Wail o' the week

[Hopalong]

I'm okay, really. I just was thinking yesterday that how I was feeling at the end of the isolated painful workweek (politics and exclusion at work, boys' club expanding with another young man...boss manipulating the devotees, just trying to hold my balance...feeling older and less secure, but I think it's okay)...anyway, how I was feeling as I drove home in the dark was just a yearning to speak my feelings -- just the feelings -- and I did, partly, on the phone with a friend last night, and thought I'd do it more with my friends here. Take a Tums if you read on as this is just pure complaining (no grace to it).

D:
I feel so sad and lonely without word from my D. I feel partly that it's my fault because I was an enmeshing over-involved, clueless, double-divorced and either depressed-withdrawn or emotionally engulfing mother (read a description of 'closet N' and felt HORRIBLE, so bells were ringing) ... and the other part is I just ache from the sadness of her circumstances. I know she is afraid and angry and depressed and feeling more awful than I can imagine. And I am not the one who can comfort her, and her way of coping and healing is to be so LC with me. And it's okay. I even approve. I understand what's happening. It's just hard. I think because of the holidays -- didn't hear a word from her on Tgiving or Xmas, she doesn't return calls. I did hear from her by email 8 days ago, but that was just because she wanted to track a package I'd sent her. I also sent her money and food, etc. (Piece of me is hurt she never says thank you. But that's not giving unconditionally so I shut that up.) Part of the sadness is ... no family. She's it. He's dead (her Dad), I'm alone, and she's my only child. So there that is. (I will grow around this, build PHamily, and it even may be different one day. But that's the loss I feel.) When I'm feeling most self-pitying, I fear for my old age...either being abandoned by her, or worse (abused or exploited, if she hasn't become well and gotten back in touch with values). But I'm only 61, there's plenty of time for growth in us both.

Me:
I don't function right. I don't exercise every day. I don't eat well consistently. I need to fight hard to get a grip on rebuilding my health. My strength has tanked in the last few years. I often feel frail and weak, physically. I know this can be changed. I worry that I lack the will to do it. That's partly grief over D. And the feeling of isolation in the job. Sort of waves of "give up" come over me, too often.

Home:
My housemate has introduced a girlfriend I dislike. She just appeared and she's manipulative and my radar went off, to the point of paranoia. Part of it's because my tenant/housemate has always been responsible and considerate but impulsive, always falling in love and getting into sketchy relationships. I respect her boundaries a lot and because of the space, we've functioned extremely well in the same building but only a few minutes of interaction in the kitchen now and then--not even every day. The new person just appeared and has been staying here for days, and my housemate didn't discuss it with me in advance, so I felt my privacy was invaded. (Not that new person DID anything...it was just that my housemate went off to her job and left this other person here all day. My private papers etc are all out in the open in my space, and I just don't know anything about the person and whether she'd snoop. So I go off not feeling entirely secure about home.) I'm going to talk to housemate about it this week...she's been avoiding me.

Self care:
Finances is part of this, and taking care of the house. I'm way behind on both. When I come home, I immediately start escaping into bed, TV, laptop and/or reading. I do this all week long. I never, ever, do anything in the evenings to move my life forward. Partly I'm tired, partly I just want to escape. It ain't good.

NOT a wail:
I'm having my usual year-end resolve (spurt of interest) in dating, and have 2 dates set up. No thrills, just a sense that this is another piece of "practice" I should probably do. Normally, I do it a bit in the New Year and give it up.

That's it, dears. Think a whole lot of it comes down to discipline, rebellion, immaturity (at 61!) and such.

It would be just fine with me if anybody wailed about anything here...

xo
Hops

[Meh]

Sigh, I'm reading Hops  


"Got to Kick up darkness till it bleeds daylight" --From song "Lovers in a dangerous time"

I like this, I don't know what the wailing wall is exactly but really every town should have a place to go to just for wailing.

I bet that you are not motivated to "move your life forward" because you don't see or believe there is anything in the future. Well at least that is what gets me. When I realized that hey maybe someday I will go to Hawaii (not too far fetched) I remembered what it felt like to have something to look forward for, to have little dreams, little "wants". maybe we have to play around to find something that inspires the mind enough to care to get through the doldrums and mundane tasks.

Sounds like you are de-energized and uninspired. I know how that is.

[KayZee]

Oh Hops,

I don't think you have to worry one bit about being a Closet-N Mom.  There's no such thing as a perfect parent.  In the short time I've been on this board, your warmth and empathy has helped me on many a horrible day and I've watched it help many others too.  It is very clear to me that you are a caring, compassionate good enough mother, who's done her best to help her D but also respected her independence and given her space.  It sounds to me like you're feeling the frustration that comes with trying to help someone who refuses to acknowledge she needs help/won't help herself.  And that is supremely frustrating; it's maddening.  She's bound to come around eventually.  And if she doesn't, she's missing out.  Just keep being the lovely, genuine woman and mother you already are.

Have fun on your dates.  And send updates!  Practice, indeed.  But sometimes, when you least expect it....something much much more.

lots of love, Kay x

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Hops! I've been hoping you'd post an update along these lines... I've been wondering how the you - who isn't just a role or relationship or function is.

I'm hoping you get to some peace soon, on the D situation. There is no "right" way to be in a relationship... and relationships necessarily change - up & down - close and distanced. I hope that in accepting the reality you could've done some things differently, you're not blaming yourself. After all, your D isn't totally helpless and without some accountability, too. She seems quite bright, despite the MI issues. Continuums... most of the time we're somewhere in the middle, right?

As to health improvement - well, I'm in the same canoe with you... someone was talking in their posts about motivation and I think for me, this is the real issue... and not so much will or determination or persistance. I know I can be an overbearing juggernaut when I'm totally clear about what I want and when I think what I want is worth it; worth fighting my way through my own bad habits and emotional sludge to get to. I wonder sometimes, how much those old N-patterns of relating affect this in us survivors? If, perchance, we absolutely "need" that dysfunctional relationship... a negative simuli... to activate those feelings, strength, and brain circuits?? You know: like a dare - OH... you'll never do that... you can't do that...   A close friend reminded me of the god-awful effects of doublebinds on our motivation, too. She's pretty heavy but otherwise also pretty physically fit. She made a bet with someone that she'd lose enough weight to be bikini slim by spring. Her mom constantly carped at her about losing weight, too... and now that she's watching portions and not eating emotionally... her mom is carping at her about how she doesn't eat enough to stay alive. She feels like there's no "win result"... no atta girl... no matter what she does. But I think we decided that SHE COULD JUST MAKE UP HER OWN and not depend on or care about getting it from mom. Why does this have to come from someone else, for us to think it's important enough to commit to???? (see above; it's what we learned - the "way it was" - with our Ns)

I think we're going to go for a bike ride this morning... which ought to make me realize just how much I've been "giving up" on this front; escaping, too. That's OK, though. Because here's the deal, Hopsy-m'dear... sometimes we have to hibernate; slow everything down like this and pull the cotton wool around us into a cocoon... to get through losses, grief, and even simple drastic change. It's OK that we do this... for a while. It's only when I start hearing the old abusive tapes in my head, that I haven't justified my existence on the planet because I didn't do this, that or the other things... while I'm craving that cocoon, with every fiber in my being... that I'm just totally messed up, miserable, and I start up the old dysfunctional scripts again... like a hamster who's programmed to run a wheel - even when no wheel is there. Then, I tend to cling & hide in the cocoon. So I make it a present moment cocoon... accept it fully and feel how much I needed it... tell the old tapes to piss off... and usually the next day, I feel as though I have more energy again. I think we've "needed" that cocoon for a long time... and that it's somehow related to the motivation above... and while life doesn't give us days on end to cocoon all at once... there's nothing wrong about making time for it each day or once a week... or whatever. The reason why we need the cocoon isn't always obvious.

"Shoulds" are one of the most evil, manipulative and unfair things about how we think, as people, sometimes. I mean who died & made whomever pronounced the "should", Queen??? Shoulds aren't very damn creative, either!! Now, the thought of a rebellious Hops... that's got my creative juices going! I wonder.... what is she like?? I kinda think that rebellion against that's been bad in our lives... is a GOOD thing, don't you?

Maybe I'll join up the disobedient daughters...

[Meh]

Heya Hops, Yes, Good luck on your dates!!!!

That inspires me a bit. Where did you meet these guys that you want to date?? What are they like? Hum 

[Hopalong]

This is a VERY productive place to wail. 
Thanks, y'all.

Boat, that was an amazing lyric. And absolutely bone-clear sight of me. Thank you. Your advice to play, even if it's sort of "fooling" the mind into wanting and caring again...really makes sense for me. Thanks. You're right.

KZ, this may sound dumb but having someone just tell me I'm good, and kind, is really helpful. It's like, that reassurance helps me calm down the critical voice in my head that thinks, oh yeah, you can be compassionate and all, but here are all these lacks (got a legal pad handy?). You just remind me that sometimes it's enough to be as good as one can. Thank you for the kindness.

PR, that's a great anecdote about your friend needing to develop her own "win-result" -- and having that really be all about herself. Amazing what a huge assignment that is for folks with toxic mothers. But that's it, really is. I understand your cocoon thing too and believe there's no "should not cocoon" going on...I just slowly learned that my cocoon was becoming a little like the frog's comfy pot of cold water. I got SO comfortable being isolated and sedentary, for years...that the effort it takes now to haul myself out, is daunting. But I'm doing it bit by bit.

Bones, this time of year I get motivated to meet nice men. So far, for the last few years, I do it a couple times and turn myself off again. This year I hope I'll have more patience with the process. Want neither too little nor too much. So, I'm on an online thing, and nice men send me notes, not a flood (too old, most men rule one out) but enough. This month, I decided to respond to a couple, even wrote to one. So I have a date for a glass of wine with a retired actor this week, after work (that's always the challenge, to motivate myself after a 9-hour day to go do another thing before I get back to my cocoon)...and in a couple weeks another one, a retired professor, who lives a few hours' away so we're going to meet in a town halfway in between. I have another old friend there so she and I will play for a few hours first.

I am automatically skeptical of actors but that's not fair and he's clearly bright and interesting. I really do enjoy meeting people so that part is almost always fun, as long as I just relax and stay in the present. The professor is a widower and pretty nervous, but clearly from his writing a sweet person. So for both, I think it'll be fine. Just practice, just practice... No plan or agenda, I want to actually experience the moments I'm in with them. (When I've done it in the past with a big fantasy--very hard to not have it kick in way before it makes any sense--it always backfires into anxious stuff. Thiis time, I neither want to fall in love nor avoid falling in love. I just want to have the glass of wine and be there. Be present there and then. Not really much before, and after will take care of itself.)

hugs all,
Hops who had a Happy Sunday (but really appreciate the safe place to wail yesterday)

[sKePTiKal]

Sounds good, Hops.

There is a drawback or disadvantage to the cocoon phase - and I struggle with it myself (in case ya hadn't guessed). That is that the only input around me... is me. I'm not always my best friend nor do I always mother myself that well and well, one brain is just one brain and I think humans are designed to function better (brainwise) in collaboration with others. By now, I think I've honed my N-radar skills plenty... and I worry a lot less about falling into another one of those "traps"... so while I'm not exactly knocking on people's doors proposing "lets do something"... I'm also not the shrinking violet, content to just people watch all the time. The fears are diminishing.

I'm getting more and more convinced, that there can be a serious growth spurt in some of us at an age when previous generations just resigned themselves to "who they were" and gave up, let go... all expectations of new and interesting experiences. And the more willing we are to let our old selves (and beliefs about ourselves) go... change... adapt... the more energy there is to "move on", already. I figure, if there are things I've always wanted to do or be... well, at my age I'd best be getting on with doing 'em!! (A sequel, if you like, the first half century's sob story...)

[teartracks]

Dear Hops,

I mentioned a few weeks ago in another thread (don't remember which) how the members on this board had influenced me by example.  So many times, you have been there with your calm words of wisdom from your, kind, understanding heart.  You are consistently comforting and inspiring.   You've set a good example for me as I walked through the fog.  Thank you.  I agree with KZ, all the way.

Love,

tt



 

[lighter]

Hops:

I SO identify with you on the self care, motivation, moving your life forward section: /

I wish we lived closer..... so much easier to address other people's stuff.

For me, everything in the house has some attachment.  Old things.  Forgotten things.  Paperwork things are all charged with emotions, but I'm very good at getting things done for other people, but one box of old photos can derail my day. 

About the housemate situation, I think your roomate should have come to you before having this other person begin hanging out in the space, like a 3rd roomate.  It's one thing to have her there when the the roomie's there.... quite another to just leave her on her own.  Not fair, IMO.

If she wants to move in, that should be a discussion, and it should require another share of rent, and expenses.

((Hops))  Sorry about sadness for d.  I'm really hoping this is a tremendous time of growth for her.

::blowing big wet raspberry at your boss:: 

Jerk.

Happy New Year, my friend, and may your dates be interesting if not just what you wanted; )

Lighter

[teartracks]

Hops,

You know I don't lack for opinions, but they're just opinions not decrees   .

It may or may not be too late to address the situation with your housemate, but if it isn't these are things (in addition to the regular stuff) I'd address in a written agreement.  I don't know how to write in legalese - hope the gist of what I'm trying to say isn't too scrambled.

1)  Requirement for additional people to move in - written consent from me.  If consent is given additional rent at a rate of $_____per person per week/month would be required.  Without written consent, you have the right to collect (a specified amount, say $35* per day) from each additional non-paying person in court at their expense.  2)  Requirement for more than 1 vehicle (per paying renter) to be parked on premesis  - written consent from me.  Without written consent, additional vehicle(s) may not be parked on premisis over night.  Violatior's vehicles would be towed at owner's expense. (3)  Making an exception on any part of the contract does not nullify the contract.

There are lots  of variations on this theme.  The contracts are a way to keep things in decent order.  My experience is that if it isn't addressed in written form with signatures the 'boundaries' get really blurred and feelings get hurt and everyone loses.  

BTW, I think these agreements  should be fair from all sides and they can be.

tt
*  Motel 6 rate!

[Hopalong]

PR, TT, Lighter, Boat, thank you.

PR, I hear you on the growth spurt. I think old age should be incandescent. Well, low-emitting diode, but you get the idea.

TT, your kindness is a freshwater ocean. Thank you. You offer it over and over and I'm each time lifted.

Lighter, thank you for the cheer and the raspberry! I hope this winter feels hopeful and hearth-ful and healing for you.

Boat, date report: The "nice but nervous" professor made a date with another woman, committed to exclusivity with her immediately, canceled ours. I wrote him I felt a little hurt and dismissed (he was cold and formal), wished them well. (Advised him to read--surprise!-- A Fine Romance. Maybe they'll make it!) Ta ta, over that.
The actor was as I knew he'd be: very smart, very interesting. Also very open. Told me a lot about himself and his tumultuous life. Attractive. The kicker: he is alcoholic. Difference: 2.5 years sober, completely clear about it, zero denial, and obviously "working the program." Even so, gives me serious pause. Another: As part of his amends, mentioned writing his ex that he knew she'd experienced him as nearly "malevolent." I asked about that a bit later and he said No, he meant "mean spirited." (Either ain't good; and she doesn't speak to him now.) He's attractive, gracious, courteous and engaging company. Asked me out again. I'll probably go, just to have fun. But perhaps I should make a different judgment. My cautions to myself, which are good to record here:

--if you're active alcoholic for 50 years, you're not fully adult (since much formative time was spent in primary relationship with booze)
--people tell you the truth about themselves when you very first meet them and it's very important to believe what they say
--so, he told me he was mean in his marriage (made clear he was never physical, I believed him). But mean-spirited, which he attributed partly to doing the acting thing...which he said he left because it was so self-obsessive, became loathsome, was shallow, didn't like the way people were so self-absorbed...I believe that too
--so, he told me he was mean in his marriage
--so, he told me he was mean in his marriage (he had a few criticisms of her but then said he didn't want to go there; clearly it was a miserable mess)
--so, he told me he was mean in his marriage

There was nothing mean or cold in his demeanor with me. But that was first date. I also found him quite honest. And, here's the danger zone for me--he has an absolutely fascinating life story. (The writer in me loves the drama.) Oh, I almost skipped the reddest flag of all.

--His mother was crazy. In and out of institutions. So he grew up with that as his strongest female model. A terror figure. Terror and pain. (Only other man I've known with that kind of mother was like an abused dog. Frantic for love but so terrified he'd snarl. I knew I couldn't blame him but also didn't want to take it on.)
--He became hypervigilant (hence, perhaps, a critical spirit? He described "detesting" his lazy son in law, but on further description, guy sounds like a benevolent slacker who is actually a great house-husband and father). Words like "detest" alarm me a bit.
--He's been an emotional wreck in the past.

Positives:
--He's sober.
--He seems to own stuff.
--He has done a lot of work on himself.
--He has a fascinating story.
--He seems to have renounced a lot of awful stuff and desribes his deep contentment with what he does now...a physical job, cowoker a refugee he's been helping and teaching, living in a beautiful place, grandkid-sitting, traveling a bunch (I could see some compatibilities in present lifestyles)

I wonder, though, if my ghosts would fear his ghosts.

Advice welcome!

xo
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

I love the way you pay attention to detail, and to your feelings/intuition/reactions.

It's seems likely you'll enjoy another date, and that you'll continue paying attention.

My advice: 

Don't dismiss any flags, or make the first excuse for poor behavior,

and,

of course.......


remember to enjoy yourself: ) 

Lighter

[Meh]

Your ghosts already do fear his ghosts.

I'm reading Hops!

You inspire me. I would say try to find some additional guys to date at the same time that is the strategy that I get out of my advice articles and dating books. That way you don't put too much weight on any one guy.

I'm glad you had fun. It's intriguing getting to know people even if the person is not a potential partner.

Sorry, but my gut instinct says don't allow yourself to get romantically dragged into this Actor no matter how exciting his drama is.
We are looking for love right? Not the lack of it, not so much drama that it clouds any love that comes through.

Hay but it's all up to you...

Happy to hear about your dating!!! Did you go out for dinner? What did you wear???

[sKePTiKal]

Well, Hops... I gotta say that this former actor-guy sounds a lot like "one o' us" on the board. And perhaps, since there is evidence that he's actively working on his life... blooming later... I could be tempted to give him the benefit of the doubt and maybe even see him on a regular basis for a while... with a lot of boundaries in place, just in case. We are examples of how people can change, right? Other people can and do, too.**

I like Boat's suggestion for you - to date some other guys too - and I would keep repeating to "Sean Connery" that you're only dating at this point... you're not looking for a "relationship" with anyone at the moment (this is a definite boundary) - here's why:

You have enough on your plate right now with "complicated" relationships. Period. You don't need to slide into any new ones.

With that one simple boundary... there is plenty of room to explore, watch, feel, spend time with another person. But, it's YOUR boundary and it helps you remember that the exit is well-lit and only a few steps away. It also reminds him, that he doesn't call the shots... tempers his expectations... and in that one little boundary, tells him you respect yourself enough - to not get lulled into any  situations where strings become attached... until YOU'RE ready. [you can always change your mind later...]


**People can and do change. My hubs had two disastrous marriages, mostly because he so loves women and couldn't keep his hands off. I told him early on... that given the era I grew up in (and my own alley-cat history)... I didn't have a lot of hangups about monogamy -- but that I really didn't want to know about it. I told him to lie to me, in other words. Because I absolutely enjoy being with him, care about him... and as long as he remained in relationship with me... I was fine.

Now, I can't get half a day to myself unless I leave the house!! He has no individual social life, activities... he's stuck to me like glue. Be careful what you wish for???

Anyway, I completely understand that you are being reasonable listening to your ghosts... acknowledging his ghosts... this too, is something that happened early with hubs & me. And it gives us some common understanding and compassion... an emotional comprehension of the other that I guess is one reason why (it's gonna be 12 yrs this fall) we're still together. Understand, I was terrified that my own judgement (given 2 N-exs) was flawed and I was never giddily head over heels comfortable & relaxed... for more than a moment or two at once. But it's been a great 12 years... even with all the life-crap we've been through. It's been way easier to go through it with him right there next to me.

NOW enough o' that... what did you wear, Hops? And - when do you think you'll hear from him about going out again? Is he cute? Distinguished? Does he have a sense of humor, perspective? Does he "play"????

[Hopalong]

I wore a big wooly sweater and black jeans...it was verrrrry cold out.
(It's a luscious sweater.) I do put in some extra effort (no spinach in
teeth, brush hair, nicer clothes)...but avoid making a first date a big
dress-up thing. Because my wardrobe is what it is and I'd rather be
pretty similar to my normal self.

And I just met him at the nice restaurant I've mentioned here,
that I can reach fairly easily on my way home after 9 hours. So...
work clothes. Great food...I devoured my pasta primavera.

Boat, I think your gut is right. My head is attracted to him (the story).
(Forgot to mention he's also physically attractive, fit, lovely shoulders,
lean, and nice face.) Some of his roles have been "senator" etc. He
was a boxer when he was young. Yikes. But...I understood it when
he talked about it. (Never the striking another person part, I'll never
ever get that, but he was explaining how his hypervigilance helped him
be pretty good.) He's masculine. Prrr. Pleasant to be around that.

I think non-exclusivity and dating more than one person for a while
are very good innoculants against fantasy. I don't want to fantasize.
Don't even know if anything will happen "next" and I don't want to
preoccupy with "will he call". It's not important. If he doesn't, that's
good. If he does, that's fine too. I can answer what feels right then.
I can also contact him. Or not. Not feeling internal pressure about it.

He asked if I'd like to go hear jazz sometime and I said I would go.
I gave him my cell number. He urged me to join him on FB, I said,
sorry. I don't feel like I'm waiting for him to ask me out
again. I am just not interested in fantasizing. I'm interested in what
actually happens. Or doesn't. In the present. Seeing what I learn
and how it feels. (The jumpy professor who went off the rails before
we even said hello? I'm relieved. I think he was more self-absorbed
than the actor.)

PR, no signs of much humor or playfulness -- but then, acting is playful.
He was in a major accident and in rehab they directed him to drama therapy.
He fell in love with it. He'd never acted until his 50s and it's remarkable how
much success he had.

I just realized, PR, that what I'm describing is the lack of flirting.
I didn't want to flirt. I laughed and smiled and he did too, but it
was because we were enjoying a pretty animated discussion. He was
telling his life story though...and it wasn't a comical one. So laughs were
brief. But the storytelling, and the listening, were good. He talked a good
deal and I encouraged him to -- twice he mentioned that he didn't want
it to be all about him. That showed consciousness of not wanting to be a
monologuist (and from the other stuff he'd said he's clearly figured out that
he is, can be, was for a long time...self absorbed). I told enough of my story,
much as I wanted to.

I am not grim in approach but I think flirtatiousness and play is too early for
me at this point. I need for two adults to speak clearly and speak a lot, before
that safe feeling kicks in. Slow feels good.

I enjoyed his company quite a lot. And he looked pretty pleased too. So
we'll see. He may chicken out and not follow up. Or I might too. Or not.

I don't feel any pressure about it either way. It was a good thing to do,
whether it was a one-off or not. Just don't know. It's all PRACTICE.

Enough o' that. One date is one date so I don't want to focus much more
on it. I'd say it was a successful experience.

And a good distraction from wailing!

xo
Hops