Author Topic: Therapists  (Read 9646 times)

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Therapists
« on: December 26, 2011, 11:34:54 PM »
Not sure yet if this should be a topic or if I should just write to myself. I'm feeling too fatigued to keep up a one sided deep conversation though (like I sometimes do). I feel like this could be one of my locked ramble posts but like I said I only have so many words right now. I'm on therapist # nine. Reminds me of the song: "Love potion number nine" maybe because if I had experienced enough love maybe I wouldn't need a therapist. Who knows really.

I don't have a point mainly just to express frustration with how much difficulty I find in getting help to make things different.
Or maybe better.

I just want to talk to a friend not a therapist. I don't like the way she documents every thing I say in such a clinical way that my sensitive guts are spilled out and recorded for any intern or somebody that I don't know to see. I feel exposed and I feel resistant to sharing with a therapist because they haven't proven themselves as a friend so why would I want to share?

I guess I'm struggling within myself not sure if I want to go back to the therapist again. My second appointment is coming up.

Bouncing box here. SAVe
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 11:43:29 PM by Boat that Rocks »

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Therapists
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2011, 11:40:40 PM »
Guess I just want to say to the therapist "It's been a long time since I have felt loved, I just want to feel loved"

I could say that to a friend.

But this dumb therapist wants to do all of that cognitive crap with me about "re framing my thoughts" or whatever.
Maybe I should just get a referral or give up I don't know.

I'm finding that other people seem to have less self awareness than I do....because they were never so F'ed up that they looked at their lives and selves and even their inner child and inner demons very much....ALSO they, YES THEY, THEM, the OKAY people don't seem to need this damned cognitive therapy feedback crap.....I thought cog. ther. feed...was old and didn't really work. I've read whole books and done stupid work books IT DOES NOT WORK!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not looking for advice really just expressing a frustration with how I have tried to get help but I don't even know what I'm looking for anymore, I do know that I don't have a lot of faith in this cognitive self-talk because positive self talk only gos so far.
Hey look a single pea!!! Wow that is better than a whole Turkey!!! As long as I think it then it's true??

The world is not all in my mind, I could be here and the world could be here even if I was in a coma.
I'm not really looking for advice I'm just feeling sad and hopeless tonight and therapists have been a dissapointment to me personally.
The therapists and people who meet me say that they get the impression that I'm motivated. Of course I am. But nothing is working!!!!!!

I don't even know what sort of therapy I should ask for. Not cognitive feedback therapy I guess. Does anybody do anything else besides Cognitive feedback stuff?

I think the dumb therapist is unrealistic and doesn't get me. She suggested that I go back to school at the nearest university. I feel like that is beyond me. Pretty much the social worker deterred be from such an idea. I don't really know what is possible but I know what seems unlikely. I'm confused and tired and lonely. I just needed to say that. Sometimes I just need a place to say how I'm really feeling, I don't need a lot of sympathy and stuff I just need to be real somewhere even if it is on a blog in interspaceland. It's part of me trying to have that voice.

I feel like I don't know who I am or who I want to be. Sort of feel like this life and this world is having it's way with me, like I don't even get to define myself. I didn't feel this way a couple of years ago. I hope its just a phase.
I don't know what saxophone players are saying but I'm sure they are speaking to my heart because music is the only thing that makes any sense to me and it doesn't have any sense. There is a limit to what words and thoughts can do.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 12:01:23 AM by Boat that Rocks »

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Therapists
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2011, 12:06:57 AM »
You guys can write whatever the heck you wanna write or if you don't feel like it not. Just don't want to talk myself through this right now like I usually do. Don't want to figure anything out, I just want the other nice voice on the other side.

there is like some kind of rule that we cant fall in love or can't need love when we are too needy

on some level it makes sense in a controlled logical kind of world----but on a heart level it is like the dumbest thing ever

BonesMS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8060
Re: Therapists
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2011, 07:41:03 AM »
Morning, Boat.

I've been on both sides of this coin so I can feel your pain.  At one of my former jobs, I was expected to provide cognitive behavioral therapy, WITHOUT ANY FORMAL TRAINING IN THE TECHNIQUE, to ALL clients!  I vehemently disagreed with the "one size fits all" approach as each client is a unique individual...not a textbook case.  I HATED it when previous therapists tried the "one size fits all" approach on me so I strongly felt it was NOT the appropriate thing to do to others.  I'm aware there are several therapeutic approaches available to professionals.  Unfortunately, not all professionals get it that Survivors of N's should NOT be forced into a "relationship" with the N who victimized them.  I lost count of how many "professionals" quoted the same old tired line of:  "But, she's your mother!  She loves you!"  (And this was before I finally understood Narcissistic Personality Disorder.)

I guess I can say, based on my own experience, that attempting to force a client to fit a certain "pigeon-hole" does NOT work!  Reminds me of an old saying I heard somewhere, which I will paraphrase here as I'm not sure if I remember exactly...(it's still early and I'm half-asleep)....."Trying to teach a pig how to do something it's not designed to do doesn't work.  It's an exercise in futility and it annoys the pig."

I want to make it clear.....we are NOT the same as pigs in the literal sense of the word but ignorant professionals are annoying.  (As I wake up more, I may find a better concept and analogy to use later.)

Bones
Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13603
Re: Therapists
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2011, 07:55:04 AM »
A good therapist, I believe, could sit quietly and allow you to read aloud these three posts...one who could search to understand what works for you...I mean, that's really information that might help them.

For me it's not so much whether cognitive behavioral therapy works for me (I dunno, sometimes I don't even ask what "style" a T is into, because what matters most to me is their intelligence, compassion, depth of listening, and whether I sense they have a "spark" for witnessing/encouraging growth. I know for some other things, a type called dialectical behavioral therapy is good. Gestalt is the one where you talk to the chairs.

For me, hypnosis was the most life-changing and extraordinary, in terms of ME constructing where I wanted to go.

I wanted to tell you, Bones, that I think Therapist #9 would be an under-count for me. I have been to at least a dozen, likely. A few years ago I came to accept that, to stop judging/shaming myself for the fact that I am a person that will probably all of my life need to go through a cyclical relationship with a kind, wise, etc., T who will listen to me and help me learn to comfort and encourage myself. I'm not in a village, there's no shaman handy, and it's just a role in this culture that wears that hat. I give. Then, if I accept it as something I need and deserve and that there's zero shame about needing...it helps.

It's just the nature of who I am. Missing some filters, having certain mental quirks (like marked ADD) that make contemporary Western life a little challenging at times. And I need a level of interpersonal support that my current life does not include. If I stop judging myself, and think of a T just as I would a doctor -- no miracles but appropriate help -- then it's okay.

I understand this feeling:
Quote
I don't like the way she documents every thing I say in such a clinical way that my sensitive guts are spilled out and recorded for any intern or somebody that I don't know to see. I feel exposed and I feel resistant to sharing with a therapist because they haven't proven themselves as a friend
I feel that discomfort too. I sometimes challenge my T -- don't write that down -- or ask, what are you writing down? He doesn't write much though.

And he's always ready to laugh. He has a lightness of being that helps me find my own. Once I was crying gently and he said, well, I guess you've got a crappy job with a creepy boss and a daughter who hates you...and I said, "Think I have something to cry about?" and we both started laughing simultaneously...it was just acknowledging together the absurdity of being human, a pathos thing.

Anyway, dear ole Boat, I know you didn't ask for advice. Just wanted to ramble back at you that I understand a lot of the fears and frustration you're feeling on seeing a new T. When we need SO MUCH, it feels like SO MUCH rides on the T being a sort of Super-T, and then you get just another one with the same ole toolkit.

But different carpenters, same tools, can really help you build things...takes a little time.

One thought, if it's handy...is that every single time you go for therapy, no matter who "the T" is...you're actually the therapist.
xo
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5419
Re: Therapists
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2011, 09:50:07 AM »
'morning...

I'm not a night-owl, Boat... or I'd have been glad to chat with you last night. I've actually been feeling pretty needy myself, lately. But not as able to come right out & say it, like you do.

Hops makes a good point about how different carpenters use tools. And that really, you are your own therapist. LOL, I felt like I was paying my T to pretend to be my friend... to listen to me talk, to ask questions... but she never ever promised to do more than "help" me; "fixing" me just wasn't part of the deal. She also kept asking (in the beginning) about what I wanted - and ya know, I still don't walk around with any sense of an "I want..." list in my head! Me, want? What a foreign concept!! Now, need - that's a whole 'nother thing.

Except for the first couple sessions, she never took notes. She always wrote after the session. Of course, I showed up the first appt, with the introduction to Twiggy's story all written out for her; typed. Up to where my memory shut off. Occasionally, I did read her bits of my journal - as I came to realizations or had amazingly "telling" dreams... because I write more clearly than I speak. Verbally, I'm a babbling idiot. I'm better than I used to be - but when talking about personal things or things with a strong emotion connected to them - well, you know how cryptic I can be sometimes? Like I'm talking in code? Yeah. It takes someone like a T, to be able to understand what I'm trying to say - as I'm choking on the exact words.

But here's the deal - it wasn't any particular technique that helped me. It was simply the routine of showing up, talking, letting her suggest things and discussing them. It was feeling like I was connected to this other person and we were working together on a goal, that was the important part of the process. Yes, scientifically speaking CBT teaches us how to "think" differently. But again - that distracts from the important part of the process - which is, that over time one starts to FEEL differently. And after a couple years of this, "therapy" began to be a DIY project... except - and this was a huge exception for me - I needed the support I've received over the years, here on the board. It's like a was a wobbly kitten - I was up on my legs but had no idea how they worked. I needed tons of encouragement to counteract my learned patterns of putting myself down; feeling hopeless and helpless - even like I was a fake. (and gee... I'm still here - what does that tell ya?)

In some ways - therapy wasn't that much different than learning tai chi. There was a lot to keep my "monkey mind" busy - while the important stuff was happening at a completely different level. I needed my teacher's input; I needed and enjoyed the connection with my class mates. It was the practice, day in and day out, that was the important "work", too.

I wouldn't get too hung up on type of therapy; and if your T is doing something that bothers you - let him/her know, OK? I had to do a whole lot of different kind of healing, before CBT even worked for me... I just wasn't that integrated - me & my unconscious feral cat self - initially, for it to work. It even backfired a lot of the time - so we did different things. But every tiny little step added up to a whole journey.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Hypnosis
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2011, 01:36:13 PM »
Having a cup of coffee, reading bits and chunks, have country music on radio going it's Keith Urban "Someday Baby" oh and Jason Aldean. Just noticed that some new person moved around all the stuff in the fridge and squished all my space out but what's new--Feh.

Thinking about the hypnosis Hops. I never knew that you had that done. Couple of evenings ago I listened to a radio broadcast about hypnosis, I guess I don't really understand it and is scares me a little bit like surgery scares people.

I hate love songs, isn't this some kind of torture and brainwashing for those of us who are the "others".

Today I'm inbetween considering a late night knitting project or doing something wreckless. I wanna run away. There is really nothing to run away from besides social workers and therapists that say the same ol same ol...and no where to run to just an unfamiliar landscape that I can momentarily be sentimental and excited about. I ask myself again "Who the h@ll am I?"
Maybe I should take that question to the therapist.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 01:49:09 PM by Boat that Rocks »

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Therapy I don't get it
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2011, 02:14:31 PM »
Okay, what is the point of therapy. If we have a problem or are struggling we are told to "go see a therapist". But the point of therapy is not to fix us or the problem?

Supposed to be some kind of self awareness so we can make different decisions or some junkola like that in response to our problems.

No amount of therapy is going to make me more "lovable". I will just be better able to spout out some kind of psycho babble.

Therapist number nine pointed out that I said that I had a hard time in the past articulating myself and that she thought I was doing a pretty good job at articulating now (I think she is trying to point out that previous therapy WAS beneficial to me). But that isn't due to the previous 8 therapists it's due to my past work where I worked with people who had PhD's, its due to a communication class I took and it's also due to my rambling on this board..because eventually I figure out something about myself.

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
"Conversation"
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2011, 02:18:11 PM »
Heya Bones and Hops and Phoenix, Thanks for the conversation. I read what you wrote, takes me a long time to digest it all.

It felt affirming to know that others out there have frustrations and uncertainty with the therapeutic process also. And also knowing that we go into therapists very raw and sensitive- Phoenix.

Bones, Thank you for pointing out the--one size does not fit all----piece. One size fits all approaches almost demonstrates a lack of thoughtfulness in some ways.

Also Hops the way you point out the expectations for a SUPER Therapist to the rescue....its so true.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 02:23:08 PM by Boat that Rocks »

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
All about me
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2011, 03:00:36 PM »
When I respond to myself 4 times I guess it's "all about me in my world" self absorbed. But I need to say something else and I can't make my boxes bigger, one big box is not working because of the jumping screen thing.

I'm supposed to string together bad low paying temporary jobs in lieu of a career. I'm also supposed to live in a low-income housing project with weirdo men in lieu of some place I actually want to be. I'm just supposed to adapt. This is part of the reason why I don't feel like I know who I am anymore. People are telling me to just do and just be what I don't want to be...a welfare loser.

There was more than one thing going on when I lost my stable good paying job and ended up here and one of the things was a frustration with my own loneliness and autonomy and pointlessness of not being a point in a constellation. Even if I have a career which is nice doesn't mean that I feel like I belong to somebody and somewhere. I don't feel like I belong in church when I go (And I have been going) or when I volunteer I don't completely feel like that is my place. Where and when am I going to belong I ask myself. In the past I never allowed myself to even say these feelings. They were too personal, being to prideful to just say this stuff. I think I need to admit it to myself though, not admitting it to myself if part of the barrier to having it probably. I want to be excited about something in the future. Something to look forward to, I don't SEE that and it's true I'm not motivated. Those A-hole social workers say I'm supposed to act like I'm motivated still. I was but I'm not anymore. I'm pissed and tired of the conversation with the housing person I don't know what to say to her anymore. I don't like her. Sometimes she puts out this energy like I'm a bad child. I will just take a high road, just tell her that I'm talking to a therapist about all of it. ---pshhh aww

These stupid social workers and therapists, I just need to get out of this trap. Its all intrusive, people who cant help and dont care as long as they get their paycheck, but im supposed to play along and report to them like a little kid telling their teacher "yes mam I did my homework"...just like  you told me to.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 03:29:02 PM by Boat that Rocks »

BonesMS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8060
Re: "Conversation"
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2011, 06:21:35 AM »
Heya Bones and Hops and Phoenix, Thanks for the conversation. I read what you wrote, takes me a long time to digest it all.

It felt affirming to know that others out there have frustrations and uncertainty with the therapeutic process also. And also knowing that we go into therapists very raw and sensitive- Phoenix.

Bones, Thank you for pointing out the--one size does not fit all----piece. One size fits all approaches almost demonstrates a lack of thoughtfulness in some ways.

Also Hops the way you point out the expectations for a SUPER Therapist to the rescue....its so true.

You're welcome, Boat.  I think that is what is frustrating....getting the sense that the therapist is not being thoughtful.  It feels as if they are not really listening.

Bones
Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5419
Re: Therapists
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2011, 07:00:58 AM »
Hi Boat - having one of those nights when I don't sleep well. My 4-legged kat - my Target parking lot feral rescue kitty - is running laps; dogs' been up & out; hubs is trying to put himself back to sleep... I've already made the 2nd pot of coffee. No... anxiety isn't the reason, this time.

I can relate to what you said about being a point in a constellation; belonging... being part of something. 2 1/2 yrs ago, I left my tech-team job and this early am my thoughts were of wondering what projects they were up to. I don't miss my N-boss or the dysfunctional institution I worked at. I also don't know what I want to be when I grow up - "who" I am - because I don't feel like have a context,- a landscape, background of life that I fit into, except perhaps that I can always find something to post here! We moved here, two years ago now - and still aren't finished moving; there is still furniture and garage stuff at the old house. It feels like an anchor we're dragging around... holding us back. To hubs, it's a connection he's still not ready to let go - it's where he has "context" in his life. I've always been comfortable being a "gypsy" and moving around; travelling - tho' that's physically taxing on me these days.

Yes, I have a "sewing room" now and fabric and patterns; I haven't unpacked much of that yet. Yes, I have art supplies and brand-new brushes and pencils in every color imaginable... paper that's 25 yrs old (it's rag, so it's still good). I've just finished loading graphics software on the new 'puter; it's 2-3 versions old already; hope it's compatible! But I have no overwhelming desire to make anything of any consequence... and I still won't commit myself to defining myself as an "artist" or whatever... because of all the extra, not-necessarily-true crap that people want to believe belongs with that word/label. I resent people imposing their ideas of what an artist is/isn't on me and expecting me to live up to that idea... and being disappointed or shocked when I don't. I don't like being limited by preconceived ideas... or forced into roles that just aren't me.

But part of what's got me up in the dark, this morning... is this energy to "do something"... get involved in something that I care about. I'm starting to bounce off the walls, literally & figuratively. Because I know I can't really "think" my way to what I sense it is, that I'm craving. All the theories in the world are useless - just talking about it doesn't bake the bread, ya know? Problem is, no one else can tell me how to get there, either. I can't walk down the street and into a store and just buy whatever it is I'm craving... because a.) I don't know what it is or b.) I do this thing where I can see what I want... but it doesn't exist... because I have to make it; no one else has done that, in just that way. This is the time of the morning - before the sun comes up - when I did my best work. Creative tension? Perhaps; it doesn't feel totally aimless.

It's possible that you're in kinda the same situation... and what you're in the process of creating is yourself... the part that's not subject to those limiting definitions. Those normal, anthropo-social-descriptive characteristic words that tell other people about you, that has all their associations glue-sticked onto the words. And ya know, I think it's OK that this is what you're doing right now. I mean, why not? Some people just never get to this stage, I don't think. Some people get there kinda automatically, without any deliberation or consciousness - by accident, I kinda think. There is something different, even quite special about people who consciously struggle with this, make their choices intentionally, who spend the time and invest the energy to create their "self". Polishing, sanding, making the self all shiny, coherent, arranging things "just so"... to suit yourself.

That's another one of those important things - below the surface of awareness - that I think therapy helps some of us do. I sure didn't notice it while I was in the process, actively. But, looking back I think my T guided me to my self - introduced me to her. Helped me get to know her, appreciate and respect her, love her for the wacky, idiosyncratic, weirdo that she is. Once my "self" and I were on the same side, working together... we started working on that other self that people see... all that external stuff, how I relate and communicate with other people, what I do with my time... it's like a deep-down, total consciousness "make over" from the inside out... and it's still changing and that's a good thing.

I think you already know yourself... but now it's a little harder (and there are no hard/fast rules about how to do this) to create that relationship with yourself. I can see why it bugs you (can't find where you said this - maybe it was just the echo in my own mind) that you're expected to adapt to the expectations of "the world" and pretend to be what you're not. I can hear you saying just under the words - under your breath? - that finding that exact "who you are" or creating her - is way more important to you than where you live, or your paycheck.

I would agree with you, 100% - inconvenient and frustrating as the daily realities are and how "over it" you are. Sounds like a bit of creative tension, in your world too. So, take a deep breath... try to bear with the T who doesn't know what you know - about you... and maybe wonder a little bit, if instead of going out and "finding" that belonging and "normal life"... you need to look for inside and design it and build it there first. Dream it!  ;)
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

river

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
Re: Therapists
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2011, 07:02:48 AM »
Boat, From my own long, painful and destructive experiences with Ts, I would say, (tho you said not looking for advice~~~~ but can hardly help myself)....... so what would I tell myself? 
speaking to me of the past from me of the present I'd say: 
.........      dont get trapped, your instincts are right, these people dont get it, protect, preserve yourself, keep reading, keep searching, dont give up, try 5,762 therapists, courses, individuals, if thats what it takes, till you find what you need.  but dont give up, trust you knowing and follow it, investigate it.   Ultimately, if all else fails, give what you need to recieve, ~ but not in a co-dependent way.   Whatever make a rule, never give precious personal information away when its 'pearls before swine', its like haemorrhaging your soul.                       

.......... sorry if that sounds meladramatic, I hate to see tender, real self squandered to crude 'professional hands'.   Im also currently investigating 'the other side of the desk', and deep inside, I cringe inwardly a thousand times when I see or more accurately feel what is being taught. 

............ this is a wild ramble, dont have much time these days, but take what you like, leave the rest....

river

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Therapists
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2011, 01:04:22 PM »
All the theories in the world are useless - just talking about it doesn't bake the bread, ya know?

:o :o :o :o :o 8) 8) 8) 8)
No talking about it doesn't bake the bread but it's the start of becoming motivated to get the flour and yeast out of the closet. Keep rambling it's sure to lead somewhere. That is what a ramble is right, a long, slow, seemingly pointless walk to an unknown destination.


"I can hear you saying just under the words - under your breath? - that finding that exact "who you are" or creating her - is way more important to you than where you live, or your paycheck. " ---THANKYOU for this reflection.

Heya! Whacha gonna make in that sewing room? Quilts/clothes/baby dresses???????



"Those normal, anthropo-social-descriptive characteristic words that tell other people about you, that has all their associations glue-sticked onto the words." Ha HAHA You make me laugh!!!!

Yeah, I have used some intense words to describe myself I didn't have to be so harsh, could have smoothed things out a little bit but I have a propensity towards trying out the harsh and scaring people away...wanted to scare him back a little not 100% away but hey one test other peoples strength of character as well.  8)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 01:28:43 PM by Boat that Rocks »

Meh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: River
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2011, 01:09:04 PM »
Hi, River, I like the wild rambles. There is something intuitive in there I think. The comment about pearls before swine. I've not heard that saying before.  :)