionals at the next stage working with them to get them services, housing, and care...... crisis management services in other words.  Not sure about Florida, but it would comfort me to know what the likely outcome of a breakdown would be, and to feel it might be the best chance for someone I love for growth, medical care, and services that would impact her life positively.


You know there's always another hand with me, so......

here d is, working toward gaining employment.  Would taking the phone derail that completely?  IS she working towards improving her life?  Is she just getting worse, with no real hope for getting better?  I'd be more likely to cut off the phone if I thought it would lead to things getting better, eventually, even if they get worse first. 

Either way, cutting off the phone would change something, and with addicts letting them hit rock bottom is often the kindest things we can do for them, bc that's when they can't deny or minimize any longer.  That's when they have to make the hard decisions, right?

I know your d isn't an addict, but she's in denial, and struggling with disordered thinking, and what does sound like ODD, and ADHD, on top of the bi polar.  Wow, that is scary to read, Hops.

Just doing nothing, and keeping the status quo seems to be the less threatening way to go, IMO.

But, if I'm looking down on the situation as if it's my own, and thinking about getting someone to the next difficult phase, that requires SOME CATALYST, unfortunately a negative one to get someone's attention, or some agency's attention, then I'm going to really consider withdrawing any enabling behaviors, out of love.    This is what your friend is telling you, and I completely GET that, but.....

Since your child is ill, it's not so easy a call. 

That brings me to staying in touch with the sm, as suggested in earlier posts. 

My first thought was to send her the 80.00 a month, and tell her she's welcome to get another phone service set up, if she thinks it's the best idea, and would lead to a job, and maybe getting job training, but if there isn't going to be a better job, or training... maybe not. 

And IS keeping the phone service another thing you do that ticks your d off? She asked you to STOP, and yet there you are, providing that darned phone, and she's too weak to cut it off herself, and so she's conflicted, and angry and it doesn't help anything if she's getting worse, not better, through the unwanted, and unasked for gesture, right? 

Secretly, I believe the best possible outcome would be if your dd realizes she's miserable, broke, hungry, and SO uncomfortable, she HAS to make a change, and goes about doing that in what will likely be messy, scary, uneven, two steps forward, a stagger back, but maybe that's the best chance she has at seeing what adult responsiblity really and truly is.  How out of her depths she is, and how much help she needs to truly get on track, and in a place of comfort, and independence.  She seems to want to be those things, but she hasn't actually taken stock of the actual moving parts involved.....

adequate health care;

training for employment;

taking responsibility, and resisting blaming others;

receiving continued health care that makes it possible to get, and keep a job.

She says she wants those things, but she;s not really doing what she needs to do in order to achieve those things. 

You want them for her desperately.

She seems to be spending a lot of time on line, distracting herself, keeping herself from focusing on the hard decisions, IMO.  IS the phone service you provide her link to the internet?  Does she have a computer, in her basement, on wifi?  What would the impact of losing her phone service truly be? 

She said to stop contacting her, but she didn't say she wanted you to cut off the phone service if I remember correctly.  It just slips by, without comment.  IMO, her latest request includes cutting off the phone, and that's just respecting a boundary she put in place, but since she's harmed you, and continues to harm you, I don't know if a small part of that is me wanting her to feel a little discomfort.... a little unintended consequence of her actions, kwim?  She may not have intended for you to treat her like an adult, after this last contact, but that's exactly what she asked you to do.  Respect her by completely withdrawing all contact, help, and expectation.  Well, would it help for her to live with the consequences of her request?  Completely?  For once?

You don't want to cut off that phone, in case it's the final straw that breaks her sanity, but I think it's not likely that her sanity hinges on that one one thing.  It's a combination of things, and IMO she;s as likely to find positive change as she is negative if you cancel phone service. 


If I thought it was the one thing keeping her alive, I'd certainly not cancel it, Hops.  No one can know.  You can ask the roomate, perhaps, and the sm, but you can't actually know, and that makes a decision difficult.

I wonder if you could filter services, and help through the sm in any way?

If you could make a request..... help d, in any way you think best, here's X amount of dollars, don't tell me about your plans, but use it if you think it will get her help/training/mental health care/dental work, etc,. and move her into a better space if it's possible.

That's a lot of rambling, but I hope it helps, (((((Hops))))).

Lighter

Hopalong:
Thank you so so very much, GS, Tupp, Ann, and Lighter.
Boy, do I feel HEARD.
It just helps so much the way you really do see all the sides. In different ways, but so acutely well.

It's like I've been wandering around holding a pretzel, and asking people to help me figure out which is the top side.

There IS no top side; it's a pretzel.

Whew.

As to all those pragmatic questions, Lighter...I can't manage anything through the stepmom (they are not in contact often enough and the stepmom isn't managing her either...and will not try advising or suggesting things, as she gets her head bitten off when she does). I've never met nor been introduced to the housemate (don't know whether stepmom ever has met him either). Don't think the stepmom talks to him about her. I can't (and wouldn't) have concrete chats about plans/ideas/moves for my D with either of them. I'm really not going to try to fix (or ruin) her life situation.  I am completely NOT in charge, even remotely. And much as I wish there were a proxy there who could parent her (she lives in NC, though her storage is in FL), there isn't.

I am very VERY grateful for all of these thoughts. They help. Because you've all added a bounty-load of points both Pro and Con. I will write them up before my T appointment, and ask him to help me process the list, to see if I get tipped in one direction.

I hope so. I'd like it to go away (not the payment, but the hurt I feel about it--and the fear it's damaging her if I keep paying it or if I stop).

love
Hops

lighter:
Hops:

What I know about involuntary observation, from a NC attorney, and crisis intervention worker in NC, is very positive.  At least in the area I'm familiar with.

Lighter

Hopalong:
I've been in (grateful) tears about this entire thread this morning for a bit.
If y'all had ANY IDEA how life-and-sanity-saving your help was, especially in that pivotal disastrous year of 2014....this thread has got it all.

This was triggered by an unexpected email from D's (2nd) stepmom today, explaining that D's *half-brother had visited D. She's about the same but back living in the basement of the 400-pound computer-geek friend with whom she'd lived for some time until he got pissed about her eating his food and tossed her out. I have no idea about anything since so do not know where/how she's lived in the interim. This update suggests D's desperation but that's been chronic. As ever, I have ZERO way of answering new questions about her situation and am not going to try to find out. I explained to kind SM that I don't want to be given the address indirectly because any contact between D and me has to be initiated by D, but I'm very glad someone knows it.

(*Half-brother's mother, D's father's wife after me, died in hospice near D when she was in Miami--and this half-brother is close to D's father's widow, the 3rd-wife and stepmom I'm referring to now who had no kids--v. convuluted I know! She adored him and they remained close after his mother's death. D adored him too; he's a lot like his dad.)

Anyway, it wasn't new-news except to learn that he visited her, for which I'm very grateful. What that means is if I'm terminally ill (or suddenly gone) one day, there's some contact who could contact her. She'd need to know eventually.

Her Addison's disease is worse and she's down to one half of one adrenal gland, and dependent for life on steroids, which have caused her to gain 70 pounds. I can imagine how miserable she is. No knowledge of the current state of her bipolar, employment, health insurance, any government benefits other than food stamps, other health, etc. But I know to be back in his basement wouldn't be a step forward or up for her. I can imagine her despair and self loathing. It does make me v. sad.

So that triggered me to review all this (again). I'm okay. It still is what it still is. I even found I'd written in this thread the exact wording of her final message to me in February of 2012. That's when I accepted her final NC boundary.

Whew, whew. Still glad stepmom sent me the update. It was caring.

As to YOUR caring, alla y'all? Indescribable. I am still so profoundly grateful.

hugs
Hops

PS One thing I noticed in this thread, or maybe it was another one, is that folks thought for a while that her bipolar was self-diagnosed. It wasn't. She was seeing a psychologist and a psychiatrist at 19 and one (or both) of them diagnosed her. It has always been real. I just didn't learn about it until she told me (and I witnessed it) much later.

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