Physical Boundaries with an N?

[KayZee]

Happy Early New Year Everyone,

I'm sorry to post this here on the main board.  Maybe it will help someone else?  Maybe some of you have had the same experience and have some tips?

A new, really troubling problem has presented itself with my NM and it has me feeling really unnerved, almost frightened...

Over the course of the past year or so, I've really emotionally detached myself from NM.  I think she sees and understands that her old tricks don't work on me.  I don't kiss up to her/compliment her/agree with her when I feel the opposite; I don't stand by and listen when she spreads gossip/speaks poorly about other people in our family; I don't forgive her bad behavior, allow the subject to be changed, the second she pulls the weepy "poor me" act; I don't let her interject herself into my finances/family/child-rearing; I don't even fall for it when she gives me rare compliments and niceness, trying to lure me back into her reign of terror.  Basically, I just avoid her as much as possible and, when we are together, I'm tight-lipped and white-knuckled just trying to emotionally protect myself and just "get through it."

Anyway, now that NM sees that her emotional bullying tactics aren't having a visible effect, she's started being really physical when she sees me.  She tries to physically intimidate me: Leans in too close to me when I'm addressing other people, so it's almost impossible to see them around her.  Corners me and bear-hugs me too tight (NM is usually cold/unaffectionate and actively avoids hugs).  Once, over Christmas, she actually leaned her face into mine, like she was going to kiss me on the mouth, but instead she painfully smashed her forehead against mine.  I can't remember what she was saying to me at the time, likely something "teasing" i.e. meanness disguised as love. 

I can't handle this.  I'm really upset.  How do you set and enforce physical boundaries with an N?  I feel like, if I tell her not to touch me, she's just going to do it all harder and more, just the way she does with all the verbal abuse.

I should have been prepared...In a pre-Christmas phone call, she'd put on Oscar-worthy tears and told me that, "The next time she saw me, she was going to need a big hug.  Something to let her know that, no matter what happens, we're still a family."  (Translation: The next time I see you, I need to know that, no matter how poorly or abusively I behave, you'll put up with it because we're family.)  During Christmas, she cornered me in a doorway and said, her tone angry and argumentative, "You know, I'm still waiting for that hug."

Anyway, I'd really appreciate any help and advice.  I'm really at a loss with this one.  It makes me sick to my stomach.

Kay

P.S.- Off topic, but I don't know where else to put it....Has anyone here ever read the psychological thriller "Sharp Objects" by Gillian Flynn?  It features the most terrifying N-Mother.  Many echoes between my NM and her.

[Hopalong]

"I need to not be touched right now.
I don't want to discuss it but if I am pushed
on this, I will be leaving."

Then...she touches. Or "discusses".

You, with dignity and composure, pick up your coat and leave.
(Do it again, any time it occurs.)

It's the only way to teach boundaries to an N.

State your intention and state a specific consequence.
Enact the consequence immediately, without drama.

Hops

[KayZee]

Thank you so much Hops,

State your intention and state a specific consequence.
Enact the consequence immediately, without drama.

I want to tattoo this on my brain, make it my new mantra.

I will definitely be trying this next time.  And hopefully, next time, NM will not be in my house (from which I have no easy escape).  I usually try my damndest to go to her, instead of having her come to me.  When I go there, at least I can leave.

Kay x

[Hopalong]

Amazing that I just read your story update (after I'd posted this).

It was actually quite thrilling. I LOVED reading the refrain.

Sorry you crashed afterward but you know, you really did it extremely WELL.

(Practice. It's all just practice. It'll never be fun but it WILL get easier.)

Another one: ...see Nmother whispering into DD's ear.
Immediate Pick Up DD and (your own refrain)...

You will win this. Just with practice.

(No, you'll never get to make yesterday different. But you are changing today.)

I can hear that this is such a primal, arduous, draining battle, the effort of "No."

I swear, you will grow into it. Then it will be calm.

Have you ever taken a 3-D assertiveness training workshop?
You would love love love this, imo....

Hops

[JustKathy]

This is really interesting. I haven't heard of many NMs who were overly physical. My NM has always acted as if she were repulsed by me. I don't remember her ever hugging me, even as a child. I don't have much to offer in the way of advice, other than to agree with Hops. Be firm with her, and if she won't take "no" for an answer, your best option (maybe the only option) is to leave. Ns don't respond to polite requests. You're probably going to have to force your feelings on her the way she's forcing them on you.

[KayZee]

Hops: Thank you for the advice re: this

Another one: ...see Nmother whispering into DD's ear.
Immediate Pick Up DD and (your own refrain)...

I get really concerned about the way NM deals with my daughter.  It's very antagonistic.  She mocks DD when she cries, tells me DD is "faking," "manipulating" me, etc.  She often finds a way to single DD out, victimize her when I'm distracted with cooking, or the baby or company.  If and when DD sees NM again, I'm going to be more pro-active about removing her from the situation.  If it sets NM off, well then she can screw off and lose any and all right to visit with my children.

My Co-ND is weird with my daughter in a different way, always offering to put her to bed or lie down with her for a nap.  (This makes me viciously angry and uncomfortable.  My childhood home was emotionally/verbally, if not physically, incestuous, and Co-ND's behavior looks pretty darn pedo).  I constantly feel like an angry mama bear protecting my babies from my predator parents.  They strike when DH and I are preoccupied.

Speaking of Ns and grandchildren, I don't suppose anyone has any advice here....My GC and possibly N-sister keeps leaving her almost four-year-old daughter alone at my parents' house for weeks at a time.  (I'm talking one-to-three weeks nearly every month for the past two years.)  Not only is my parents' house not a safe place for kids, but I really worry about the abandonment issues it's likely giving my niece.  What would you do in this situation?  It's nearly impossible to confront my sister; NM has turned her against me and we've hardly had any relationship for going on four years.  I also don't want to make her feel attacked during a difficult time--GC sis is going through a divorce--but it's all going a little Casey Anthony.  Feels like my sister (a young mother) is dumping my niece with my abusive parents because she's tired of being a mother.

Dear Kathy: Our experiences are so similar.  NM never hugged me either (unless it was in public or an effort to pass off some mean taunt as a joke).  There was hardly any physical affection when I was a kid; it was all rough face scrubbing and painful hair brushing.  That's why NM's sudden physicality is so weird.  It doesn't feel like intimacy, it feels like physical intimidation.  It's aggressive, even painful. 

(Oh god, that brings up a memory...maybe NM has done it before.  Right after I got engaged, NM grabbed my left hand and squeezed it so hard I squealed.  Tears came to my eyes it was so painful.  Then she said, "Oops!  Sorry!  I totally forgot you have a ring on that hand now!")

Anyhow, thank you for this reality check.  You're so very right.  Though it's difficult to accept.  I hate conflict and confrontation! 

Ns don't respond to polite requests. You're probably going to have to force your feelings on her the way she's forcing them on you.

[BonesMS]

Thank you so much Hops,

State your intention and state a specific consequence.
Enact the consequence immediately, without drama.

I want to tattoo this on my brain, make it my new mantra.

I will definitely be trying this next time.  And hopefully, next time, NM will not be in my house (from which I have no easy escape).  I usually try my damndest to go to her, instead of having her come to me.  When I go there, at least I can leave.

Kay x

Morning, Kay.

The last time an N attempted to get physical with me, at my graduation when she attempted to rip my regalia apart before the marching, I did tell her, with words, to stop and she continued her physical assault.  (I would classify what both your N and mine did is PHYSICAL ASSAULT if not BATTERY!)  The next thing I did, which worked for me, was that I SHOVED her away while yelling "NO!" at the top of my lungs!

This N also had the bad habit of showing up at my home, uninvited, and parking her car in my neighbor's reserved spot without the neighbor's permission.  I informed her that she was no longer welcome given that she was attempting to force me to do what she wanted.  I also warned her that my neighbor was fed up with her trespassing and is prepared to call the police and the tow truck the next time the reserved parking space is encroached upon.  She responded that she would simply have her disabled mother in the car, then no one would DARE touch her car!  I stated that I would call Adult Protective Services on her!  (She was forced to deal with APS previously when one of her mother's doctors contacted them.  The N was NOT a happy camper about being forced to do the responsible thing.)  When the N realized that she would be forced to deal with the authorities the next time she showed up, uninvited, she FINALLY left me alone!  Thank, God!

Bones

[sKePTiKal]

Kay honey - I was that child, like your niece. You are right to be concerned, but that's also very dangerous territory for you to tread on - at the moment. Most of the time, I was left with my "good witch" grandma... for weeks at a time. And I avoided the "bad witch" grandma as much as a kid can, but was still left there too much for my liking. Trust me - I knew the difference even at a very young age.

Much as I hate to see any kid go through anything remotely similar to my experience, I just don't think it's safe for you to try to intervene yet. Spend some time on you... getting stronger in those personal boundaries... working through the old past sludge of awful feelings, and on to new ones... rework some of the brain habits that keep you chained into FOO-follies... for a bit longer.

You can still think about ways you might be able to engage with the little girl, outside of the normal FOO center of madness. Like have a slumber party and invite her over to spend time with your D. Then, just be the example of the positive caring parent. Absolutely no badmouthing or inquiring about her mom or grandma allowed... just become a safe refuge, where she can be a normal little girl.

The risk I see you contemplating is rescuing the child from the clutches of evil Ns... only to have them direct all their fury at you. And trust me, that fury will be very uncomfortable... no matter how much healing one has done.

That said: if you observe any direct physical abuse... you may be able to report it anonymously. The laws are getting more enlightened regarding neglect, too... but emotional abuse still is too hard to quantify legally; it's still very subjective in definition. And the possibility exists even in reporting - that the situation will get worse for the child before eventually getting better. Others here have better experience with this, than myself.

Please be careful, about getting involved in this. Clear and stated personal boundaries are going to be your best friend, right now.

[KayZee]

Thank you so much for the insight and compassion, P.R.

Hurts deeply to think that you were hustled between homes as much as my niece.

This is a definite: 

The risk I see you contemplating is rescuing the child from the clutches of evil Ns... only to have them direct all their fury at you. And trust me, that fury will be very uncomfortable... no matter how much healing one has done.

I think you're absolutely right.  I'm just gonna keep on keepin' out of it.  Nothing to be done but be an accepting/affectionate aunt in the rare moments when I get a chance.  Even a few times a year, that goes a long way.  If I hadn't occasionally had my own loving aunt (NM's remarkable sister), I can't imagine where I'd be.

Bones: Your NM never ceases to astonish me (in a horrifying way).  I know NM's are prone to trashing special days/rites of passage.  But trying to rip your regalia takes it to a whole new level.  I'm in awe of your strength and conviction.  To be able to shove her off--tell her off--that's no small feat.

I'm deeply relieved to hear your NM has stopped showing up at your house.  What a horrendous violation of boundaries, space, human decency!  If she hadn't I was going to urge you to get a restraining order.  Your strength and resiliency are an inspiration.

Hops: I've ever tried a 3-D assertiveness training workshop.  But I think I could use one.  Are they common?  How did you find them?  What kind of exercises did they teach you?

Kay x

[Guest]

Dear Kay

Assertiveness classes are one thing, how about looking into self-defense for women classes?

When I read this:

Once, over Christmas, she actually leaned her face into mine, like she was going to kiss me on the mouth, but instead she painfully smashed her forehead against mine. 

I thought, what's Kay going to do the day she comes at you, or one of your family, with a big meat knife? Such things happen and they happen to ordinary people; nice, good, ordinary people who don't want to believe they have a complete nutter in the family.

Nutters like yours and mine and so many talked about here, they get worse with age and they lose any inhibitions they might have had.

Your mother is being very aggressive towards you. You must learn to defend yourself, physically. You can stop someone touching you just by holding their arms. You can make a joke of it, say you have an infection so she's not allowed near you, it doesn't matter how you do it - the thing is to be able to do it and know that you're protecting yourself from someone who means you harm. 

Just my opinion.

[Hopalong]

Hi KZ,

A women's resource center or women's studies department, if you persist, should be able to find you that sort of connection, or link to it. I swear, it would be worth driving to another city once a week, that's how valuable a workshop in assertiveness can be.

You may have to look for the hairy old feminists to find one, but I pray they're still happening.



Hops

[BonesMS]

Thank you so much for the insight and compassion, P.R.

Hurts deeply to think that you were hustled between homes as much as my niece.

This is a definite: 

The risk I see you contemplating is rescuing the child from the clutches of evil Ns... only to have them direct all their fury at you. And trust me, that fury will be very uncomfortable... no matter how much healing one has done.

I think you're absolutely right.  I'm just gonna keep on keepin' out of it.  Nothing to be done but be an accepting/affectionate aunt in the rare moments when I get a chance.  Even a few times a year, that goes a long way.  If I hadn't occasionally had my own loving aunt (NM's remarkable sister), I can't imagine where I'd be.

Bones: Your NM never ceases to astonish me (in a horrifying way).  I know NM's are prone to trashing special days/rites of passage.  But trying to rip your regalia takes it to a whole new level.  I'm in awe of your strength and conviction.  To be able to shove her off--tell her off--that's no small feat.

I'm deeply relieved to hear your NM has stopped showing up at your house.  What a horrendous violation of boundaries, space, human decency!  If she hadn't I was going to urge you to get a restraining order.  Your strength and resiliency are an inspiration.

Hops: I've ever tried a 3-D assertiveness training workshop.  But I think I could use one.  Are they common?  How did you find them?  What kind of exercises did they teach you?

Kay x

Thanks, Kay.

To clarify things a bit, the N I was dealing with at my graduation was a former classmate from high school, not the NM.  The NWomb-Donor had already been long dead.  It just took me a while to figure out that this so-called "friend" had never been a friend at all.

Bones

[Hopalong]

Hi KZ,
I just posted "DIY Assertiveness Training" on the What Helps? forum...

Hope it's helpful!

Hops

[KayZee]

Hey Freshwater,

what's Kay going to do the day she comes at you, or one of your family, with a big meat knife? Such things happen and they happen to ordinary people; nice, good, ordinary people who don't want to believe they have a complete nutter in the family.

You're absolutely right on that one.  I should preface this by saying, I know the following is going to sound completely dysfunctional/screwed-up, letting abuse/fear rule my life etc...  But, I maintain minimal contact with NM because I think there would be an EVEN GREATER chance of her coming at me with a meat cleaver if I cut off contact.  If I stopped returning her calls, told her I didn't want to see her, it's not hard to imagine a scenario in which she snatches my children or finds some other way to come after me.

I don't really know how much NM is capable of or if it's all talk, but I've heard her say some really criminal/lawless/violent things in the past five years.  She's talked about plans to take my niece over state lines, violating the terms of my sister/ex-bro in law's divorce agreement in the process, for all intents and purposes abducting her.  Back in the days when NM didn't like my sister's boyfriend, she talked repeatedly about how she was going to hire a hitman to kill him.  Twisted delusional stuff.  But, to my knowledge, just fantasy.  I have heard my enabling Co-N father call her "dangerous" on multiple occasions, but I don't really know if that speaks to her power or his weakness.

[KayZee]

Hi Bones,

Man, you're right there...Definitely no real friend there!  It's hard enough to deal with an N-parent, without drawing N-friends into our sphere too.  It's like they can sniff us children of Ns out...but then I suppose we are drawn to them too (feels familiar).  Anyway, as the years pass and the healing continues, have you found it easier to find friendships with true intimacy/empathy and give-and-take?  I'm still working on this one.  Really hard to open up to friends sometimes, I've had bad experiences w/N-friends too in the past.

Hops,

Thank you for the link!  Assertive language/behavior often feels like Swahili to me.  Mentioned on the other thread, in my FOO there was only aggressiveness/anger or passive stoicism.  Finding something in between is my life-long struggle.  It would be nice to find a place where I could practice being calm but strong and firm.

Kay x